Punishment for homosexuals (?)

Society Religion & Philosophy
121

Seminole, where did I say that I only have sex to procreate, although, judging from my triplets...I should not have any or that is what my wife says :). I was just trying to make a point.

Seminole do you believe in Jesus and his words? What does it say about homosexuals in the First Testament and for that matter in the bible?

Matty, I see what you are trying to convey, however, the fact remains that homosexuality has been and will continue to be unnatural (GOD, Let Republicans be in charge of House and Senate...always. Ameen).

I think we should define what is natural. To me, nature is breathing, eating, drinking, sleeping, etc. Getting an erection or developing feelings for another guy is not natural similarly getting wet after taking a glance of a hottie is not natural. Its unnatural, when you mess with nature, certainly the consequences are disastrous. Look, I can tolerate gays, however, I will never allow the minority (less than 2%) of US population dictate to me that they have special rights. Democracy is about majority, one man one vote. They are in minority and will continue to be in minority for quite some time (unless of course Kerry wins the next election, than all bets are off):)

122

Kaleem, the question is whether they should be killed not whether they should get special tax privileges. There are idiots here suggesting that killing homosexuals is the way to go. (happy niudniks???) Now I don't think for one educated minute you want to be lumped in that bucket of religious thuggery.

123

Matty, I am not advocating killing anyone. I am sure they will reap what they have sewen (i dont know if its a word). I hope that Allah and Ram give us the strength to call spade a spade.

124

Let me try to summarize the discussion so far, either as a conclusion of sorts, or an interim point from where you can continue the discussion.

1. You-Must-Be-Kiddin'-Me Group:
On one hand we have a group of people who say that yeah, so what if Old Testament or Quran condemns homosexuality, that ruling is not practical right now, so should be discarded. Every human being has a right to life no matter what their sexual orientation is.

2. Kill'Em Group:
Another group is convinced that since the divine text is clear and there are ahadeeth to to support killing homosexuals, so the question is redundant. That homosexuals should be killed.

3. Not-My-Problem Group:
The last group is basically on the fence. They think that yeah, ok so there are the rules about homosexuals, and they would probably be tried just for being homosexual, but, you know the whole killing thing... thats a bit too much. Only a true Islamically approved government can make such decision, so we should not worry too much about it. Its not our problem.

125

Kaleem
Allah and Ram.....hunh.
If you are a muslim then I suggest that you go back to the basics about Islam and study up on tawheed(Oneness of Allah). There is no god but Allah(swt) and Mohammed(saw) was his servant and prophet.

126

Let me add one more group here Faisal Bhai. Maybe someone agree with me as well.

4. Homosexuality is a sin but not a public crime for which a state [Islamic or otherwise] can prosecute the offender

Just like Namaz is faraz, but not offering the prayers do not justify putting people in jail. Just like being unkind to your spouce is an immoral sin but you can't hang someone for it. Just like modesty is required by Islam but no being modest doesn't make you a criminal.

The old testament might have ordered homosexuals to be stoned but Quran makes no such directive.

127

^ Yeah, not Quran, but some have posted ahadeeth to support killing homosexuals; and for those who believe in Ahadeeth, this is good enough too.

128

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
**4. Homosexuality is a sin but not a public crime for which a state [Islamic or otherwise] can prosecute the offender*
[/QUOTE]
By the way, what is the significance of "public crime". If, lets say, someone is committing incest with his sister in the privacy of his home, and there are the required number of witnesses available, does the (Islamic) state has any right to press charges? Why or why not?

129

kill homosexuals to make them lesson for others who commit this huge sin...these poor people need tohandle very strictly...and kiling of homosexual is right from islamic point of view....

130

^ As soon as I start to feel the pain for Muslims that perhaps their religion is getting a bad rap, I read posts like these and the pain turns to indifference.

131

IMO, if the incest was mutual, you can’t really press charges, otherwise it will come under rape. Though if the display of it was public, then the most severe charge can be public indecency.

If you really want to look at it from a law and order point of view, then it becomes a public opinion debate, similar to polygamy, capital punishment, slavery etc. All nations around the world make laws dependant on how many people agree to it. Polygamy is allowed in some countries [and cultures] and it’s not allowed in others because in each of these countries the majority of the public disagrees or agrees with this practice based on their own views. Now if tomorrow countries on either side decide to go the other way [or a dictator makes them] then the laws can change.

I support that such issues should be decided by the public on which the laws will be governed using a ballot box rather than by some law makers in legislative branch or the judiciary branch of any government. Because in the end, it’s the people who are to abide by the laws. There should be a debate on it from all points of view, be it religious, social behavior, human rights etc. and then the people decide what should be done about it. If the majority of people accept an heretic behavior as a norm then it should become a norm, until someone or something changes their mind & the majority of them start considering it abnormal again.

132

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
^ As soon as I start to feel the pain for Muslims that perhaps their religion is getting a bad rap, I read posts like these and the pain turns to indifference.
[/QUOTE]

I feel sorry for you guys. Islam has rules, is the fastest growing, makes sense and is natural. Hearing something from you who worships just about everything makes me sad at your state of affairs.

133

^ Guys, please focus on the topic at hand. For personal insults etc, please step outside. Thanks :)

134

Other political stuff (who passes law etc) aside, lets follow-up on your thought process on public (vs private, I suppose) crime, so that maybe we can be clear as to what you are saying.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
IMO, if the incest was mutual, you can’t really press charges, otherwise it will come under rape. Though if the display of it was public, then the most severe charge can be public indecency.
[/QUOTE]
What do you mean display is "public". If you mean that only a public shagging classifies as "public" then it is certainly a new interpretation.

What about a couple goes around the community and everyone knows that they are actually brother-sister who have "married" each other or a "mother-son" has "married" each other, so you think society has any responsibility to implement laws on such things, or is it deemed a private immorality? Are these people contributing to moral decadence? Some may say "yes". Or what about a prostitute who has sex for money in the privacy of your room? Does the society has any responsibility to check this behavior? If they don't, then why even the most advanced "free" societies in the world, including US, have such strict laws against prostitution? Its all a private immorality, right?

135

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zman: *
Kaleem
Allah and Ram.....hunh.
If you are a muslim then I suggest that you go back to the basics about Islam and study up on tawheed(Oneness of Allah). There is no god but Allah(swt) and Mohammed(saw) was his servant and prophet.
[/QUOTE]

Zman bhaijaan, matsui believes in Ram so he is going to pray to him, I believe in Allah and I will pray to him. Is that a problem?

136

KILL ** HOMOS**

KILLHOMOS

KILL ** HOMOS**

KILL ** HOMOSKILL ** HOMOSKILL ** HOMOS**:smiley:

LET ME QUOTE AGAIN:
Lesbian activist Camille Paglia offers the following observation:
Homosexuality is not “normal”. On the contrary it is a challengeto the norm…. Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule. That is the norm. Our sexual bodies were designed for reproduction…. No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous…homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait….We should be honest enough to consider whether homosexuality may not indeed be a pausing at the prepubescent stage where children anxiously band together by gender….current gays can’t insist that homosexuality is ‘not a choice;’ that no one would choose to be gay in a homophobic society. But there is an element of choice in all behavior, sexual or otherwise…:nahnah:

137

^ It defeats your argument and you lose any moral high ground when you put up repugnant posts like this.

Do you even know anything about the woman you are quoting? I assume not, as her ideas are extremely radical and as far from Islam as you could probably find. If we are to believe her point of view regarding this then do we believe also that the prositute is figure to be admired becuase she is in control of her sexual power and therefore has power over men? How does her argument advance the Islamic point of view?

138

^ Pick and choose, my dear Seminole. Pick and choose.

139

the killing thing, is it for muslim who commit homosexuality or non muslims?what is islamic law about non muslims who do it? quote the source please.

140

I see that 'No' votes narrowly won with 21 votes compared to 18 'Yes' votes. The poll is now closed, by the way.

So, what did we accomplish, if anything?

The close vote clearly shows that there is enough difference of opinion on this topic. The question was deliberately kept a bit ambiguous. For example, even if one believes that homosexuality is a sin and a crime and the perpetrator must be killed, we don't explicitly ask who should do the killing.

Those who answered 'yes' likely have the following opinions.

The natural answer from most muslims would be that a true Islamic government will implement Islamic jurisprudence that would try anyone accused of homosexuality and if convicted will punish them with execution. And since we don't have a true Islamic government implementing Islamic jurisprudence, at the present time, so the answer becomes dicey.

Presumably, none of us would recommend that individuals take it upon themselves to start killing homosexuals without a due process of law and trial. That would cause anarchy.

Those who voted 'No' would presumably have the following two opinions.

They say that let Allah punish the culprits just as he punished the nation of Lut, and why do we, human beings, interfere in divine punishments. In my opinion, from an Islamic stand point, this view is on shaky grounds, cz then you can have the whole criminal system suspended and let Allah decide on every individual "crime".

The last group, and we always have such a group, that says, homosexuals have as much rights as anyone. Its just a mental state and they should be allowed to live their lives like everyone else. Their homosexuality is their own business, and none of our concern.