From the language debate in Quad’s speech thread.
Urdu is more heavily laden with persian and hindi with sansikrat, while punjabi with both. Some people think it was due to deliberate effort of muslims to make it urdu distinct from hindi.
We are overlooking the fact that Persian, Sansikrat & Punjabi, from which urdu and hindi have taken so much all have common roots. All belong to Indo-European group of languages possibly originating from a proto-language of 4000BC.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
The language of the Indus valley civilization was sanskrit, but these areas have been part of Persian and Afghan kingdoms for a very long time therefore there is a heavy influence of persian, arabic etc in the sanskrit hence giving rise to Urdu which seems to be of the same language group like Punjabi, Sindhi and Seraiki.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
If the european scholars are to be beleived, language of Inus Valley civilization was a Dravidian language, which is family of Indic languages, while Sansikrat belongs to Indo-European family of languages and was not the language of Indus Valley Civilization. It probably originated in west asia, europe and north india.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
I am not really sure about what the europeans want to prove, but i dont think that sanskrit came from any where. It could have been a language developed between the locals and central asians that is it. As the subcontinent over the centuries has a very long affiliation with central asian invaders (Huns, Sakas, Mongols, Afghans, Turks etc) the only one European who came here as per the history I have read is Alexander. Indus valley civilization precedes that, and before that there was Mehrgarh (7000 BC) and if you go further Soan valley civilization (1.5 million years ago). It seems they want to prove their superiority over the ancient civilizations that existed in this area, bt I have never seen any historical basis to the claim.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
I am not really sure about what the europeans want to prove, but i dont think that sanskrit came from any where. It could have been a language developed between the locals and central asians that is it. As the subcontinent over the centuries has a very long affiliation with central asian invaders (Huns, Sakas, Mongols, Afghans, Turks etc) the only one European who came here as per the history I have read is Alexander. Indus valley civilization precedes that, and before that there was Mehrgarh (7000 BC) and if you go further Soan valley civilization (1.5 million years ago). It seems they want to prove their superiority over the ancient civilizations that existed in this area, bt I have never seen any historical basis to the claim.
Great News that Soan Valley Civilization goes back **One and Half Million **Years.
So wouldn't it be logical to assume that the Language sopken in the Soan Valley was THE Mother of All Languages in the subcontinent..............:)
EID MUBARAK to ALL!
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
The area forming Pakistan now has really old civilizations, much more needs to be done to decipher the history of the land. Eid Mubarak to you too.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
I think SindSagar was trying to say that there was no civilization 1.5 million years ago, that was the time, apes were learning to walk with a straight back.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
people of Indus valley civilization never spoke sanskrit, there was symbolic language which cannot be deciphered till now, sanskrit is language in which most privitive aryan text were written, secondly few of the rituals of harappans are common with hindus, but it can not be said with certainity that aryans and harrapans were the same people
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
Sanskrit is not an Indus Valley civilization language. It is one of the oldest languages in the world.
Sir William Jones a renowned philologist once said :"The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong, indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists."
Sanskrit phrases are widely used as mottoes for various educational and social organizations in India, Nepal and Indonesia:
India: Sathyameva Jayate - “Truth alone triumphs”
Nepal : Janani Janmabhūmisca Svargādapi garīyasi- “Mother and motherland are greater than heaven”
Indonesian Navy: Jalesveva Jayamahe - “On the Sea We Are Glorious”
Aceh Province : Pancacita -“Five Goals”
On a personal note, having grown up in “dravidian” S India, I had the wonderful opportunity to learn sanskrit and feel that it is one of the most structured, logical and beautiful languages I have ever come across. Learning Sanskrit grammer improved my logical and mathematical approach and skills 
BTW, I have been going on and on about Sanskrit and just noticed that the title suggests the discussion is about a language called “Sansikrat”
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
Harappan language is more related to Dravidian languages than any other languages. I remember reading that Brahui language is of dravidian origin. I wonder if these were some of the decedents of the Harappans whose language evolved differently from the surrounding areas and managed to preserve some part of their linguistic inheritance. Any ideas ?
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
^ thanks for the information but the question still remains, then what is the origin of Sanskrit language. I don't believe the aryan invasion theory. which people spoke the language? If you believe that dravidian was an Indus valley civilization language. The Dravidians now have been moved to south India, where as almost all of Pakistan and northern India speak similar languages.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
Alexander came to the region in 327 bc, but I believe Sanskrit predates that time period. Who were the people who spoke this language, and can it be that these two languages (Sanskrit and Dravidian) were spoken side by side?
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
I am not sure that you can exactly pinpoint the origin of Sanskrit. It is only known that it was widely used in present day Pakistan and Indo-gangetic plains of India in the classical eras. There does not have to be an "Aryan Invasion" to promote usage of the language. Which is older? Avestan lang of Iran or classical sanskrit of the Vedas ? If you read both the vedas and the Avesta, u can see many similarities in the languages. Maybe both were different dialects of an even ancient language that evolved seperately. The Avesta is full of references to the villainous "dewas" and all praise for "Ahuras (Asura)" where as Vedas glorify "Devas"(dewas) and villianify Asuras(Ahuras). In the vedas some initial Asuras were reclassified as Devas later on. This points to a possible ideological shift between the Avestans and Sanskrit speaking people of the subcontinent which led to segregation of tribes and separate evolution of language and culture. So Sanskrit most probably originated in the Subcontinent.
The romani language incorporates many words in sanskrit and the Gypsy were believed to have originated in the subcontinent.
Another thing to think of is that the world had fewer people. There has been enough proof regarding trade between sumerians , Ancient romans and Greeks with Indians. Mitraism orignated in India and spread to Iran and from there to the west. Mitra was a vedic God. So people had to have some form of communication to establish trade and exchange ideas so may be they had many words in common which were borrowed form the other languages and were later incorporated into their own. So may be this way we can see some slight similarities between say baltic languages and Sanskrit ?
Inspite of all these, I believe that Dravidian languages predated the Indo-Aryan languages.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
^ who are the dewas and ahuras? considering there has been a lot of interaction between persia, central asia and the subcontinent maybe these statements are pointing towards those events or people.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
I am not sure that you can exactly pinpoint the origin of Sanskrit. It is only known that it was widely used in present day Pakistan and Indo-gangetic plains of India in the classical eras. There does not have to be an "Aryan Invasion" to promote usage of the language. Which is older? Avestan lang of Iran or classical sanskrit of the Vedas ? If you read both the vedas and the Avesta, u can see many similarities in the languages. Maybe both were different dialects of an even ancient language that evolved seperately. The Avesta is full of references to the villainous "dewas" and all praise for "Ahuras (Asura)" where as Vedas glorify "Devas"(dewas) and villianify Asuras(Ahuras). In the vedas some initial Asuras were reclassified as Devas later on. This points to a possible ideological shift between the Avestans and Sanskrit speaking people of the subcontinent which led to segregation of tribes and separate evolution of language and culture. So Sanskrit most probably originated in the Subcontinent. The romani language incorporates many words in sanskrit and the Gypsy were believed to have originated in the subcontinent. Another thing to think of is that the world had fewer people. There has been enough proof regarding trade between sumerians , Ancient romans and Greeks with Indians. Mitraism orignated in India and spread to Iran and from there to the west. Mitra was a vedic God. So people had to have some form of communication to establish trade and exchange ideas so may be they had many words in common which were borrowed form the other languages and were later incorporated into their own. So may be this way we can see some slight similarities between say baltic languages and Sanskrit ? Inspite of all these, I believe that Dravidian languages predated the Indo-Aryan languages.
devas and asuras comparing with dewas and ahuras
let me tell you most of the translations done in english doesn't always have same meaning in sanskrit,this words must be coincidence
AFAIK modern day persian language doesn't sound nothing like sanskrit, where as modern day south indian language like telugu sound close to sanskrit especially those long words
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
^ who are the dewas and ahuras? considering there has been a lot of interaction between persia, central asia and the subcontinent maybe these statements are pointing towards those events or people.
Asuras were the deities of the Avestan Iranians and Devas the deities of the vedic Indians. In the earlic vedic period both were Great beings. In the later stages the demonisation of the *Asura*s in post-Rigvedic India and the demonisation of the *Deva*s in Zoroastrian Iran took place implying an ideological shift. There is a lot of similarities between Avestan language or ancient Persia and Sanskrit implying that the development and evolution of the language took place over time but Sanskrit definitely originated in the subcontinent.
Vedic people referred to themselves as Aryas. The word Arya in classical Sanskrit means "noble". Ancient central and northern India was also referred to as Aryavarta, meaning "abode of the Arya". Ancient Persian, such as Darius in his Behistun inscription, referred to themselves as (Ariya), from which the word "Iran" originates (such as Avestan airyanam vaejo meaning "expanse of the Aryans").
The Rigveda was composed in Vedic Sanskrit, which is very similar to Avestan, the ancient language of the Persia. According to the sacred text Avesta, the Ariya lived in sixteen countries, one of them being Hapta Hindu, which is the Avestan form of the Sanskrit Sapta Sindhu (Rigveda), meaning "seven rivers" and referring to the northwestern region of the Indian subcontinent.
The oldest natives of the sub continent spoke Dravidian languages. In The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, the author George Erdosy believes that the majority of early Old Indo-Aryan speakers had a Dravidian mother tongue which they gradually abandoned . Dravidian grammatical impact on the structure and syntax of Indo-Aryan languages is considered far greater than the Indo-Aryan grammatical impact on Dravidian. So may be when the Indo-Iranian tribes parted ways with each other due to ideological differences, the sanskrit speaking tribes integrated with the dravidian speaking people because of which Dravidian grammer influenced the development of structure and syntax of Sanskrit further and led to the development of a more refined language.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
The language of the Indus valley civilization was sanskrit, but these areas have been part of Persian and Afghan kingdoms for a very long time therefore there is a heavy influence of persian, arabic etc in the sanskrit hence giving rise to Urdu which seems to be of the same language group like Punjabi, Sindhi and Seraiki.
Another thing to note is that even though parts of present Pakistan and Afghanistan were part of Persian Empire, there was wide spread use of Sanskrit for a long time. Under Darius I or Darayava(h)ush (519 BCE – 485 BCE) there are inscriptions that refer to Persian relations with India. The Behistun rock inscription (ancient Bagastana "place of Gods") dating back to 519 BCE includes Gandhara in the list of his subject countries. The epigraph of Nakhsh-i-Rustam shows India as the 24th province of his empire. It was believed to be the richest in Darius's empire. Inspite of being ruled by Persians, this period saw the emergence of Paanini the greatest Sanskrit Grammarian form Gandhara whose work raised the level of Sanskrit language to a whole different level altogether. So I don't think Persian was forced on the people either in administrative form or specially patronized. I am not sure if there is any such proof of preference towards Persian in the courts. I think it was only in the Mughal period that persian was made the sole official court language and local people were "encouraged" to learn it. So in a way it was the muslims who incorporated persian more into their language. Despite the heavy " influence" of Persian on Urdu, linguistically, Urdu is not an Iranian language, it is an Indo-Aryan language.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
Both persian and sanskrit are thought to have evolved from one proto-indo-iranian language.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
Tamil, a Dravidian language was the precursor of Sanskrit. Most of the other languages came from Sanskrit.
Re: Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi/Sansikrat
Another thing to note is that even though parts of present Pakistan and Afghanistan were part of Persian Empire, there was wide spread use of Sanskrit for a long time. Under Darius I or Darayava(h)ush (519 BCE – 485 BCE) there are inscriptions that refer to Persian relations with India. The Behistun rock inscription (ancient Bagastana "place of Gods") dating back to 519 BCE includes Gandhara in the list of his subject countries. The epigraph of Nakhsh-i-Rustam shows India as the 24th province of his empire. It was believed to be the richest in Darius's empire. Inspite of being ruled by Persians, this period saw the emergence of Paanini the greatest Sanskrit Grammarian form Gandhara whose work raised the level of Sanskrit language to a whole different level altogether. So I don't think Persian was forced on the people either in administrative form or specially patronized. I am not sure if there is any such proof of preference towards Persian in the courts. I think it was only in the Mughal period that persian was made the sole official court language and local people were "encouraged" to learn it. So in a way it was the muslims who incorporated persian more into their language. Despite the heavy " influence" of Persian on Urdu, linguistically, Urdu is not an Iranian language, it is an Indo-Aryan language.
Interesting do you where I can find more information about the Behustan rock inscription and Naksh e Rustam?