Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

janab:

[quote]
So if they're going to kill anyways, the government might as well enact laws that legitimize the anti-Ahmadi prejudice too?
...
The constitutional amendment serves absolutely NO PURPOSE other than to give official sanction the persecution and oppression of Pakistani Ahmadis.
[/quote]

This thread has a very specific point for discussion. All other topics about the laws can be discussed in separate threads. But please don't change direction of this thread.

22

You asked in the original post:

But is the intolerance resulting in such massacre, and declaration of Qadiani being non-Muslims somehow related?

I pointed out that the official declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslim, and the resulting laws the blatantly persecute them because of their religious beliefs serve as a sign of government sanction for the "intolerance that resulted in such a massacre."

I'm not changing the direction of anything; you're just refusing to answer basic questions about your pro-amendment position.

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

janab:

quote... serve as a sign of government sanction for the "intolerance that resulted in such a massacre."
[/quote]

Government sanction for intolerance that resulted in this massacre?
The massacre would have happened anyway because of presence of violent militancy in Pakistan.
This is why MOST massacres that have happened in Pakistan were not against Qadianis but against shias, Christians, etc. And there is no law about shias that may be called "government sanction for intolerance that resulted in such massacres".
Your point does not hold due to this above example.

If government approval of 2nd amendment and "intolerance that resulted in such a massacre" are related then why do we see massacres against other minority groups against whom no such law exists?

24

I said its a contributing factor, not the sole cause.

Can you prove to me that there wouldn't have been even worse atrocities committed against the Shias of Pakistan if the government had enacted the same sort of anti-Shia legislation?

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

janab:

[quote]
I said its a contributing factor, not the sole cause.
[/quote]

It can not even be proven a contributing factor. That's just your opinion.

[quote]
Can you prove to me that there wouldn't have been even worse atrocities committed against the Shias of Pakistan if the government had enacted the same sort of anti-Shia legislation?
[/quote]

Shias bear the brunt of these atrocities anyway. Shias are the only reason why these groups came into existence. This massacre of Qadianis is nothing but an exception to this rule.

How can I answer a hypothetical question? "What would have happened if this was true, and what would have happened if that was true". Sorry I can't do that.

About relationship of violent massacres and anti-minority legislation. There are similar laws against shias in Saudi and against sunnis in Iran. Yet there are no massacres happening in those countries.

26

Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

The number of threads and discussions that popped up here and everywhere after this incident is an indication that Ahmedis use every opportunity to play the persecution card.

The mere existence of Ahmedi place of worship and them praying there demonstrates that Pakistanis as a society do not discriminate against them. Yes, a group of mullahs do, but they do that for Islamic sects as well.

27

Khoji Bhai Sahib, I agree that simply making Laws will not help if no one follows them................

But using America as an example will not work either.............their solution for minorities is putting them in "Reservations".............you know all the Indian Reservations...............that is an Original American solution!

seems to be working for over hundred years now!

Do you think it will work in Pakistan too?

28

Why should the government be asking people about their religion in the first place, let alone declaring anyone a kafir. There are two instances where the government actually needs to ascertain the religious orientation of an individual in Pakistan.

1) When someone is contesting for the post of the "President of Pakistan". Our law requires a person to be a Muslim to become the "President of Pakistan". This requirement is totally unnecessary and discriminatory and should be abolished at once if we want to become a civilized nation. Every citizen of Pakistan should be equal in the eyes of the state irrespective of their religious, ethnic, racial orientation.

2) When someone is going for hajj the government of Pakistan ascertains the individual is actually a muslim. If Saudi Arabia has no objection in allowing Ahmadis to perform hajj... this situation also becomes irrelevant.

Other than these why does the government/state/individuals need to know if a person is a muslim, non-muslim, kafir, ahmadi, atheist , or whatever. If this information is totally irrelevant from state's point of view than why open this Pandora box by declaring someone a kafir officially.

I remember a few years ago there was a move to eliminate the column of religion from Pakistani passport. It was an excellent initiative by then government, which was sabotaged by extremist in our society who want religion of private individuals to become a state business...!!!

29

By your logic, Muslims do not face discrimination in India or even in British India. Also, France does not do any discrimination as well, right?

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

Ahmadies are not Muslims. That is fact. Regardless, the amendment should be removed.

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

Yes. Indians, British and French societies do not 'whole sale' discriminate against Muslims. We won't be selling our souls to get a British or French passports if they did, would we?

Some policies on a government level might be discriminatory but they do not reflect a society's sentiments as a whole. I agree that the provisions in our constitution are discriminatory but Pakistanis in general do not 'hate' Ahmedis. We all have friends and colleagues from that community and I never felt specific hatred against them.

Regardless of that, I also believe that they overplay the persecution card.

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

January 2010 : suicide bomb blast Lakki Marwat volley ball ground 105 dead, 160 injured, almost all who died were sunnis

January 2010: suicide attack Hangu, 2+a minister killed (agan killed were sunnis and shias)

January 2010: attack in Kashmir 14 killed 17 injured (dead sunnis)

January 2010: Gomal, waziristan, car bomb blast 4 dead all sunnis

Janury 2010: car bom blast Khar Bajaur, 20 dead, 30 injured all sunnis

February 2010

Lower Dir suicide attack, 10 killed, 70 injured (all sunnis)
Karachi shia mosque attack, 33 killed 170 injured (all shias)
Khyber Agency suicide car blast 13 killed 5 injured mostly sunnis
Bannu suicide blast, 12 killed 20 injured mostly sunnis
Khyber agnecy, suicide bomb blast, 41 killed, 60 injured mostly sunnis
Mengora suicide explosion, 6 killed, 13 injured mostly sunnis
Peshawar rocket attack, 4 killed , 6 injured mostly sunnis
Karak, suicide attack 4 killed 6 injured

March 2010

Hangu, suicide blast 12 killed 25 injured, mostly sunnis
Lahore FIA building 13 dead, 60 injured, mostly sunnis
Mansehra suicide blast 6 dead, 7 injured
Bara Qadeem, suicide blast 5 dead
Lahore market blast 57 dead, 150 injured mostly sunnis and shias
Swat suicide blast 13 dead, 37 injured mostly sunnis
Quetta bicycle bomb 3 dead, 14 injured
Khyber agnecy , attck on frontier corps, 6 dead, 11 injured

April 2010

Lower Dir, suicide blast 44 dead 100 injured, almost all sunnis
Peshawar US counselate attck 50 dead, 110 injured
Quetta shooting 10 dead 35 injured mostly shias
Kohat car bomb blast 12 killed 37 injured, mostly sunnis
Peshawar car blast 23 dead, 50 injured
Peshawar car blast 4 dead, 11 injured

May 2010

mengora market suicide attack 2 killed 10 injured
mansehra market blast, 4 killed 1 injured
peshawar roadside bomb blast 3 killed, 2 injured
dera ismail khan cycle bomb blast 12 killed 15 injured
Quetta bomb blast 2 killed 16 injured
Quetta attack on policeman 4 killed
attacks on Ah,mediyya 98 killed 150 injured
attack on Jinnah hospital 5 killed 6 injured

Based on these attacks on majority groups in last 5 months only forget the last decade, it does appar they are overplaying this attack.

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

Iconoclast,

By your logic, Kashmiris can also be accused of overplaying the atrocities against them because some other group like Chechens have more people killed recently.

None of the attacks you listed targeted a particular group for their faith. You combine the state persecution with these attacks and it is hard to blame Ahmedis for "overplaying" their situation.

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

If Kashmiris were blaming chechans for atrocities then i would have agreed with you.

35

How many attacks have taken place against Qadiyanis/Mirzais/Ahmadis in the last 3 years?

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Re: Qadianis use Lahore massacre as excuse against 2nd amendment

this attack may have been connected to the wider conflict in pakistan. ie the militants attacked identified targets, plus those around them just like all groups in pakistan do inc the army, and the us drones. obviously the only reason for this suspicion is the hamid mir tape, but then again it could have been a mere hate crime

however, i urge for these attacks to stop but i hope the mirzai community can see that these current laws also protect them. it would be awful to find out how people would react if the amendment was changed. especially during the current period of instability, its best if the mirzai community keep a low profile. - current ground realities

37

Wow they used this logic against the Jews during the Holocaust too. Turned out real well for them. But heres too hoping we too get a country from the West like the Jews.

Ok lets say it is true for the sake of your argument that Ahmadis are using this incident as an excuse against the 2nd amendment even though the amendment had nothing to do with the attacks.

So what? The amendment is an unfair, unjust piece of legislation. This incident puts a spotlight on these laws that limit the freedom of thousands of people. If they want to use it as an excuse to achieve justice, then they should. It doesnt change the bottom line which is the 2nd amendment is bad. The government is obligated to protect and treat everyone fairly and equally regardless of whether it is secular, Islamic, Jewish, etc. It is not the laws job to define religion. If people want to do that they can (although they shouldnt), but the law in any circumstances cannot.

You need to look at the bigger picture. This is not just about 94 martyred Ahmadis. This is also about other minority communities. This is for the Christians, Sikhs, and Hindus too. We have to make sure that the sacrifice of these people mean something. That they didnt just die. They left an impact and responsibility for us.

So if Ahmadis are making a lot of noise, its because they are taking this opportunity to advance their right and the rights of all minority groups.

And it is my sincere hope that you always remain part of the majority and never have to deal with anyone denying you, your basic liberties and being subjugated to any kind of persecution.

38

You have such a two dimensional mind Khoji...

39

What is the point of this thread? Are you saying the law should not be repealed? Are you saying they are not Muslims and thus should not be making such requests? Or are you supporting their call for the removal of such laws?

So everyone agrees that Laws are just words written on paper. What next?\

I suppose if Ahmadis have read anything, unlike you, they would know that Jinnah said "religion is not the business of the Govt... "
So they are completely justified in asking for a repeal of this law, which is a blatant violation of this tenant, even if it only has cosmetic effects on the level of intolerance towards them.

40

You know that for a fact? You think Amir Liaqut, among many others, who sanction the murder of Ahmadis are also murdering Sunnis and Shias? Many of those people who consider killing Ahmadis as being Islam sanctioned, have no record of ever having attacked any other community.

Its this endorsemnt by TV "pundits," and the govts own recognition of this discrimination as legal and valid which promotes violence.