It’s more than 8 years since we were involved in two wars in balochistan and against taleban. More than 35000 people have been killed in sectarian and terrorist acts during this period, so what’s the report card for the government?
How many people have been arrested, prosecuted and punished?
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
Not enough. The problem is not punishing the ones that exist. The problem is stopping the new ones from being produced. Dar-ul Ulema Haqqania (i think that is the full name its in Akora Khattak) is by far the largest terrorist producing madrassa in Pakistan and it gets funding from everybody. From people, the military and politicians. Its an institution that is responsible for half the current Afghan Taliban Leadership.
Its places like these that need to be shut down, destroyed and the people in these places killed so they can't spread their jihaliyat elsewhere.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
The thing is that it's really not clear as to if the army has officially abandoned the strategic depth concept or not, as it's becoming more of a strategic death now. Maybe the official line of the military define why they are tolerating dar ul uloom haqqania.
On a side note, the government has so far carried out more than a dozen operations in fata and kp, how many high profile terrorists have been arrested so far? It is important to arrest the top leadership of terrorists who need to be given exemplary punishments to prevent others from adopting that route.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
Even after more than 8 years or so, the leadership of taleban is more or less intact. Only one or two of them are in the governments custody while a couple of them were killed in American drones.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
I personally highly doubt that the military has abandoned the idea. More importantly they feel they are "winning" against NATO in Afghanistan so they were right all along. Regardless of the consequences to the people of Pakistan or the nation as a whole. The one thing I can never credit the army for being is forward thinking or smart a whole.
To my knowledge (just based on media reports) they have not captured or killed any high profile TTP leadership. That is all done by American drone strikes. But then again according to media reports the ISI points out the targets with their own spotters for the CIA. So the question is then how much credit do you give the Pakistani Military?
No need for punishments. Just kill the top leadership.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
The best punishment for terrorists is to show them cartoons, make them bake fairy cakes and sing kum ba ya all day long ... then send them back to teach the others ...
We need to soften the crew, not enrage them even more ...
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
Dear Psyah,
These terrorists have left nothing to ponder in regards to their evil motives. The damage that they continue to cause throughout the region has left our governments with no choice but to counter attack. Their acts of terror have already resulted in thousands of innocent civilians dying on both sides of the border. The time has come for us to eliminate the threat that continues to haunt the region. Do you remember when Taliban were allowed to govern Swat Valley? Remember the hundreds murdered, thousands injured, and millions who fled the not so appeased Taliban? Remember, after many battles and many casualties, how the Taliban were driven from Swat? The Taliban had begun challenging the authority of the government of Pakistan, and that left the officials no choice but to send the military to recapture the lost territories. The bottom line is that we have experienced enough catastrophes at the hands of these terrorists, and we cannot afford to show any leniency towards those who condone terrorism and pose a serious threat to our nations.
MAJ Nevers,
DET, United States Central Command
www.Centcom.mil/Ur
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
Here I agree with CENTCOM. Taliban whatever side, group or religious sub-sect need to be eliminated. These guys are not humans to say the least. Who the hell sends a 6 year old girl to deliver a parcel bomb? Well the Taliban do they did that in Kandahar in the summer of 2011.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
In my opinion, militarily punishing the terrorists is not decisive action to curb terrorism from Pakistan. Pakistan has to look into and tackle three aspects of terrorism simultaneously. If that is not done then terrorism in Pakistan (and also outside Pakistan) will continue whatever Pakistan would do.
Aspect one: that is most important is curbing nurseries of terrorism. That can be done by nationalising and monitoring all Madrasas and Mosques, and making sure that no sectarian or terrorist activities are taught, encouraged, and propagated from these institutions.
Best would be, evolving a syllabus for Madrasas that teaches true teaching of Islam based on Quran, Sunnah, and selected hadiths (hadiths that are not controversial in any way). Similarly, all mosques should have federal government as management and Imams of mosques should be vetted by federal government and then should get monitored regularly. Government should make sure that Imams of all mosques in the country have tolerance towards all sects and should not have any leanings towards terrorists and their thoughts.
Once government would take complete control of Madrasas and Mosques, and whatever comes out of there, terrorist nurseries would get neutralised.
Aspect two: is to enact laws that should make it illegal for anyone in country spreading hate in the name of religion (be that in private residence or community gatherings). For that purpose, any public (or private) speeches, production of printed or electronic materials, or incitation to commit violence in the name of religion, be that under excuse that such is interpreted from Quran or hadith, should be banned. Donating money to terrorist organisations, discriminating or spreading hate in the name of religion or sect, should be banned too. Punishment and fine should be severe for violation of this law.
Aspect three: Government should give job of tackling terrorism to army with special power and immunity from prosecution. Power should be such that, if army finds judges or politicians helping, sympathising, or facilitating terrorists, then army can act against them too. Army while tackling terrorism should not show any leniency and act aggressively without mercy against individuals or groups found in sectarian violence or terrorist activities, with exemplary punishment. Here, even if judges and politicians are found showing leniency or partisan towards these terrorists (that happens a lot in Pakistan), then they should also get punished severely. For the purpose, government should not hesitate to take help from outside forces (NATO, USA, or whoever), if help is available.
All above needs money, will, courage, strength, and commitments. Anyhow, once all three aspects are put in place, I believe terrorism in and from Pakistan would get under control.
I think America, NATO, and other world countries should help Pakistan in this respect if they are really concerned about terrorism originating from Pakistan.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
^ Political will is required for all the points that you have mentioned above.
Even if we leave those points aside for the time being, around 17 offensives/operations have been carried out in FATA/KP. Why has the army not been able to disrupt/capture the high command of TTP? Some of them who were arrested have still not been punished. Sectarian killers and even some involved in high profile attacks have been quietly released.
In most of these cases the military has not properly fought/pursued the cases, and then there are flaws in the 'witness laws' plus no security for the witnesses and the judges dealing with those cases.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
^^^ Sure, without political will and courage, nothing would happen.
As for army not able to arrest TTP high commands, the reason is obvious, that is, army is showing leniency towards them and also that there are people in army with them.
Army may be showing leniency because they are not sure about future political situation in Pakistan, American influences in region, and situations once American leaves, thus do not want to completely end their own influences with TTP. As for TTP having people in Pakistan army with them, that is an open secret.
As for behaviour of courts towards terrorists, the reason is obvious here too. That is, there are many in Pakistani judiciary who are sympathetic to TTP. Those who are not sympathetic are scared of their own life when giving judgments (terrorists are good in taking revenge). Saying that flaws in witness laws are causing terrorists from escaping punishment, that is just an excuse, as same ‘witness laws’ when properly used against other crimes where judges are not scared (nor bought by criminals) and court is willing to punish, becomes quite effective.
That does not means ‘witness laws’ has no flaws, thus cannot be improved, but it is not flaw in ‘witness laws’ that is cause of terrorist getting away from punishment. Other thing is rampant corruption in Pakistan judiciary, investigation, and policing that is cause of many crimes not getting punished.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
I am sorry Saleem. But Aspect 3 is already enforced. Its what the Military and ISI is doing in Balochistan. Its was an act established under Musharraf's regime. Its in most of the "disappearance cases" we have had over the past 10 years. You can't make the military above the law to tackle terrorism. The US has done that in GITMO and nearly everybody says its a violation of fundamental law and human rights.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
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Re: Punishing the terrorists?
Peace CENTCOM
Trust me the best possible counter to terrorism is not to give them more cause to be enraged. We should try to calm them down and listen to them ... infiltrate them with a message of Peace - after all our dear prophet Jesus son of Mary, may the blessing of God be upon them both, stood up to teach humanity this very lesson. It seems despite this you have learnt nothing from him.
Showing terrorists leniency is equivalent to hitting them with force - the greatest blow to terrorism is to use wisdom and kindness. We douse fire with water, we don't expect to put it out by dousing it with more fuel or by fanning the flames. When will you learn? If it is peace that you really want to achieve then you should listen to my advice, not the US administration, they are in it for personal gain - and guess what? I don't cost tax payers anything ... simple - just put down the weapons and give them what they want ... it is not a sign of weakness to do this but a sign of honour and doing it commands respect and love.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
I am sorry Saleem. But Aspect 3 is already enforced. Its what the Military and ISI is doing in Balochistan. Its was an act established under Musharraf's regime. Its in most of the "disappearance cases" we have had over the past 10 years. You can't make the military above the law to tackle terrorism. The US has done that in GITMO and nearly everybody says its a violation of fundamental law and human rights.
CM, war against terrorists is not war against criminals (or freedom fighters), but it is war against aggression towards Pakistan and Pakistani nation. When army fights against such aggression, they cannot be restricted with laws. For instance, if Indian or foreign army attacks Pakistan to occupy Pakistan by force, you cannot tell army defending Pakistan to not shoot them but arrest them and bring them to Pakistani courts for conviction. Similarly, terrorists (TTP as well as sectarian killers) are just like army attacking Pakistan with intention to capture Pakistan and impose their will over Pakistani people by force (just like foreign forces attacking Pakistan), and they should be dealt similarly. Their (TTP and others) purpose is not self-determination or fighting for their own right. If any judge or politicians facilitate terrorists then they should be treated in same way judges or politicians facilitate foreign troops attacking Pakistan.
As for Baluchsitan problem, that is nothing to do with terrorism. Pakistan is a confederation and Baluchsitan is a confederating state. Baluchs do not want to occupy Pakistan or impose their will over Pakistanis. They want self-determination. If Balochs want independence then it is their right, as every human have that right. If Pakistan would like Baluchsitan to be part of Pakistan, Pakistan has to respect their rights and desires, try to win hearts and minds of Balochs, and not use force to subdue them into slavery. So, military action against Balochs is violation of human rights.
As for USA and GITMO, that was violation of fundamental human rights because USA declared them unlawful combatant prisoners, still was not using laws that should be used for unlawful combatant prisoners. They did that by taking them to GITMO, where there are no laws, and hence USA started treating and torturing them as they wanted.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
Here I agree with CENTCOM. Taliban whatever side, group or religious sub-sect need to be eliminated. These guys are not humans to say the least. Who the hell sends a 6 year old girl to deliver a parcel bomb? Well the Taliban do they did that in Kandahar in the summer of 2011.
Peace CM
Are you saying that you would have personally delivered them? Heck no ... Bombs should not be built in the first place ... People shouldn't have to build them ... Getting a 6 year old to deliver a bomb or shattering the lives of many 6 year old girls by raining bombs from the sky is for the innocent caught in the crossfire just one bad thing being replaced for another ... Just stop fighting.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
^^^ Brother, to end war, one has to end greed as well as need. Greed and need is built-in part of humans, thus greed and need will always going to be there on earth, and hence war would always going to be there too. As tool of war, bombs or more destructive elements would always exist. People will keep fighting for their greed, for their need, or for self-defence and self-preservation.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
CM, war against terrorists is not war against criminals (or freedom fighters), but it is war against aggression towards Pakistan and Pakistani nation. When army fights against such aggression, they cannot be restricted with laws. For instance, if Indian or foreign army attacks Pakistan to occupy Pakistan by force, you cannot tell army defending Pakistan to not shoot them but arrest them and bring them to Pakistani courts for conviction. Similarly, terrorists (TTP as well as sectarian killers) are just like army attacking Pakistan with intention to capture Pakistan and impose their will over Pakistani people by force (just like foreign forces attacking Pakistan), and they should be dealt similarly. Their (TTP and others) purpose is not self-determination or fighting for their own right. If any judge or politicians facilitate terrorists then they should be treated in same way judges or politicians facilitate foreign troops attacking Pakistan.
As for Baluchsitan problem, that is nothing to do with terrorism. Pakistan is a confederation and Baluchsitan is a confederating state. Baluchs do not want to occupy Pakistan or impose their will over Pakistanis. They want self-determination. If Balochs want independence then it is their right, as every human have that right. If Pakistan would like Baluchsitan to be part of Pakistan, Pakistan has to respect their rights and desires, try to win hearts and minds of Balochs, and not use force to subdue them into slavery. So, military action against Balochs is violation of human rights.
As for USA and GITMO, that was violation of fundamental human rights because USA declared them unlawful combatant prisoners, still was not using laws that should be used for unlawful combatant prisoners. They did that by taking them to GITMO, where there are no laws, and hence USA started treating and torturing them as they wanted.
Firstly yes they can. Or do you also believe the US army should not be restricted by laws when they fight in Afghanistan? State of war has rules defining it. If the Indian troops surrender they MUST be brought back to court alive and well. The Indians did that for 90,000 Pakistani troops in 1971. Or are you saying the Indians should have shot and killed all 90,000 of those Pakistani troops? Regardless of the actions of the TTP you can not do away with the rule of law or the constitution. That is what Musharraf did and look at the mess we are in now.
The military has used the same doctrine you are prescribing to attack the people of Balochistan. To them it makes no difference. One enemy is the same as the other. The rule of law protects innocent people and puts a check and balance on top of the military. You can not give them a clear path. That will just lead to abuse of power.
Psyah if you want to make peace with a man who used a six year old kid to blow up innocent people doing their job by all means do so. I would prefer to have him tried, sentenced and inshallah given the death penalty. I have no tolerance for anybody who kills kids. American or Muslim. I don't seek peace with them.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
There are rules of war in Islam (regarding women, children, elderly, agriculture plantations and even prisoner of wars) if both parties government and terrorists start using the same kind of tactics it will become difficult to differentiate between the two. Having said that we should punish the terrorists through the law/due course of law.
Re: Punishing the terrorists?
Firstly yes they can. Or do you also believe the US army should not be restricted by laws when they fight in Afghanistan? State of war has rules defining it. If the Indian troops surrender they MUST be brought back to court alive and well. The Indians did that for 90,000 Pakistani troops in 1971. Or are you saying the Indians should have shot and killed all 90,000 of those Pakistani troops? Regardless of the actions of the TTP you can not do away with the rule of law or the constitution. That is what Musharraf did and look at the mess we are in now.
The military has used the same doctrine you are prescribing to attack the people of Balochistan. To them it makes no difference. One enemy is the same as the other. The rule of law protects innocent people and puts a check and balance on top of the military. You can not give them a clear path. That will just lead to abuse of power. ...
CM, I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying that army should kill all and take no prisoners. What I am saying is that, army should not be put under restraint of law when fighting ‘terrorists’ and should not be put under pressure of laws when dealing with terrorist prisoners, as terrorists should be treated just like invading army trying to occupy Pakistan with force. Actually, terrorists are worse than invading army, as they do not want to occupy and rule Pakistan but occupy, rule and enforce their devilish beliefs on Pakistan too.
Let see what you yourself wrote. 90000 Pakistanis surrendered to Indian army (they were not all troops, but almost half of them were civilians). Did India take them to court? No. India did not. India put them in prison without trial and even started brainwashing them. They were released to Pakistan after negotiation in Shimla. Since ‘terrorists’ fighting Pakistan have no country, they have to get released in Pakistan. Anyhow, once arrested, Pakistan army should be allowed to keep them arrested without trial and keep brain-washing them (not torturing them but brain-washing them) as long as army considers it right (until time army thinks that they changed from devil to human).
Let come to USA in Afghanistan: Here USA is aggressor and fighting a war outside USA ... contrary to Pakistan that is fighting war ‘within’ Pakistan against aggressors who are already in Pakistan. So, situation of war Pakistan and USA fighting is incomparable. Regardless, American armed forces in Afghanistan are not restricted by any laws other than their own self-imposed laws. `
As for Baluchistan, I do not think Musharraf did anything what you are trying to claim. What I know (not just from news but also from people on ground), Baluchistan has seen more development work during Musharraf period than anytime before, with more infrastructure, roads, jobs, law and order, dams, schools, water and power facilities, etc. It was first time during Musharraf period Pakistan had Baloch Prime Minister and many federal ministers. Result was that, even though PMLQ lost election 2008 in all provinces, PMLQ came out as largest party in Baluchistan 2008 election. PMLQ secured 19 out of 65 PA seats. Next were independents many of whom joined PPP after election increasing PPP seats to 14 in PA. So, please leave propaganda and come to reality.