Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

I am in Karachi these days and had a chance to visit interior Sindh (Larkana) as well with some friends. Sindh is even more untied on the issue of Kalbagh Dam and Balochistan military operation than it was during the late Bhutto’s imprisonment and hanging. The dam issue goes beyond one person and is literally a matter of life and death for Sindhis as I was repeatedly told. There is almost a complete disconnect between the people of Sindh and its current rulers, not to mention with Islamabad.

The two main points that all the people I talked with keep coming back to are the issues of provincial autonomy and giving back ministries like health, education, and finance to the provinces and doing away with the wasteful dual handling of these ministries.

So, why after 58 years, this demand of the smaller provinces has not been met? And why where the recommendations of the parliamentary committee on Balochistan not followed? Why is the NFC award not based on population and revenue? Why is the water sharing agreement between Sindh and Punjab not followed with it suits Punjab?

The answers to these questions may be more complicated than some of us care to go into, but the feeling one gets is simple. Punjab is trying to subjugate and rule over the rest of the provinces through the denial of economic and political rights. This feeling is pervasive in Sindh at least, including among many in Karachi.

Lastly, I will say that you cannot force people to love a country when you don’t listen to what those people want. The passing of Wali Khan and the immense feeling of sadness all over Sarhad and rest of Pakistan over his death should give pause to the rulers. You can politically shut out people who you do not like, but you can never shut out their cause by denying them democratic means of pursuing their agenda.

All in all, Pakistan is more polarized today than it ever was. All that is needed is a popular cause like construction of Kalabagh Dam to bring to surface the resentment and alienation that people of smaller nationalities currently feel in Pakistan. I just hope it does not lead to violence, but many already feel that is the only way to let their voices be heard in the corridors of power in GHQ and Islamabad.

Re: Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

Rather sad... Musharaf is doing nothing for the smaller provinces except lip service.
Its amazing how disconnected he is from the ground realites especially since he himself is a Karachi Mohajir..

Re: Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

Interesting post K..an interesting perspective on whats going on in Sind..just a few quick points ..a simple abolishing of the concurrent list is probably insufficient as it is..the federal system in Pakistan in Pakistan will probably still be overcentralised with just the concurrent lists abolishment.

Secondly I understand why people in Sind & Karachi want an inclusion of revenue as a source of distribution..but no federal system in the world does that..what is instead done is that the federal government only collects a few federal taxes the rest are collected by the provinces using their own revenue services. Only Federal taxes are distributed through a NFC style mechanism.

Re: Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

Quite an insightful trip Kh!

I agree with you. The issues you raised are those that have been around for years, and continue to grow as sores every year.

It is for reasons such as you mentioned that most objective observers believe Pakistan will not last abother 50 years. After all, you can't keep a people from their wishes forever. Yugoslavia, and even India are examples.

Many people would not beleive this is possible because they are emotionally attached, or are Punjabis who gain most from Pak, but it is the most likely destination for 'Pakistan'.

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If I ignore your personal feelings of animosity against the state of Pakistan, I’m left with these two paragraphs. You’ll get nothing but applause from the people like the fake deal as long as your hatred for Pakistan is strong. In the first paragraph, you talked about 1- provincial autonomy and 2- ‘giving back ministries’. I agree with you. The units of federation should manage these things themselves, and the the gov’t (headed by an Urdu speaking general who deposed a popularly elected premier who got a mandate from all units of the country) must do something about it. I’m with you.

Here are your demands in the second paragraph:
1- Why where the recommendations of the parliamentary committee on Balochistan not followed?
2- Why is the NFC award not based on population and revenue? :confused:
3- Why is the water sharing agreement between Sindh and Punjab not followed with it suits Punjab?

Care to elaborate on these points? What were the recommendations that are not being met? And what are your recommendations for tribal culture led by warlords? Your second point utterly confuses me. If you know what you’re talking about, please explain that for people like me. And which water sharing agreement is not followed, and how it suits Punjab? Also let us know about the agreements concluded by the popularly elected administrations led by Benazir (who happened to be from the city you’ve just visited). What were her water policies? Do tell us.

I don’t see myself as an ethnic entity. I’m a Pakistani. We’re both conversing in English. In your words is an implicit call for violence against the state of Pakistan. The issues have to be very serious and extrodinary in Pakistan’s case? So please explain them further for ordinary people like me before you follow in the foot steps of millitant religious extremists or the tribal war-lords. When it comes to relationship with Bharat, people teach us democratic theories, and in their own conutry, they support violence. Bravo!

Re: Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

Dear Amorphous,

Let me address your points one by one.

  1. I have no personal feelings of animosity towards Pakistan and its ideology. I do have a disdain for out undemocratic rulers, whether from the army or the political parties. You can not even begin to understand how much my family or I have given for Pakistan.
  2. This Urdu speaking general is part of the same autocracy as most of our other rulers and it would not matter if he was Kashmiri speaking or Balochi speaking to me.
  3. The parliamentary committee on Balochistan, I was told, was set to look at provincial autonomy and other ways of solving grievances, but that process has yet to result in any real change. Others can fill you in with more detail I’m sure.
  4. Karachi and as a result Sindh is highest revenue producing area in Pakistan, yet the center spends most of that revenue in northern Punjab and parts of NWFP, the traditional army belt. As a result poverty levels in Sindh are much higher than Punjab. The same can be said for Balochistan. For a short history lesson on the injustice to Sindh through forced imposition of the NFC award, read this article. http://www.dawn.com/2006/01/20/top4.htm
  5. For the water agreement that has constantly been disregarded by Punjab, you should look at some news reports from Dawn on IRSA and reasons as to why the 1991 water accord is not followed. Not as expert in this field, but relying on what I’ve heard from others. http://www.dawn.com/2004/09/18/top9.htm http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/15/top2.htm
  6. Sindhis are as much disappointed by their own leaders, like the Bhuttos who go back on their promises when in power, than with the non Sindhi leaders. Trust me I am no fan of the Bhtuto clan.
  7. I am against all violence. However, in case you have not noticed there is a full fledged insurgency in progress in Balochistan. Musharraf, who tells the West that terrorism cannot be defeated through force, is trying to do the same in Balochistan. It will not work, unless his goal is to kill all Balochis. The government by not listening is forcing people with no other option to pick up the gun.

The bottom line is that during the past 58 years, the center has almsot always sided with Punjab on important issues, and people outside of Punjab are not stupid. The can see a scam and that is exactly what the governance of Pakistan has become.

Today’s news on NFC

http://www.dawn.com/2006/01/30/top7.htm

Sindh to lose Rs51bn in 5 years under new NFC

By Our Staff Reporter

ISLAMABAD, Jan 29: Sindh is estimated to lose Rs10 billion in its share from the federal divisible pool in the first year of the amended National Finance Commission Award and Rs41 billion on account of general sales tax over the next five years.

Re: Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

Karachi mouhajir?

How do you know? :rotfl:

There is no thing as non-punjab culture in Army!

Plus Musharraf is a liability since he has no clan based support in army and has to do more for Punjab or next time, the punjabi suicide dugga bombers “could be” SUCCESSFUL! :wink:

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^The idea that Musharaf is a puppet to the so called Punjabi establishment is just another example of the many emotion driven conspiracy theories that run through the minds of those who have some kind of beef towards Punjab... Its just over simplfing a complicated situation... Ruling a country like Pakistan is far more complex then you make it out to be.

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Anger and resentment against Punjab is hardly based on a dislike for Bhangra!

It is based on legitimate grievances driven by Punjab's hegemonistic attitude
towards the rest of the country

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It’s not an easy thing to be a Punjabi my freind. Damned if you, damned if you don’t. :slight_smile: He’s from Delhi. He was born there. He’s said a hundred times in his interviews that he’s in command. He recently said there are ten percent officers of Sindhi origin. The number of people from Pakhtonnkha is definitely higher.

Suicide bombers: Well, a couple of Punjabis, after visiting South Waziristan, might have learnt the art. But most of them are still duggas trying to determine their response to Mullah Inavasion from North. These political mullahs come from outside and like to pelt marathon runners with stones in Punjab. Punjabis need to hire some followers of Iltaf Bhai. :slight_smile:

On a different not, Ayyub Khan was not a Punjabi. Yahya Khan was not a Punjabi. Martial law admin. Z.A. Buttho was not a Punjabi. Zia-ul-Haq was Mohajir but ethnic Punjabi. Musharraf is not Punjabi. Everytime, when people talk about East Pakistan, they talk about the intransigence of Punjab. How many Punjabi leaders showed intransigence at that time? Were they as powerful as the general or Butho or Mujib? But you know what, Punjabis are blamed for everything.

After General Musharraf ‘sacked’ a Punjabi prime minister (who had already sacked a Punjabi COAS without any consequences), I read an article in the Newsweek in which the author told his readers about his conversations with an Urdu speaking journo who was angry because he said Nawaz had sacked a non-Punjabi general. (It was before Musharraf sacked Mr. premier). At that time Punjabis were bad because they sacked an Urdu speaking. Now Punjabis are bad because millitary favors them. My conclusion is that Punjabis are always bad.

I read a few suggestions about dividing the provinces. I say, go ahead, do it. Get it over with once for all. I’m sure we can get support from other provinces. If they don’t want to divide their provinces, divide Punjab only. Happy?

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Amorphous, it is like saying that when Colin Powell became the JCOS in US during the Gulf War era that equality was achieved in American and that “america had black influence on its armed forces culture”!

You know how TRUE is that so why argue about something as stupid here? :rotfl:

FOr all I care, you can punjabi and whatnot but don’t try to force your views and attitudes over others which is all what dugga’ism is all about!

These same duggas are the same ones harping the “son of the soil” theories and hating mouhajirs (calling them hindus, ma*($&*$ etc) to get quota system in place yet there is no quota system in the army?

Now why is that? :smiley:

Tell me why did Gunja sharfu picked Musharraf in the 1st place to lead the army? hint hint :smiley:

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Thank you very much K. I appreciate that. Here's my 'passionate defence' (of some issues only). I think, on most issues I agree with you. But I do want to counter some perceptions.

I have no personl feelings agianst any nationality let alone ethnicity. But I feel like a helpless person surrounded by many acrimonious people, who believe that I've usurped their rights only because my ancestors were from Punjab area. If I have faced any injustice in Pakistan, I can't blame anyone because I'm the 'culprit'. How can the accused resort to accusing? I wonder when the gov't of Pakistan sided with me or my family in our struggle of daily life.

About violence in Balochistan and NWFP: If you're a student of history, you'd know about the demands by MA Jinnah to introduce constitution in the areas of Balochistan and NWFP (Pakhtoonkha). Our British masters thought they were uncivilized. I'm bringing this up because we need to know about the level of 'justice' beyond these 58 years. Socio-economic change doesn't happen overnight. In many areas of NWFP and Balochistan, there's practically no gov't writ. In the tribal areas, they used to get free electricity; have no revenue collection system. Still the gov't is spending billions of rupees for the development of infrastructure in the areas where army men are shot at... the places where they don't even accept constitution. You might have also noticed the gush of positive feelings from every quarter at the demise of Wali Khan. Yes I morurn his demise. But I don't call him a great leader. He played ethnicity even on occasions when ethnicity had no role. Wasn't he the person who travelled to Karachi to lead demonstrations when an Urdu-speaking person married a Pashtoon girl against the will of her parents? (Correct me if I'm wrong). A person who showed such narrow-mindedness can't be a leader of national stature. I would say that about any Punjabi who shows similar narrow-mindedness.

The Balochistan problem has to be solved not because war-lords have amassed a huge cache of weapons, but because it's the right of every Pakistani to enjoy a good standard of life. I believe that injustices have been done to the area. But the 'struggle' you see is not a struggle for justice but a struggle perpetrated by warlords who fear the loss of their authority once economic progress comes to the area. Never before have such development plans been introduced for the area. The question is why this violence now? Do you honestly believe those tribal warlords? Little doubt, they're getting all the support from our enemies. I repeat, injustice has been done. But to root out injustice, we must root out tribal culture as well. They should be given control over their natural resources. Not some tribal clans, but the ordinary people of Balochistan.

Karachi and interior Sindh: Yes Karachi is the highest earning city of Pkaistan. Until a few years ago, California was the sixth largest economy of the world. Doesn't the federal gov't in Washington DC tax them? Don't they use the money for the development of areas that are laging behind other areas in progress? (That definitely includes areas like interior Sindh and Balochistan). The defence consumes most amout of money in almost every country of the world. That, unfortunately, is the price an independent state has to pay. A few years back, I read an article in the newspaper that called the 'fountains in Lahore' an insult to the people of lower Pakistan because they were suffering from a drought there. I wonder if anyone has called the second largest jet fountain in Karachi an insult to the people in Balochistan? I felt good about it.

I would be lying if I tell you that I have first-hand knowledge of interior Sindh. But I promise that I'll try to find as much as I could. And I also promise you that I'll talk to ordinary people about it. The money has to spent there to eradicate poverty. In a capitalistic system, gov't must ensure the development of infrastructure, educational institutions, clean water supply etc. etc. But private investors have to be there to make an investment. You can read about any successful capitalistic society.

Economically, I'm neither a conservative nor a socialist. Gov't has to provide the structure, but it's the people who have to build upon that structure. I think provinces should tax their subject themselves. The gov't can take away money that would be spent only on defence or federal admin. The rest should be dealt with within provinces. I don't want everyone to accuse me of usurpig their rights especially when I don't have my own rights granted to me. We need steel mills in Balochistan, NWFP and Punjab as well.

Media: The media in Pakistan is a 'complex enterprise'. There're a couple of media empires in the country. One led by jang group. (Their bosses are Urdu speaking to the best my knowledge); and the other led by Dawn. (The boss here is Sindhi, to the best of my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong). Nobody cares about The Nation or pro-Punjab newspapers. And the journos do twist their stories all the time for a variety of reasons.

Water issues: The river Ravi along Lahore is nothing but a riverbed now. There's no water. You don't want KBD, I'm with you. But I don't understand why people accuse Punjab of 'stealing' water. The Sindh minister of agriculture used to undertake sorties into the areas of Punjab to check telemetric system in order to insure there was no water theft. He couldn't find anything. Isra has memebers from all units. The federal member is non-Punjabi now. That's what has been ordained by the current president. They're always unanimously against Punjab. Why Punjab has bumber crops? Why Punjab has underground water? Come on! I heard the Urdu speaking general that Sindh gets more water per unit area than Punjab. Now how is Punjab to be blamed? Don't read only what journos in these newspapers say. Don't read the papers that boycott the other side of the story to mislead their readers. Listen to all sides and then make up your opinion. The educated Punjabi doesn't speak Punjabi now. Then people talk about his association with Ranjeet Singh! We're conversing here in English, but fight over ethnic differences that are being exploited for political interests.

I promise you, I'll try to get more knowledge about the problems (and their solution) of interior Sindh.

I'm ready to talk to anyone who beleives in Pakistan. But arguing with those who don't even believe in Pakistan is not productive activity. (It's not for you khehkeshan). Pakistan is not the only country that has problems. We can talk about northern Ireland, basque separatists, the insurgencies in so many other countries in Asia (like India). But why all doomsayers converge on Pakistan?

Re: Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

And before someone comes and says that bengalis were PMs too, let me ask that why didn’t the punjab-pathan axis in the army never allowed elected governments in Bengal or in W. Pakistan for that matter to ever continue?

It is like saying that US occupation of Iraq never happened since Iyad Allawi and chalabi are iraqis!

But I am sure the mullah dugga brigades will come with death sentences for me in that case! :rotfl: :rotfl:

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OK. I know about all these theories. If you want to get rid of the quota system, you’ll find your best supporter in me. All my life I’ve spoken against this quota system. It doesn’t serve me. It serves people who are impoverished (or want us to believe that they’re impoverished). So no quota system for me. .

Powell may not have changed much. But he introduced a change. We may soon be watching ‘Condi vs Blondie’. :smiley:

I’m not forcing my opinions on anyone. :slight_smile:

Edit: I have yet to meet a Punjabi who called Mohajir Hindu (or anything like that). I’ll ask my Mohajir friends --there are many-- and let you know if anyone called them such names.

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I said it’s not an easy thing to be a Punjabi.

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We don't even know if condi will run?
and that a black AND a woman will become a president! :D

The "ruling class" hasn't change with powell's incoming / outcoming has it?

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Maybe I should open a thread in world section about the myth of the US’s iraqi occupation and watch ak47 aunty and her uncle supporters :kaboom: :rocket: :rocketup: :2guns: :2guns:

:smiley:

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Provincial autonomy: Jinnah saheb was asked for this in his 14 point agenda of Muslim league , as er that each and every state should have been granted autonomy except for defence and foreign affairs not only that he wanted freedom for each state to opt out of federation if they wanted and congress refused which can be understandable…

But the question again arises how come Pakistan found it hard to give even token autonomy to the constituent states of pakistan.. We all know why bangaldesh erupted because forget autonomy they could nto even tolerate a bengali becoming the PM..

In fact baluchistan problem again is nothign but the prolem of autonomy all baluchi want is the rights over minerals in their state but once again Jinnah saheb’s principle of autonomy goes into dumps..

read this gentleman from baluchistan what he thinks about the problem..
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C01%5C11%5Cstory_11-1-2006_pg3_5
HARDtalk: “The Balochistan situation has some similarity to 1971”*** —Sardar Sherbaz Khan Mazari, Baloch leader ***

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/images/2006/01/11/20060111_adil-9.jpg

*** The situation in Balochistan has been further aggravated by the government

  • Pervez Musharraf has caused the sardars to flare up… he’s so arrogant
  • He has not just antagonised the people but even the senior army hierarchy, the retired ones, who consider him an upstart
  • Why wasn’t army action initiated when General Musharraf was attacked in Rawalpindi
  • The army is involved in Balochistan
  • Even in those days we didn’t accept Bhutto’s constitution [1973 constitution]
  • The centre should retain defence, foreign affairs and currency, and to some extent, communications
  • There are no fanatical Muslims in Balochistan**

Re: Provincial autonomy and concurrent lists

The two main points that all the people I talked with keep coming back to are the issues of provincial autonomy and giving back ministries like health, education, and finance to the provinces and doing away with the wasteful dual handling of these ministries.


Man i thought that's what federalism means , that's how we have it India other than defence foreign affaris comunication centre doesn't control anything in state......... This kind of federal control in a country whose founder Jinnah was hell bent on demanding for total autonomy in every affairs for accepting to stay in indian federation sounds ludicrous..

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Look, ganguly is not happy. :(

Go home and talk about two dozen insugencies in your country.