Punishment for homosexuality.

Note: I am only starting this topic on a request. Some members wished to debate this topic.

ahmadjee here is a (edited) fatawa from islam-qa.com.

Praise be to Allaah.

The Muslim should not doubt, even for an instant, that what Allaah has prescribed is wise. He should know that there is great wisdom in what Allaah has commanded and what He has forbidden; it is the straight path and is the only way in which man can be safe and at peace, protecting his honour, his mind and his health, in accordance with the natural disposition (fitrah) with which Allaah has created man.

What is mentioned concerning these actions in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

A – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

**[al-A’raaf 7:80-81] **
*

*B – “Verily, We sent against them a violent storm of stones (which destroyed them all), except the family of Loot (Lot), them We saved in the last hour of the night”

**[al-Qamar 54:34 – interpretation of the meaning] **
*

*C – “And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?”
**
[al-A’raaf 7:80 – interpretation of the meaning] ***

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘You commit Al‑Faahishah (sodomy the worst sin) which none has preceded you in (committing) it in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)’”*

[al-‘Ankaboot 29:28]


*D – “And (remember) Loot (Lot), We gave him Hukm (right judgement of the affairs and Prophethood) and (religious) knowledge, and We saved him from the town (folk) who practised Al‑Khabaa’ith (evil, wicked and filthy deeds). Verily, they were a people given to evil, and were Faasiqoon (rebellious, disobedient to Allaah)”
**
[al-Anbiya’ 21:74 – interpretation of the meaning]


*E – “And (remember) Loot (Lot)! When he said to his people, ‘Do you commit Al‑Faahishah (evil, great sin, every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse, sodomy) while you see (one another doing evil without any screen)

Do you practise your lusts on men instead of women? Nay, but you are a people who behave senselessly.’

There was no other answer given by his people except that they said: ‘Drive out the family of Loot (Lot) from your city. Verily, these are men who want to be clean and pure!’

So We saved him and his family, except his wife. We destined her to be of those who remained behind.

And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). So evil was the rain of those who were warned”
**
[al-Naml 27:54-58 – interpretation of the meaning]


These verses refer to the punishment that befell the people of Loot. With regard to the rulings on them:

F – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning]:
*
“And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, hurt them both. And if they repent (promise Allaah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allaah is Ever All-Forgiving (the One Who forgives and accepts repentance), (and He is) Most Merciful”
**
[al-Nisa’ 4:16] ***

Ibn Katheer said:

*“The words of Allaah ‘And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, hurt them both’ mean, those who commit immoral actions, punish them both. Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him), Sa’eed ibn Jubayr and others said: By condemning them, shaming them and hitting them with shoes. This was the ruling until Allaah abrogated it and replaced it with whipping and stoning. ‘Ikrimah, ‘Ata, al-Hasan and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Katheer said: This was revealed concerning a man and woman who commit fornication. Al-Saddi said, it was revealed concerning young people before they get married. Mujaahid said: it was revealed concerning two men if they admit it bluntly; a hint is not sufficient – as if he was referring to homosexuality. And Allaah knows best.”
**
(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/463).


G – It was narrated that Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him): “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘There is nothing I fear for my ummah more than the deed of the people of Loot.’”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1457; Ibn Maajah, 2563. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 1552).

H – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… cursed is the one who has intercourse with an animal, cursed is the one who does the action of the people of Loot.”

(Narrated by Ahmad, 1878. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5891).

I – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1456; Abu Dawood, 4462; Ibn Maajah, 2561. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 6589).

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

There are two different discussions merged together. 1) Is homosexuality moral? 2) What is the punishment for those who commit it? I do "not" wish to debate on the first, as I have firm belief that according to morals presented by Islam, homosexuality falls as an immoral act. Those who wish to question or discuss it can open another thread. :~)

For punishment part, please put forward your arguments while I cross check the references provided by ammar.

ammar, Thanks for starting a thread and also the link.

Not directly related, but I would like to add that stoning to death as a punishment sounds extremely barbaric. IMHO, public executions tend to give people the idea that killings are okay and people's lives are trivial. Such things go a long way towards the labelling of Islam as being violent and cult-like by others.

Maybe I picked it up here, but someone raised a point that just because God punished a bunch of homosexuals, that doesn't give muslims the right to prescribe a stoning-to-death punishment for homosexuality...

Any thoughts?

From the Qur'an we all know that such acts are forbidden. But why start a debate about the punishment? Do you people have someone locked in your basement awaiting the verdict of this thread?

Seriously, I think that as long as we know it is bad, debating the punishment is a little pointless unless we are all amirs, or qazi's.......

The link posted above primary tries to address the issue that homosexuality is immoral but lacks in content when it comes to the argument of what should be done to those who are inclined towards it. Opinions of some of the scholars are mentioned but they are just that, opinions.

The Quranic verses mentioned state that Allah punished the people of Hazrat Loot (as) by raining on them a special rain. In Surah Al-Qamar Allah mentions storm of stones while in Surah Al Naml a kind of evil rain in mentioned. If these verses are interpreted as "stone the homosexual" then I have the following arguments:

1) It was Allah who brought on them the punishment, not Hazrat Loot (as) followers. In other words, Hazrat Loot (as) didn't stone them, Allah did!
2) There were other sins that the people of Hazrat Loot (as) committed apart from being extremely homosexual. They repeatedly rejected his call towards God & persecuted him and then drove him & his followers out of the city.
3) Storm of stones or Rain of stones can be taken metaphorically. If taken in a literal sense can either mean very heavy hails or meteors, which again are Allah's punishments not something man made.
4) There is a difference between homosexuality as a characteristics of a nation (whom Allah punished as a nation) and an individual transgressor.

The only hadiths that mentions the punishment is: "It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”
My argument:

1) Hadiths is Sahih, but as always there is a difference between Sahih & authentic.
2) There are two kinds of Hadiths, one where AnHazoor (saw) performed an act according to his sayings ie: sunat, while others which are only sayings. My belief is that Sunat has precedence over Hadiths and there is no mention that AnHazoor (saw) ever punished someone to death for homosexuality.
3) There is no date or period mentioned in the hadiths, nor there is a mention of a certain instance or a case brought to the Holy Prophet (saw). This could might as well be a question that AnHazoor (saw) answered. AnHazoor (saw) followed the Jewish law as long as Quran was being revealed. According to the Jewish law (Leviticus 20:13) the punishment for a homosexual is death.

Homosexuality is a moral illness that defys the natural laws of Allah. The people of Loot (as) were punished by Allah & those who in this day and age are transgressors of the same kind, Allah will punish them as well. We have already seen the disease of AIDs being the most prevalent among the homosexuals. Maybe Allah has other plans as well, only He knows best. I, for one, will not try to punish someone whom Allah has taken upon Himself to punish.

Disclaimer: These are my personal views which I don't hold absolute.

It is amazing for me to see that people still look at AIDS as some kind of divine retribution for gays. COnsidering most of the afflictants across the world are heterosexuals.

Homosexuality has been around since the begining of time. A lot before islam. From the egyptians to the greeks to the romans to the islamic caliphates, it has been prevalent. As far as punishment of stoning. I think this is a desert phenomenon of a biased people who are held in ideal due to religious conviction. DISCLAIMER: These are my views and are based on rational thought

Whenever AIDS is talked about in reference to homosexuals, it is the relative terms that are intended. The number of homosexuals (and bisexual) population of the world compared to the number of their community who have AIDS is far more than the heterosexuals. Also, the number of AIDS is primarily prevalent in those nations where sexuality & sexual relationships are openly embraced as a norm and where sex is advertised compared to those nations were sex is considered something private between two individuals.

Also, if my statement implied that all victims of AIDS are cursed by God or anything similar than it was sure enough not the intention. Many poor souls are born with it & others get it not for their actions but because of the carelessness of hospitals etc.

Really? India and china are very conservative countries and most afflicted are heterosexuals so this whole concept of sexual frivolity equating with aids is a bit odd.

The reason aids is a scourge is not because of sexual preferance or frivolity, it is due to lack of education and people with closed minds sticking their heads in teh sand instead of educating themselves.

The rise of aids as a trend is going down in the US whereas it is rising in ASia, a far more conservative place.

75% 80% of all HIV infections world-wide result from heterosexual intercourse. Most of these are in Africa.

And as far as the "moral" issue. I know gay people (I live in the decadent West) that show more morality, kindness, monogamy, thoughtulness, helpfulness and charity than many heterosexual people I run in to.

80% might be heterosexual but the majority of them got AIDS due to lack of better health care systems & careless drug usage & needles. Later their children inherited it & are increasing because of high birth rate in those Sub Saharan African nations. Similar is the case in Asia. According to the surgeon general of the US, the majority of new cases reported in the past years have been of gays & bisexuals.

While one solution mentioned is safe sex, the religious groups regardless of which western religion they belong to, preach abstinence & celibacy as a solution. Which in my opinion are far better & effective way to fight AIDS.

Morality is a very general term. Some people are good to others while having no regards for their own kin. Good father but bad boss, good boss but terrible husband etc. Similarly, some nations are good to their own while cruel to others.

Anyway, it's more so a discussion of homosexuality from a moral point of view which I didn't intend to discuss.

Aids has nothing to do with sexual preference. Same with syphliss. I did attend a seminar on treatment of "conditions" due to homosexual sex (medical school). I do make a distinction between lesbian sex and homosexual sex. The biggest objection I have is that a tremendous amount of painful conditions result for homsexual men because of the insistence of some of them to using the anal canal for purposes that clearly it was never designed for. Lesions, hemmoroidal ruptures, blood poisoning due to fecal contamination etc. is known to have a higher incidence in the homosexual community than the population at large. Having said that, I also think that those communities that implement sex segregation at an early age end up with the young male members having homosexual sex without "being" homosexual. The distinction between the homosexual who "is" a homosexual and the male who does "homosexual sex" because that is the only kind that is safely available to him should be kept in mind when communicating across cultures with very different mores on sex.

ahmadjee,

[quote]

The only hadiths that mentions the punishment

[/quote]

004.016

YUSUFALI: If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.

SHAKIR: And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

[quote]

Opinions of some of the scholars are mentioned but they are just that, opinions.

[/quote]

It is mentioned that the Prophet Muhammad sallalahu'aleyhe'wasallam said that the best generation would be the one after him (tabi'een) and the one after that (taba-tabieen). Hence importance is given to the point of views of those scholars. But ofcourse their views are based on sunnah, so I'll try to see if I can find some exact references to the punishment.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, kill them, the one who does it and the one two whom it is done.” (Narrated by Ahmad, 2727; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ al-Sagheer wa Ziyaadatihi, no. 6589).

Imaam Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.” (Reported by the four authors of Sunan. Its isnaad is saheeh. At-Tirmidhi said it is a hasan hadeeth).

Brother Ammarr, please read your own post :slight_smile:

If you “Kill them” how are they supposed to “repent”, “improve” ??? I see this hadith in contradiction to the Quranic verse :confused:

It can be argued that “as a last resort you kill them”, but what do you do before that??

Changez, for one I'm no scholar, and I certainly dont wish to debate. I'm only putting forward the statements from the Quran and the Sunnah which deal with this issue.

Nowhere is it said to stone them as wished. Allah is oft-forgiving. In my view, killing IS the last resort, before that any means such as prayers, counseling etc can be used.

ammar,

[quote]
It is mentioned that the Prophet Muhammad sallalahu'aleyhe'wasallam said that the best generation would be the one after him (tabi'een) and the one after that (taba-tabieen).
[/quote]

I have read the Hadiths that talks about the Sahabah being the best of the nations due to their righteousness that they attained following Quran & Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw). Though, I have never heard of the Hadiths that declares the "tabi'een" & "taba-tabieen" as "best generation". I would really like to know the source of you claim.

Secondly, who gets to decide that the person accused will not repent anymore & should be put to death? Does refusing to repent once, twice, thrice suffice? What is the garentee that he might not repent his ways in an old age?

The verse you quoted is interpreted differently in different fiqhs. Some relate it to the verses regarding adultery, while others have different understanding on the term "punish them".

Lastly, what prompted me to ask you to show your references was because you were very firm on the ruling that the punishment for homosexuality is death, nothing more or nothing less. "... execution through sword, stoning to death, or being dropped of a high place." Now it seems you only consider it as a last resort. :)

I hope you understand my difference in opinion even though you might not agree with it.

ahmadjee, regarding the 'best of generations' Hadith, it'll be in your PM. You can check up on the references.

and I'm still firm on my claim about the punishments. If I'm allowed to quote my words from the thread in Corner Room, I said.

[quote]

It would be against any islamic ruling, however, to pick and stone very gay out there(when their orientation isn't their fault). Infact it is an obligation to be kind and supportive. Physcological treatment, and sincerely asking Allah subhanaho-wa-tala for help have in the case of a lot of muslim males, killed the issue off in a majority. However, if someone insists on being a deterrent to society, thats why the punishment exists.

[/quote]

you said,

[quote]

Secondly, who gets to decide that the person accused will not repent anymore & should be put to death? Does refusing to repent once, twice, thrice suffice? What is the garentee that he might not repent his ways in an old age?

[/quote]

Certainly not me. I believe a trained Qazi who is thorough in his understanding of Religion, and human nature can make that call.

[quote]
The verse you quoted is interpreted differently in different fiqhs. Some relate it to the verses regarding adultery, while others have different understanding on the term "punish them".
[/quote]

Ofcourse. I've heard that the Hanafi madhab does not advocate any punishment at all. I'm reading up on it.

The only reason I took this up in the Corner room because, if nothing, people were insistent on marking any punishment against homosexuality to be discriminatory.

Hamza Yusuf has a talk where this issue comes up and he says something akin to this:

" Although the punishment in Islam for homosexuals is death, ...........the conditions are so stringent that in reality its very hard to get such a result. There has to be 2 witnesses to the act, and that too includes penetration..................."

So basically its very hard to enforce a death penality on the issue-altough he goes on to narrate that if the act is jept behind doors then the punishment may be less. Allah forgive me if I mis-relay the mans words, but I think I'm accurate in this recital of sorts.

i dont know if u guys are awared but recetly in a magazine i was reading tat there was a muslim guy in washington. he was very religous but was leasing a dual life. he used to go to the mosque daily and pray. but he was secretly homesexual too. but later he opened up the fact to his family and they rejected the idea. so he still continued on both ways and opened up an organizataion of home muslims. and as i remmerb it has already 1700 hundred members in the us and all over the world. the muslim dude was indonesian or malaysian.

ithink tat it is disgrace to muslims. homosexuality is the biggest sin. its highly immoral. and even if muslims wanna be homos they should not bring islam into it.

You cannot be a gay muslim, if your homosexual your out of the fold of Islam-this is not a debatable issue. This is the reality of deen-ul-haq.