Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning


agreed.

but it's interesting to observe how readily people ignore the enabling factor of this episode: americans give inmates korans to read. the haters also implicitly acknowledge that the US is to be held to account as a culturally sensitive, professional, first world military. i agree with that.

also peculiar that this episode is being referred to as the "burning of korans" which obviously carries a very different connotation than the more accurate description: "disposal of korans by the standard method of waste disposal at the airbase which happens to be incineration".

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

Please compare rights of afghan inmates with rights of american inmates in american prisons..................

and how they tried to dispose holy quran shows their ignorance of muslim sentiments....after ten years they can not understant and respect feelings of muslims.....

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning


in what way is the treatment materially different? please provide details.

the more relevant comparison is american treatment of afghan prisoners versus treatment of afghan prisoners in a typical afghan prison (forget about taliban captivity). i would much rather be an inmate in an american-run prison.

[quote]
and how they tried to dispose holy quran shows their ignorance of muslim sentiments....after ten years they can not understant and respect feelings of muslims.....
[/QUOTE]
fair point.

i agree that a culturally sensitive, professional, first world military should be exercising better judgment, however minor this incident may seem to a rational person.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

i was talking about american treatment towards american prisoner....i dont know they want to compete with afghans in human rights....

Hope you get some time in prisons like Abu gharib or bagram then let me know about their fair treatment.................

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

Since when have even the most well informed religous zealots ever stopped and considered the logic of their actions?

Now consider how well informed the average Afghan is... Now take an ill informed, exceedingly passionate, frustrated and disenchanted populous, and you have the makings of a powder keg.

As for the members of the forum, many have an inherent hatred for the Americans and NATO, so such nuances are irrelevant to them.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning


you ignored the first sentence. keep in mind you are trying to compare treatment of domestic criminals with treatment of enemy combatants...but i will still entertain your comparison.

and obviously there is no comparison between the US and afghan approach to human rights...that was the point of my comment. it's helpful to keep things in perspective given how often anti-US forumers try to draw a ridiculous false equivalence between the US and taliban.

[quote]
Hope you end up in some prisons like Abu gharib or bagram then let me know about their fair treatment.................
[/QUOTE]
that's not very nice.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

have you ever heard about geneva conventions?

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

Well, I dont think you have been keeping up with the news. If I were you, I would pray to stay out of all prisons, under any circumstance.

Take the case of two known prisoners who died in American run prisons in Afghanistan. One named Dilawar, and another named Habibullah, who was apparently kicked to death.
Afghan Prisoners Were ‘Tortured to Death’ by American Guards
Abu Gharaib and Bagram are infamous.

Also, an advantage to being an American in prison is not being deprived of sleep, water boarded, hounded by dogs and refused a trial. You would also get a slightly larger cell with some degree of privacy, while in prisons like guamtanmo, you would be put in a cage.
You would also be allowed visitations, recreational activity, and a lawyer with an option to appeal american prisons for americans. Many people (accused of terrorism) were held under US custody without trial. Most were foreign nationals, but with the passage of the new law, signed by our very own Obama, even Americans can now be held indefinitely without trial.

And while American personnel accused of torture can be held to account, unlike those being held by Afghans, its little comfort to those who have already died, been tortured, and spent years without trial in American run prisons.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

i don’t dispute this at all but the critical distinction is that you are referring to treatment used towards the extraction of information from enemy combatants. it’s easy to confuse the two when the prison is both an interrogation facility and a prison - a function of the war context. it is misleading to portray this as “prison conditions”.

this is not comparable to a domestic US prison. the only thing comparable is the prison conditions themselves, which is what i was referring to.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

What is the procedure employed in the extraction of information from criminals in the US? You certainly cannot torture them. Why should there be a double standard?

Also, torture for the purpose of extracting information, implies the prisoner has already been found guilty. However, many of these individuals were not given trials. Indeed, it was assumed that putting them on trial would lead to their release for lack of evidence. Hence the legal/diplomatic/philosophical gymnastics that the Bush administration had to do in order to get around irritants like due process, the Geneva convention etc etc.

Regardless of what you call it, the US has to abide by certain established codes of conduct. They use terms like "enemy combatant" (how do they determine who is an enemy combatant without a trial?) because this implies, however subtly, that Geneva codes dont apply since they are not member of a regular army. Its dispicable how people like Chenney used such distortions, including terms like "enhanced" interrogations to justify grave human rights abuses.

It really is all word play. At the end of the day, these people were held prisoner, never given a trial, and tortured and an unknown number died. Its as simple as that.

By the way, in a US prison, you run the risk of being raped or stabbed with a toothbrush, your toilet is a foot away from the bed, and you better hope there is a race you can fit in with so as to avoid the above. Not much of a step up...

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning


the wartime code of conduct used by the US in handling enemy combatants and the legal nuances of interrogation is a very different discussion. in that discussion, i would probably agree with you more than disagree.

but i would also be speaking as a liberal/progressive US citizen that views the US as a morally superior actor and holds it to extremely high standards on issues like human rights and civil liberties. this is a very different basis for criticism than what underpins the outrage from this forum's apologists and sympathizers of the taliban, ISI or any other brutal third world barbarians.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

Perhaps. But in so far as there criticism of US policy on detainees is concerned, they are right, and that should be acknowledged. Whatever views they hold otherwise, and whatever their motivation, it is irrelevant in light of factual evidence.

And regardless of what standards we hold, at the end of the day, we are all human. There is a fine line here, but if the US can fall to the level of the most barbaric of regimes, then the line becomes more and more irrelevant. So while dictatorial regimes commit crimes with impunity, the US cloaks similar crimes in veil of democracy.

We should be careful who we label a Barbarian. Your black and white portrayal of the "other" is more reminiscent of conservative ideology then liberal/progressive. While I am loathe to say anything good of the Taliban, many innocents who have been kidnapped by them have returned unharmed. Many innocents (due to lack of any evidence) detained by the US were tortured and or killed.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

 I dont think that Islam is such a meek religion to be insulted by this event.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning


again, i agree. it's just amusing to see muslims who otherwise support murdering cartoonists and apostates suddenly become more liberal than dennis kucinich when it comes to civil liberties in the US. conservative muslims and the ACLU make bizarre bedfellows - but at least the ACLU is consistent and principled.

[quote]
And regardless of what standards we hold, at the end of the day, we are all human. There is a fine line here, but if the US can fall to the level of the most barbaric of regimes, then the line becomes more and more irrelevant. So while dictatorial regimes commit crimes with impunity, the US cloaks similar crimes in veil of democracy.
[/quote]
as US citizens we should oppose any deviation from ultra high standards of conduct but assigning false equivalence erodes credibility. even a grave deviation from those standards is rarely anything close to the level of "the most barbaric of regimes". if you take the most high profile US wartime transgressions (guantanamo, abu ghraib, the mahmudiya killings, burnt korans, peeing on taliban soldiers, etc.) and try to assign a counterpart transgression by even normal armies in that part of the world (forget about "the most barbaric of regimes")...the counterpart to each of these would be orders of magnitude worse and more heinous.

i certainly didn't say we should ignore or accept american transgressions or crimes. my limited point was that we should keep things in perspective and not draw false equivalence between entities at opposite ends of the human rights spectrum. as bad as guantanamo might be, i would rather spend a year as an enemy combatant at guantanamo than a single day as an enemy combatant in ISI custody or at the Papa II interrogation facility in kashmir in the 1990s.

[quote]
We should be careful who we label a Barbarian. Your black and white portrayal of the "other" is more reminiscent of conservative ideology then liberal/progressive. While I am loathe to say anything good of the Taliban, many innocents who have been kidnapped by them have returned unharmed. Many innocents (due to lack of any evidence) detained by the US were tortured and or killed.
[/QUOTE]
in this context, "barbarian" refers to a point on the human rights spectrum. again you are wading into false equivalance. this is not a point of debate. if one party's torture is sleep deprivation and waterboarding...and the other party's torture is drilling kneecaps and cutting off fingers, they are not equally barbaric. if one party's detention yields a few accidental deaths...and the other party's detention yields large scale extrajudicial execution, they are not equally barbaric. you get the point.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

A half-hearted Muslim and Hindu debating Islam in the geo-political context of Afghanistan. This has to be the start of a joke or something :hehe:

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

debating islam? don't flatter yourself, bro.

a discussion about US conduct and its human rights standards vis-à-vis the enemy's is "debating islam" to you. lol

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

And now, into the dead end in Afghanistan | Pakistan: Now or Never?

And now, into the dead end in Afghanistan

**
When the history of the Afghan war is written, the protests over the burning of copies of the Koran will certainly be defined as a watershed. What remains to be seen is whether they become the moment the United States lost the war, or rather, when America lost patience.

**The anger of Afghans is evident, whether it beover the sense of religious insult or the sheer frustration with a war that has gone on too long and yielded too little.

Less evident, but perceptible and equally important, however, is the American response. “2014 cannot come fast enough,” was one comment on Twitter about the date when the United States and its allies are meant to hand over control of security to Afghan forces.

“It’s reasonable to wonder what we have gotten out of more than a decade of investment-including 1901 US and 2901 total NATO Coalition deaths-in an effort to forge, as President Obama put it in his speech at West Point, a “partnership with Afghanistan grounded in mutual respect – to isolate those who destroy; to strengthen those who build; to hasten the day when our troops will leave; and to forge a lasting friendship in which America is your partner, and never your patron,”wrote James Joyner at the Atlantic Council. “Aside from hastening the day when our troops leave, none of those goals seem any closer than they were in 2001.”

Contrast that with the reaction to last September’s assault on the U.S. embassy on Kabul, which was erroneously compared to the Tet offensive, when Vietnamese insurgents attacked the U.S. embassy in Saigon 1968 and convinced the American public that – although the attack was defeated - the war was lost. Last year, the attack on the embassy in Kabul was blamed on Pakistan. This year, while that accusation stands, the protests over the burning of the Koran are delivering the more authentic message of the Tet offensive – that wars are lost on the home front of public opinion more often than they are on the battlefield.

Andrew Exum from the Center for a New American Security (CNAS) summed it up best in his complaint on Twitter that Afghan President Hamid Karzai had appeared to take sides with the protesters against the Americans. “In a reversal, with each passing day, Karzai needs U.S. troops in Afghanistan beyond 2014 more than the U.S. does. Does he realize that?” he wrote. “The U.S. has interests in Afghanistan, but surely Karzai sees how they have become less and less important for the U.S. government & public.”

Yet stop for a moment and consider how this jars with U.S. strategy in Afghanistan. Along with its allies, the U.S. aim is to build up Afghan security forces to the point where they can hold their ownagainst an insurgency after 2014, with or without a peace deal with the Taliban. The sequencing in the rather confusing U.S. mantra of “fight, talk and build” requires an ability to project enough power - or at least pretend to do so - that the Taliban might find they have more to gain from negotiating a settlement while U.S. troops are still in Afghanistan than by fighting their way to Kabul in a civil war.

Do also remember that the U.S. strategy, not too long ago described in the “AfPak” five-letter word, was clear that American success in Afghanistan was meant to encourage Pakistan to challenge its own Islamist militants. Yet Pakistan is more fragile than ever. Aside from its many economic and security problems, it is fighting a separatist revolt in Balochistan; its army is driven by a perceived threat from both Afghanistan and India - neither of whom have recognised its borders; and its heartland Punjab province is playing host to a new and powerful Islamist/jihadi alliance whose primary slogan is “Go America Go.”
**
Meanwhile, the U.S. strategy is, and has always been, internally inconsistent. At one level it wants to retain military bases in Afghanistan after 2014, which could be used for drone strikes and other military operations against Pakistan where many of the Islamist militants are based. Yet it needs Pakistani endorsement for a deal with Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, whose support is required to bring the rest of the movement on board and who is, despite Pakistani official denials, believed to be living in an Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) safe house, most likely in Karachi.
**
**In short, however inconsistent the strategy, it has depended on bluff. And that bluff is weakening.
**
I am increasingly reminded of the words of one western official speaking last year on Afghanistan: ”We stay we lose, we leave we lose.” But I am also, troublingly, reminded of something else – the projection of power that the British used in India for 200 years to maintain the rule of the very small minority over the majority. That legacy left deep scars in South Asia and, with the hurried British departure in 1947, created all the worse pain for its sudden withdrawal.

But if we were to define the U.S. presence in Afghanistan, it has depended – rightly or wrongly – on a projection of power. In its response to the Koran-burning protests, the United States just turned its two of clubs face upwards on the table. That demands attention.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

calling the muslims the enemy at least you revealed your mindset regardless if it was intentional or not.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning


in this context the enemy happens to be muslim. i drew comparisons not only to the enemy but also more generally to armies in that part of the world, including india.

learn how to read.

Re: Protest in Afghanistan after Quran burning

And even after 7 days the situation has not calmed down. Well done NATO.