Punjabis "badnaam"....why?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *

I was replying to mad_scientist remark which implied that Jinnah would not approve of such a thread. Punjabis being badnaam is nothing compared to what happened in East Pakistan and Karachi.
[/QUOTE]

Imdad, the Quaid would not approve of a great many things, much more important than the reputation of one ethnic group. Mistakes were made, in part due to the Quaids passing. Maybe if he had lived longer, we would have had a better tradition of democracy. To be fair everything went down after 1965, after that ill fated war. I do not judge groups of people by the actions of an individual.

Uhm, you are seriously all over the place. Your analogies are off on both accounts. Migrants from India ARE NOT treated worse by Punjabis compared to Indians. Compare the standards of living of urdu speakers in both countries and you’ll see for yourself. Guj. Babri Masjid and other anti-Muslim riots are some examples.

Who said that Punjabis dont like biharis, what kinda statement is that?? Do you even know the facts behind it? When Biharis were repatriated to Pakistan, they were forced to settle in Punjab, do you know why? It was because if they were allowed to go anywhere in Pak, they would end up in Urban Sindh, that would shift the trhnic mix of the province, something that had Sindhis up in arms. Punjabis welcomed biharis in past and would surely do the same again.

The problem with oversimplification tends to create these misunderstandings.

Mr.Rajput wishful thinking :silly:

Dont talk about What Qaid would think if he came NOW …AS THIS ARTICLE MAKES OUT HIM TO BE WHAT IN REALITY HE WAS …A REAL ESTATE …

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001607&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

A Work In Progress
by F. R. Khan


The founder of Pakistan, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, was blessed with an acute eye for property and in creating Pakistan, he put Pakistan at a crossroads of three regions; Central Asia, South Asia and West Asia. Jinnah put Pakistan in such a location that the future state would always be involved in the geo-politics of world and could never be ignored, but always cursed.

Geographically speaking, Pakistan is a diverse land with varying climates. It is arctic in the north and arid desert in the south and west, whereas the east of the country is fertile. The people of Pakistan are as different as its geographic differences. From the solitary independence minded people of the north to the commerce inclined people of the south. Pakistani people are as beautiful as the land they inhibit and just as wild and untamed as the landscape that surrounds them.

Jinnah was not only successful in locating a prime piece of real estate for Pakistan, but in his lifetime, he accumulated some highly prized properties himself both in India and Pakistan. His house in Bombay now renamed as Mumbai, but still fondly referred to as Bombay by the Indians, is the subject of an intense political debate between the governments of India and Pakistan. The Indians have it and the Pakistanis want it. Given the fact that the majority of the Pakistanis and Indians have inherited Jinnah’s passion for property and have devoted a significant part of their lives acquiring them, is it the historical nature of the house or its commercial value, which is the real reason for the impasse over the house?

Jinnah was able to wrest the western half of British India and cobble it into Pakistan with the eastern half of the British Raj in India, because he was more British than he was an Indian or a Muslim. Being a British aristocrat without being officially one, Jinnah was aware that politics are best discussed amongst gentlemen in oak paneled clubs of privilege and exclusivity and not from the streets shouting threatening slogans of “Quit India” to the British. From the tips of his shoes to the neatly tied knot of his silk ties, Jinnah with his weakness for ham and whisky was the last person in the British Raj to take up the cause of a separate Muslim homeland. Whatever, the reasons may have been for his taking the plea of the Muslims of India, it was fortunate that it was Jinnah, because the Muslims of India were in no position to challenge the political power of the British and win their independence.

Jinnah’s success in winning Pakistan was that he realized the despite all the ills attributed to the British, the British were a constitutionally minded people and if reasoned, they could be made to agree to a different opinion. Being more British than Indian, Jinnah was not prone to emotionalism. Pakistanis, like their similar minded cousins across the line hurriedly drawn by Sir Cyril Radcliffe, are an emotional lot and their leaders are more emotional and are emotionally motivated in undertaking major political decisions. There is a Chinese proverb, which says that the first man to admit defeat in an argument is the one who raises his fist first. Pakistani political leadership is well known for being the living embodiment of this Chinese proverb. On the other hand, had Jinnah been an emotional person, he might have thrown a Waterford crystal (after finishing its contents) towards the not-so-amused face of the British viceroy and the history of the South Asia might be have been a lot more interesting.

Jinnah, after winning Pakistan, from the British declared that he had no wish for his new country to become a theocracy. After all, the real reason for Pakistan was that the Muslims of India, having debated the wisdom of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, were still resisting learning English and as a result, were economically and politically disadvantaged. At the turn of the century, the Hindus had adopted the ways of the British; just like a hundred years later they would take to water like ducks in adopting American mannerisms, and were politically and economically better off than the Muslims. The Muslims’ of India were convinced of the utility of a partition, separating the Hindus and Muslims, in the wake of the partition of Bengal, because economically it made sense to the Muslims of India.

Sorry some third rate article about the Quaid doesn’t prove anything. Why do you present a coherent rebuttal using your own words. You have claimed many things trhat I find not true, you have failed to give any evidence backing up your statements.

Different, my anger towards that individual who engages in self-hate, I did not intend to silence his views but rather incorrect points that he forwarded. There are plenty of narrow-minded people amongst Punjabis and non-Punjabis..regardless of the case, you lack the cranial capacity to think for your self, which truly pathetic.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

]
Rajput ..dont be evasive be a man & if you are a Rajput :soldier: :soldier:

I WAS NOT BORN NOR DO I REMEMBER AZADI .Instead of re writing history thses are history NOT articles .Dont take opinion or even read this if you know the facts of history already & rebut accordingly .My opening statement stands & everything i will post is to substantiate that .WHAT PART YOU DONT UNDERSTAND???:confused:

There is no harm in knowing facts .

On Maulana Azad: Free India’s Tragic Hero


I believe that Maulana Abul Kalam Azad had the right political
analysis and solution for the problems of the subcontinent – more so
than Jinnah, Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Bose, Golwalkar, Savarkar, Shyama
Prasad, Ambedkar or any other Indian of his time, let aside any of
the British.

Jinnah is today Pakistan’s solitary and rather improbable hero;
Golwalkar, Savarkar and Shyama Prasad are heroes of the Sangh Parivar as is Patel to an extent; Ambedkar’s name is taken by Dalit
politicians; Gandhi and Nehru are faintly remembered in today’s
Congress Party, and Bose is extolled in Bengal.

But I believe Azad’s words and actions were less part of the problem
and more part of the solution than the words and actions of any of
them.

I have personally typed in a statement of his issued on April 15
1946, which he endorsed again ten years later in his biographical
narrative India Wins Freedom.

The initial version of this book was published in 1959 by Orient
Longmans in New Delhi. Certain pages were kept confidential at
Azad’s request for a period of thirty years. In 1988, the complete
version was published, again by Orient Longmans, New Delhi.

I urge Azad’s April 15 1946 statement to be widely read and freely
distributed on the Internet today, to Indians of all faiths, to
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, to any and all citizens and well-wishers
of the subcontinent.

The reason I urge this is not out of any piety towards a neglected
great man. Rather, I am being extremely practical.

If I am right to think Azad had the most profound analytical insight
and prescience of any political man of his time, then the resolution
of key problems on the subcontinent which have persisted since then,
e.g. that of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, may also depend on an
understanding and application of his analysis today.

Azad’s stated (India Wins Freedom p. 197):
“It must be placed on record that the man in India who first fell for
Lord Mountbatten’s idea (of Partition) was Sardar Patel. Till
perhaps the very end Pakistan was for Jinnah a bargaining counter,
but in fighting for Pakistan, he had over-reached himself. His
action had so annoyed and irritated Sardar Patel that the Sardar was
now a believer in Partition.”

This statement formed a basis for my suggesting a game-theoretic
explanation of the roots of the current and continuing Kashmir
problem in “Foundations of Pakistan’s Political Economy: Towards an
Agenda for the 1990s”, edited by W. E. James and Subroto Roy, Sage
1992, Karachi OUP 1993. Recognising the problem to have game-
theoretic roots, itself is a first and necessary step towards a
solution. Jai Hind."

Excerpt from India Wins Freedom by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, released
after 30 years, complete version, 1988, initial version 1959 ed. by
Humayun Kabir, pp. 150-152.

"I have considered from every possible point of view the scheme of
Pakistan as formulated by the Muslim League., As an Indian, I have
examined its implications for the future of India as a whole. As a
Muslim, I have examined its likely effects upon the fortunes of
Muslims of India.

Considering the scheme in all its aspects, I have come to the
conclusion that it is harmful not only for India as a whole but for
Muslims in particular. And in fact it creates more problems than it
solves.

I must confess that the very term Pakistan goes against my grain. It
suggests that some portions of the world are pure while others are
impure. Such a division of territories into pure and impure is un-
Islamic and is more in keeping with orthodox Brahmanism which divides
men and countries into holy and unholy – a division which is a
repudiation of the very spirit of Islam. Islam recognizes no such
division and the prophet says “God made the whole world a mosque for
me”.

Further, it seems that the scheme of Pakistan is a symbol of
defeatism, and has been built on the analogy of the Jewish demand for
a national home. It is a confession that Indian Muslims cannot hold
their own in India as a whole, and would be content to withdraw to a
corner specially reserved for them.

One can sympathise with the aspiration of the Jews for such a
national home, as they are scattered all over the world and cannot in
any region have any effective voice in the administration.. The
conditions of Indian Muslims is quite otherwise. Over 90 million in
number, they are in quantity and quality a sufficiently important
element in Indian life to influence decisively all questions of
administration and policy. Nature has further helped them by
concentrating them in certain areas.

In such a context, the demand for Pakistan loses all force. As a
Muslim, I for one am not prepared for a moment to give up my right to
treat the whole of India as my domain and to shape in the shaping of
its political and economic life. To me it seems a sure sign of
cowardice to give up what is my patrimony and content myself with a
mere fragment of it.

As is well known, Mr. Jinnah’s Pakistan scheme is based on his two
nation theory. His thesis is that India contains many nationalities based on religious differences, Of them the two major nations, the Hindus and Muslims, must as separate nations have separate States, When Dr Edward Thompson once pointed out to Mr. Jinnah that Hindus and Muslims live side by side in thousands of Indian towns, villages and hamlets, Mr. Jinnah replied that this is no way affected their separate nationality. Two nations, according to M Jinnah, confront one another in every hamlet, village and town, and he, therefore, desires that they should be separated into two States.

I am prepared to overlook all other aspects of the problem and judge
it from the point of view of Muslim interest alone. I shall go
still further and say that if it can be shown that the scheme of
Pakistan can in any way benefit Muslims I would be prepared to accept
it myself and also to work for its acceptance by others. But the
truth is that even if I examine the scheme from the point of view of
the communal interests of the Muslims themselves, I am forced to the
conclusion that it can in no way benefit them or allay their
legitimate fears.

Let us consider dispassionately the consequences which will follow if
we give effect to the Pakistan scheme. India will be divided into
two States, one with a majority of Muslims and the other of Hindus.
In the Hindustan State there will remain 35 million Muslims scattered
in small minorities all over the land. With 17 per cent in UP, 12
percent in Bihar and 9 percent in Madras, they will be weaker than
they are today in the Hindu majority provinces. They have had their
homelands in these regions for almost a thousand years and built up
well known centres of Muslim culture and civilization there.

They will awaken overnight and discover that they have become alien
and foreigners. Backward industrially, educationally and
economically, they will be left to the mercies to what would become
an unadulterated Hindu raj.

On the other hand, their position within the Pakistan State will be
vulnerable and weak. Nowhere in Pakistan will their majority be
comparable to the Hindu majority in the Hindustan States. ( NB Azad
could hardly imagine even at this point the actual British
Partition of Punjab and Bengal, let aside the later separation of
Bangladesh from West Pakistan, SR. )

In fact, their majority will be so slight that will be offset by the
economical, educational and political lead enjoyed by non-Muslims in
these areas. Even if this were not so and Pakistan were
overwhelmingly Muslim in population, it still could hardly solve the
problem of Muslims in Hindustan.

Two States confronting one another, offer no solution of the problem
of one another’s minorities, but only lead to retribution and
reprisals by introducing a system of mutual hostages. The scheme of
Pakistan therefore solves no problems for the Muslims. It cannot
safeguard their rights where they are in minority nor as citizens of
Pakistan secure them a position in Indian or world affairs which they
would enjoy as citizens of a major State like the Indian Union.

It may be argued that if Pakistan is so much against the interest if
the Muslims themselves, then why should such a large section of
Muslims be swept away by its lure? The answer is to be found in the
attitude of certain communal extremists among the Hindus. When the
Muslim League began to speak of Pakistan, they read into the scheme a
sinister pan-Islamic conspiracy and began to oppose it out of fear
that it foreshadowed a combination of Indian Muslim and trans-Indian
Muslim States.

The opposition acted as an incentive to the adherents of the League.
With simple though untenable logic they argued that if Hindus were so
opposed to Pakistan, surely it must be of benefit to Muslims. An
atmosphere of emotional frenzy was created which made reasonable
appraisement impossible and swept away especially the younger and
more impressionable among the Muslims. I have, however, no doubt
that when the present frenzy has died down and the question can be

Naqshbandi, so what is your take on the issue? should Pakistan's partition be reversed?

Naqshbandi - how wonderfully muslim of you to throw in a anti-Pakistan article in a discussion on ethnic disturbance between Punjabis and "Mohajirs".

Khair,

  1. Concern has been raised over the term "Mohaajir". Sheesh, you can call them Urdu-Speaking, or Hindustani if you want. I usually use Urdu-speaking...its not offensive.

  2. Secondly, I always thought punjabis and urdu-speaking people get along.

  3. The topic has been visited many times, and NO, Rajputfury, I dont want to get into a debate with you on this one. Lets agree to disagree. The perception I've come across in Karachi is that "Punjabis dominate politics, army, etc - and thus there is a clear favoritism for punjabis over any other ethnicity." Whether you want to agree with that or not, its up to you - I'm not going to argue FOR or AGAINST it.

  4. I'm not very familiar with the perception Punjabis have of other ethnicities, although I've been assured many times by many guppies that Punjabis dont hold any racist feelings against other ethnicities. But EVERY ethnicity has some rotten apples. What are ya going to do? shrugs

RajputFury mentioned this in a different thread on this forum:

West Punjab

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
Naqshbandi - how wonderfully muslim of you to throw in a anti-Pakistan article in a discussion on ethnic disturbance between Punjabis and “Mohajirs”.

P.G. We are purane dost.Kabhi bhal maine apne pyari Gudiya ka dil dukha sakta hoon ?Dont worry apne akhir apne hote haine aur kabhi mere baat per shaq nahi karna :nono: Nono:

Pata hai maine kyon nahi bol sakta maine kaun hoon.Mere hazar dush man haine jaise Usama ke :eek: :eek: :eek:

**RajputFury mentioned this in a different thread on this forum:
Originally posted by RajputFury:
because it is so well known that Ghakkars dominate GHQ in Rawalpindi and they have never denied their Rajput heritage.
**

You are truly a character. Different, do you understand the context? Since you love to post things from other people lert me give you a defination of Context:

con·text ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kntkst) n.
1.The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.

2.The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

Now do know how to read titles?
West Punjab

It doesn’t say West Pakistan, West Baluchistan, East Punjab but rather West Punjab..do you know where West Punjab is located? It is a province of Pakistan.

So when I speak of Ghakkars or some other group dominating the GHQ it is in the West Punjabi context ie., within ALL the Punjabi groups..it’s Ghakkars, NOT Arains, Jatts, or Mirpuris that dominate GHQ. Do you know what GHQ is? It is General Head Quarters for the Armed forces of Pakistan. It contains officers from every part and province of Pakistan, but since THAT was a Punjab discussion, my statement that Ghakkars dominate was under the Punjabi context not a Pakistani one..

You (the individual) are a buffoon of the highest order, go ahead and copy and paste this!

Naqshbandi - how wonderfully muslim of you to throw in a anti-Pakistan article in a discussion on ethnic disturbance between Punjabis and "Mohajirs".

Pyari, I admit some of our discussions have gotten highly charged in the past however I respect you as I respect any other Pakistani. I stand 100% with you in identifying this hypocrite.

1. Concern has been raised over the term "Mohaajir". Sheesh, you can call them Urdu-Speaking, or Hindustani if you want. I usually use Urdu-speaking...its not offensive.

I agree. I like Urdu Speaking or Hindustani. Actualy we're having a discussion regarding this in an other thread join in if you have the time ;)

*3. The topic has been visited many times, and NO, Rajputfury, I dont want to get into a debate with you on this one. Lets agree to disagree. The perception I've come across in Karachi is that "Punjabis dominate politics, army, etc - and thus there is a clear favoritism for punjabis over any other ethnicity." Whether you want to agree with that or not, its up to you - I'm not going to argue FOR or AGAINST it. *

No debate this time, as we have people who are against the concept of Pakistan as a whole. I can assure you that enough people are weorking hard to change your perception.

4. I'm not very familiar with the perception Punjabis have of other ethnicities, although I've been assured many times by many guppies that Punjabis dont hold any racist feelings against other ethnicities. But EVERY ethnicity has some rotten apples. What are ya going to do? *shrugs*

Bingo! We all have good and bad people in every group.

Naqshbandi my manhood was never in question, however your intellectual prowess is in consideration. Don’t post ideologically driven articles and call them “history.” I want to hear what YOU believe in, speak up with your own words. Until then, don’t bother with articles.

In order for there to be a debate, there has to be 2 sides…right now I only see 1 side (mine).

What are you trying to say Rajput?

You know that GHQ is General Head Quarters for the Armed forces of Pakistan. not for Punjab, but Pakistan, and you admit that the Ghakkars dominate the GHQ, how can GHQ be dominated by more than one group at the same time?

Anyways let me ask you this, since you do believe that a specific group of people “Ghakkars” dominate the GHQ even though “it is in the West Punjab context”. Why is it difficult for you to believe that Punjabi’s dominate the Pakistani Army?

In the West Punjab thread, you seem to agree with these statements:

Jatts are probably around 35 - 40% of Punjab’s total population.

Rajputs are around 10-15% of Punjab’s total population.

Now you are telling us that the Ghakkars are Rajputs, you tell us that Rajputs are around 10-15% of Punjab’s population, and you also tell us that Ghakkars dominate the GHQ.

Now if this is possible, why is it difficult for you to accept that Pakistani Army is actually a Punjabi Army?

Finally some original thought :slight_smile:

I’ll answer you point by point.

**What are you trying to say Rajput?

You know that GHQ is General Head Quarters for the Armed forces of Pakistan. not for Punjab, but Pakistan, and you admit that the Ghakkars dominate the GHQ, how can GHQ be dominated by more than one group at the same time?
**

Right! In the GHQ, Ghakkars as group have been dominant for a long time in Pakistani histoy. I am talking about officer level. I think your incorrect when you state that how can only one group be dominant at the same time because that is indeed the case. The Pakistani army in particular is highly centralized (I have said as much before) however it draws largely from N. Punjab and NWFP. I think it’s called 100 miles of recruitment. However, the Army (NOT AF, or Navy) has recruits that are Rajputs, Jatts, Pashtuns, & Hazros. Now coming back to the statement, Ghakkars position has been unique in that they have been a constant fixture in the GHQ. Have you ever been there or have relatives in the military? I do. I know you hate Punjabis, and that’s fine by me, but do not distort my words or make up things by putting them out of context.

Anyways let me ask you this, since you do believe that a specific group of people “Ghakkars” dominate the GHQ even though “it is in the West Punjab context”. Why is it difficult for you to believe that Punjabi’s dominate the Pakistani Army?

Because I know their recruitment. Punjabis/Pashtuns may combine to overrepresent the Army, but believe me there is no conspiracy stoping Baluchi, Sindhis from joining. In fact the Pakistan Navy is already being dominated by Baluchis, unlike you, I think thats a wonderful thing. If one province has more representation in the Navy, it doesn’t bother me one bit because it isn’t “us vs. them.” Something to think about.

Speaking from personal experience, I have experienced racism from Punjabis, who went Pashtun bashing, calling me everything from someone who sells their women to child abusers. Those comments were made quite openly in a group and much to the amusement of the others in the crowd.

Despite that I am proud to say I have very close friends who are Punjabis and I have total trust in. For every bad person I have met, I have also met 10 good people. So generalising is always a bad thing, in the end racism from either side is JUST PLAIN WRONG.

The Pakistani state's structure is generally very racist and discriminatory by nature, and is not helped by leaders going around and using religion and patriotism as their exclusive right. The system we have promotes people who campaign or work to promote those feelings.

What's sad is how much hate is out there, and what's even worse that those people don't really offer any alternative. If the right sacrifices are made and right sensitivity to people's feelings shown, things could improve.

Unfortunately many peoples solution at being wronged is that as soon as they obtain power, they will comit the same acts that they condemn.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Speaking from personal experience, I have experienced racism from Punjabis, who went Pashtun bashing, calling me everything from someone who sells their women to child abusers. Those comments were made quite openly in a group and much to the amusement of the others in the crowd.

Despite that I am proud to say I have very close friends who are Punjabis and I have total trust in. For every bad person I have met, I have also met 10 good people. So generalising is always a bad thing, in the end racism from either side is JUST PLAIN WRONG.

The Pakistani state's structure is generally very racist and discriminatory by nature, and is not helped by leaders going around and using religion and patriotism as their exclusive right. The system we have promotes people who campaign or work to promote those feelings.

What's sad is how much hate is out there, and what's even worse that those people don't really offer any alternative. If the right sacrifices are made and right sensitivity to people's feelings shown, things could improve.

Unfortunately many peoples solution at being wronged is that as soon as they obtain power, they will comit the same acts that they condemn.
[/QUOTE]

Excellent words Zakk! I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sorry for your bad experiences or anyone elses bad experiences with Punjabis, but I simply refuse to take the blame for their deeds nor do I want to see an entire province maligned.

You know what? I have enough dirt on about every ethnic group in Pakistan and beyond, but for me to be characterizing everyone because of the actions of a certain individual is just plain wrong.

In the end, I hope every racist recieves the same treatment from others and feels that pain.

According to my preception PUNJABIs are Badnamed in the pakistani society becasue people tend to generalize them. Punajbi Pakistani forces went to East Pakistan (Banglasdesh) and did the MASS rape in the history of pakistan to the poor bungli females.. ( read the history books for more detail) and then bunglies beat the hell out of our army there.. and then india bombed the hell out of our forces.. as well WE lost the war and Bangladesh!...

So according to the above mentioned histroy people tend to take them as people who are not trust worthy.. umm neither was NAwaz Shareef..

but I would say stop generalizing and start realizing.


COLOR=seagreen]PUT …i dont care for your RAJ …its UN islamic
:nono: :nook:

Yes your manhood is questionable.Rajput or Brahmin that doesnt make you different fromALLAH ka KOI Makhlooq..

Anyone that sticks to caste is NOT a muslim…first thing first …

If you want history written in your house to meet the critieria of not ideologically driven by others WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE PUNJABIS WHEN YOU DONT BELIEVE NON PUNJABIS ..everything doesnt have to be your ideology
!!!