Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
I'm saying that since religions have no proof, adherents of religion should either avoid religious debates (because otherwise it just comes down to, because I told you so), or admit that they believe in spite of logic or proof, and show some acceptance of those who can't simply believe because they've been told to.
this is true. but to many religious people, to accept this basic idea is equivalent to disrespecting their faith.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
Proving existence of God is as difficult to prove as proving existence of pain except that it truely exists and can very well be felt by the one who experiences it. Likewise, same can be said about feeling of happiness, sorrow, or anger.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
this is true. but to many religious people, to accept this basic idea is equivalent to disrespecting their faith.
Which is the sad part. My argument is not to disprove someone's belief or get rid of religion, rather, it's to promote acceptance. I think humans have an inherent need to believe in a deity, or something larger than themselves. Religion won't be eradicated. Acceptance and tolerance might be.
Proving existence of God is as difficult to prove as proving existence of pain except that it truely exists and can very well be felt by the one who experiences it. Likewise, same can be said about feeling of happiness, sorrow, or anger.
Pain can be measured, or verified, by changes in the nervous system or in the brain. Sorrow, pain, happiness, are associated with activity in certain regions of the brain. If we consider happiness to be a "thing", then of course we can't see it. If happiness is a state of being, then it can be observed in humans. Belief can be seen, but it can't be verified.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
Why does HE the Supreme Ruler not use a more effective communication tool to give his message to the humans in a more direct and provable way?
.
what could be more effective than to send a human messenger.?
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
Pain can be measured, or verified, by changes in the nervous system or in the brain. Sorrow, pain, happiness, are associated with activity in certain regions of the brain. If we consider happiness to be a "thing", then of course we can't see it. If happiness is a state of being, then it can be observed in humans. Belief can be seen, but it can't be verified.
So, I want to understand if there can be any observation made in regards to changes in the nervous system/brain when someone explains the existence of God and that he feels God exists. Can feeling that God exists also make nervous system/brain to show some sort of signs?
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
what could be more effective than to send a human messenger.?
That God paid us a visit Himself.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
That God paid us a visit Himself.
Hmm, then God has to do it with each and every human, paying millions and millions of visit everyday forever, cause why would I trust you if you tell me that God came to you last night. And then at what age of an individual, God should pay a vist? at 14, 18, 21, or some other age? What if person died before God could pay him a visit?
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
hahahah fluffmaster!!!!!!
Peace sharaabee,
Its oky if u don't believe/disagree with other members but laughing at or calling someone fluffmaster is like mocking to another person. Hence this is discussion thread not cafe so such impression is not acceptable here. If you don't have anything useful related to this thread, I suggest you to leave rather than mocking to others.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
Hmm, then God has to do it with each and every human, paying millions and millions of visit everyday forever, cause why would I trust you if you tell me that God came to you last night. And then at what age of an individual, God should pay a vist? at 14, 18, 21, or some other age? What if person died before God could pay him a visit?
Wo sub tau chorein, I wonder how He would prove that He is actually God. Miracles won't work as the history tells us.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
There were 1 lac 24 thousand messengers & we don’t know about all of them… May be Allah has sent messengers on those nations too you mentioned but we did not actually know about any of them as there were 1 lac 24 thousand messengers … You said the last 4 prophets were descended in vicinity of Arabia but we don’t actually know how many came in between them & where ( obviously before Hazrat Muhammad SAW) … 
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
[quote="TLK, post:16, topic:252924"]
Hmm, then God has to do it with each and every human, paying millions and millions of visit everyday forever, cause why would I trust you if you tell me that God came to you last night. And then at what age of an individual, God should pay a vist? at 14, 18, 21, or some other age? What if person died before God could pay him a visit?/QUOTE]
Doesn't GOD control when someone's time is up? If yes then the bolded part of your post doesnt make much sense.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
That is why I asked when God should visit. If God is suppose to visit a person at age 18 then either people are not going to die before 18 or everyone who dies before 18 would be considered a sinless person as he never got the message directly from God.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
I mean no offense, but you are implying that you believe in spite of logical inconsistencies and a lack of proof. You may "feel" God, but how are you to know if this is not something like the placebo effect? You "feel" God because you've been told your whole life He exists and the thought gives you comfort, so you have convinced yourself that it's true.
And the proof of burden lies with the claimant. If I were to say that there is a flying bowl of spaghetti around Saturn, it would be up to me to prove it. Despite all that, I'm not saying there is no creator. I'm saying that since religions have no proof, adherents of religion should either avoid religious debates (because otherwise it just comes down to, because I told you so), or admit that they believe in spite of logic or proof, and show some acceptance of those who can't simply believe because they've been told to.
Peace Ghost14
No offense taken, but this question is out of context and presumptuous and somewhat not coherent in the way it has been formulated.
When I said ad hominem - I meant that sharaabee is appealing to ridiculing me instead of answering my questions. The questions that he should have asked himself before saying that "life being a test is a sick a joke" ...
Assumptions I have already made in my discourse are that he already believes in a Divine Creator - so the response you have given does not share the context that I have been using. Next you say that I believe in spite of logical inconsistencies - that is not true I do not believe there are any logical inconsistencies here. However, I do believe that faith cannot be logically proven and I have "proven" that my belief system does not make a claim to being able to "prove" God - What it does say however is that as per Qur'an "That it is a guidance for the God-Conscious" i.e. it guides those people who are already convinced God exists. All the verses are called ayaat or stars or signs and signs give direction - they do not prove things to you.
Alas I can show how I reached my conclusions and rely on:
a) The other parties sense of genuineness to try to listen and understand and reflect
b) Allah (SWT) to give that person a sense of enlightenment
I do not claim to have proof of God, but I do have proof that what I believe to be from God does not claim to PROVE God to us - merely shows us signs to His Wisdom. So the highlighted in red from your quote above needs to clarify what it is that I have to prove - rather what is my claim - that "God exists" or that "assuming God exists, will our Creation be pointless"? And it was the latter that I set out to demonstrate.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
So, I want to understand if there can be any observation made in regards to changes in the nervous system/brain when someone explains the existence of God and that he feels God exists. Can feeling that God exists also make nervous system/brain to show some sort of signs?
That proves that the person believes that there's a God. There is a study which shows that when Apple fanboys look at Apple merchandise or pictures of Apple merchandise, the same areas of the brain light up as when religious people view pictures or things related to their beliefs. Interesting no?
Hmm, then God has to do it with each and every human, paying millions and millions of visit everyday forever, cause why would I trust you if you tell me that God came to you last night. And then at what age of an individual, God should pay a vist? at 14, 18, 21, or some other age? What if person died before God could pay him a visit?
That is why I asked when God should visit. If God is suppose to visit a person at age 18 then either people are not going to die before 18 or everyone who dies before 18 would be considered a sinless person as he never got the message directly from God.
How about a Prophet who performs miracles sent every generation? Jesus and Moses both performed miracles to show the power of God. The Greeks, Romans, and Vikings all have stories about their Gods and miracles, do you feel convinced when you read about Achilles?
If belief is so important, then God should simply make it so that everybody believes in Him, because otherwise, and according to the beliefs of the believers, God made me as I am. He gave me the intellect or willingness to question things.
Also, I'm not sure about sharabee, but my point was that the authenticity of religions, and claims by religions, can't be verified. Many intellects (Einstein, Jefferson, etc) respected the awe and wonder of nature, and believed in a higher power. They just didn't believe that there was something inherently holy about drinking water with your right hand.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
Peace Ghost14
No offense taken, but this question is out of context and presumptuous and somewhat not coherent in the way it has been formulated.
When I said ad hominem - I meant that sharaabee is appealing to ridiculing me instead of answering my questions. The questions that he should have asked himself before saying that "life being a test is a sick a joke" ...
Assumptions I have already made in my discourse are that he already believes in a Divine Creator - so the response you have given does not share the context that I have been using. Next you say that I believe in spite of logical inconsistencies - that is not true I do not believe there are any logical inconsistencies here. However, I do believe that faith cannot be logically proven and I have "proven" that my belief system does not make a claim to being able to "prove" God - What it does say however is that as per Qur'an "That it is a guidance for the God-Conscious" i.e. it guides those people who are already convinced God exists. All the verses are called ayaat or stars or signs and signs give direction - they do not prove things to you.
Alas I can show how I reached my conclusions and rely on:
a) The other parties sense of genuineness to try to listen and understand and reflect b) Allah (SWT) to give that person a sense of enlightenment
I do not claim to have proof of God, but I do have proof that what I believe to be from God does not claim to PROVE God to us - merely shows us signs to His Wisdom. So the highlighted in red from your quote above needs to clarify what it is that I have to prove - rather what is my claim - that "God exists" or that "assuming God exists, will our Creation be pointless"? And it was the latter that I set out to demonstrate.
I don't agree with his insulting you. There is no need for that.
Fair enough, you do not claim to prove God exists. I'll put my question bluntly:
How do you know that the Quran (or Bible, or Torah) are from God, and not man made?
The lifestyles outlined in religious books might bring you peace, they might make you feel as if you're closer to God, but they may also be man made.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
That God paid us a visit Himself.
This situation could not occur ... It is like trying to entertain the idea of God becoming man ... For the Infinite to render before us in this finite realm before even the veils migrated here we would faint if not get annihilated in the process ... Seeing the existence of God will bring us into a state of worship - our choice will be removed ... This is not effectively testing out ability to "choose" to believe in Him ... By sending us men - we can judge those men for their character and qualities to see their authenticity and license from God - They are from us and we are readily accepting of those who are from us ...
The idea of belief is to choose it not to be put in a situation where we would have no choice but to fall prostrate before God ...
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
I don't agree with his insulting you. There is no need for that.
Fair enough, you do not claim to prove God exists. I'll put my question bluntly:
How do you know that the Quran (or Bible, or Torah) are from God, and not man made?
The lifestyles outlined in religious books might bring you peace, they might make you feel as if you're closer to God, but they may also be man made.
God's message should be consistent - according to my own rationale
God's message should be miraculous
God's message should be something that a human could not replicate
Without talking about the Torah and Bible since we cannot look to the actual books in this day and age, we can indeed look to the Qur'an ... so this Book fulfils these points and furthermore it does more than this:
It not only fulfills these points but makes mention of these points within itself literally claiming that it does these things.
I feel its truth and appeal to others to follow at first blindly to what I have experienced, but the process of faith is iterative:
Ok it starts with an initial assumption - or lets say a small risk to be taken ... This risk can be reduced by looking at the history of the message carrier. Muhammad (SAW) was well known for his truthfulness and trustworthiness. Trusting him would make total sense ... So he asked us to believe that the Qur'an is from Allah (SWT) and he asked us to believe he (SAW) is a prophet. Now, since the people of his time knew him very well they would know what resources he would have or not ... yet still being able to receive revelation that was superior to the most learned poet yet he himself being a lay man unlettered made it seem unimaginable for that to happen. A small step towards him is then taken because he earns your audience and ear and then at each stage more things are disclosed about reality you assess them against your reason and slowly but surely you gradually edge towards truth and belief ...
No one is asking to make a huge leap of faith - but at least accept the given ... and then operate on the basis of a common ground - which is also a Qur'anic statement.
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
To gain guidance we need to make a small step towards God and then He will rush to us ... And we need sincerity in searching for Him ... faith is not necessarily a jump in to the ether, but it can be a well calculated gradual assent to the stars ...
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
Many intellects (Einstein, Jefferson, etc) respected the awe and wonder of nature, and believed in a higher power. They just didn't believe that there was something inherently holy about drinking water with your right hand.
And these same intellects conveniently choose to ignore the scientific facts in the Quran. Either that illiterate man living in a cave in the age of jahalat was some closet Einstein some antaryami or just really lucky that all his statements about the creation of the universe, the light of the moon, the shape of the earth, the embryo, the rotation of the sun and whatnot turned out to be amazingly accurate. Let's also ignore many of the predictions that have come true e.g. the preservation of Pharaoh's body.
Dr. Maurice Bucaille, a French surgeon, was a part of the team working on the mummy. Upon finding out that the Quran talks about the drowning of Pharaoh and the discovery and preservation of his dead body, he spent years learning arabic and examining every verse of the Quran. He ended up publishing a book called "The Bible, the Quran and Science" in which he stated that the Bible is inconsistent, the Quran is not. That there are "numerous disagreements" in the Bible but the Quran contains no statements contradicting established scientific facts. He wrote all that while he was still a Catholic. In fact, there is no confirmation that he ever converted to Islam. His research was thorough and unbiased. The book stated that there are monumental errors of science in the Bible but not a single one in the Quran.
Now... to err is human. If the book is indeed man-made, where is the error? We have debated the inconsistencies in religion up to now... how about we debate the consistencies in Quran for a change? How do you explain the agreement of the Quran with established scientific facts and the true prophecies?
You mention Greek/Roman stories of Gods... well according to the same Greek accounts, both men and women can produce semen. There is the scientific error I need to know that the millions of Greek gods and goddesses are false. That particular statement is also made in the Bible so again there is the error (one of many) I need to know that the Bible is corrupted by man. If the Quran was also written by a person(s), and if they were also plagiarising ancient literature, how come they only plagiarised what was accurate (not proven to be accurate at the time)? Unlike the Bible which also plagiarised what was incorrect such as the claim that humans are created like curdled cheese? So why does the Quran go into detail about different stages of embryonic development instead of saying yup curdled cheese it is!
Re: Purpose of Sending Prophets
What part of my opening sentence you did not understand ?