Prostitution in Pakistan....

Lifestyle Relationships
21

Just for the sake of knowledge JUMURA, the red light areas in big cities, specially Lahore were restricted by Ayub Khan and not Zia, and that is when they dispersed all around the city.
Prostitution is everywhere in the world, and there is no way to eradicate it altogether, due to economical reasons as well as the human nature.
We like to idealize in terms of religion and culture while growing up and due to the lack of our knowledge and experience we do not realize this social problem all around us. As we grow up, this ideal world falls apart, and it hurts, we see all these problems all around us, and all of a sudden our environment doesnt stay sacred to us anymore. After just suffering for a while, we start becoming indifferent to such an issue. I don't know why I am just rambling on, I really do not have anything to say....

Wise to resolve, and patient to perform. --Homer

22

The whole debate on how to eradicate prostitution is quite amusing. I'll say again what I said before. As long as their is demand, there will be supply. Simple. You remove the sexual urges of men, and prostitution will finish. You can enact severest punishment for the act and its perpetrators; but this won't die. Do you think that prostitution does not take place in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia? What a joke! The only difference is that you don't hear about it. But ask a native and they will tell you that it is every where.

A defined red light area (for prostitution) certainly makes it stand out and the clergy and the mullah does not like it. But they, like others, realize the stark reality. They work around it, by marking the areas hoping the negative influence won't spread and to control the damage. Guess what! If you change the equilibrium they spread every where. Read above and you will know that previously it was only Shahi Mohallah, now its Gulberg, Iqbal Town, Defence, Muslim Town... u name it. What did we achieve? A girl who lives two streets from our house in Lahore Defence is a prostitute. Sells her body for sex. So? There is no criminal evidence against her, so you might as well mind your own business.

Heera Mundi or Shahi Mohalla might carry the dirtiest brothels in town but they are primarily a centre for music and dance. Now you may argue against music and dance as well, since we have been told time and again in our Religion Forum that these are against Islam, but ... thats a separate discussion. Lets not mix apples with oranges.

23

[quote]
Originally posted by Peacemaker:
*Heera Mundi or Shahi Mohalla might carry the dirtiest brothels in town but they are primarily a centre for music and dance. Now you may argue against music and dance as well, since we have been told time and again in our Religion Forum that these are against Islam, but ... thats a separate discussion. Lets not mix apples with oranges. *
[/quote]

The activity of song and dance, as practiced in the shahi muhallah, facilitates the act of prostitution. Regardless of what the basic motive behind this song & dance activity was in the olden days, there is no denying the fact that it contributes to male libido. And well, the percentage of folks going to shahi muhalla for sexual purposes is right there alongside the percentage of people going there for 'entertainment'. And then from amongst the people going there for entertainment, you have another 50% or so who will add sexual activities to their itinerary as well.

We cannot discount shahi muhalla's role in the propagation of this profession just because it has spread out in other areas as well. True, prostitutes can be found just about anywhere. Heck, if they can be found right behind the Baadshahi masjid, they can indeed be found anywhere, be it Defence, Johar Town, or elsewhere. But the main idea is to control the facilitation of such acts. Defence or Model Town areas dont facilitate prostitution. If a person has the urge to go to a prostitute, the first place on his mind would be heera mandi, not defence.

Granted that its hard to eradicate this behavior from society as long as their is demand for it, but then again, eradication of any evil for that matter is virtually impossible, anywhere and everywhere. Total eradication of all evil from this world would result in a perfect world, which is out of the question. Its all about control. If a certain act is prohibited by law, and is abhored by the majority, what steps can we take to control it? If not control it, then the least the authorities can do is stop facilitating it. Right now, as we have it, shahi mohalla is a heaven for pimps and customers. Easy to get clients, easier to get pros. If the authorities step in and eradicate these components, they wont eradicate prostitution, but they will at least limit its growth. More importantly, it will give the women involved a chance to get their lives in control. Right now, its the pimps who dictate the lives of these 14, 15, 16 year old girls.

24

I cannot understand why you ppl are defending the place. Yes burn it down or if you want to do it in an Islamic way then stone all of them to death. Do you think the Islamic courts will decide any other punishment for these prostitutes or call girls? Some one made a connection with taliban and the statue of budha, let me tell you Herra Mandi is not a religious place or symbol. So what is there to compare. And please who was that idiot that even used the name KABA in defending Heera Mandi. I think people like you who defend that place help run it keep it alive. Take it with a grain of salt if you like but Facts are facts and let me remind you Pakistan is a MUSLIM country (ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKSTAN if you guys forgot)

25

As someone noted above, prostitution is said to be the oldest profession in the world (although the Economists come close to it followed by Software Engineers). We are all hookers whether or not we admit it. Selling one’s body as a sexual object for making money is not such a huge deal. (Can anyone in all honesty tell us that what is such a big deal about that?). It is like any other trade and it should be regulated and legalized to take the corruption and violence associated with this trade. Instead of Pimps controlling the prostitutes, let some bureaucrats do the job (much like getting a phone line).

Ideally, one should be able to go to a Government Office (Bureau of Sexual Satisfaction – sorry BoSS), check out the ladies, select one, decide on the amount, do the stuff, and get back to work. Big deal.

What annoys the hell out of me is that a sexually frustrated Man can go and satisfy himself a lot easier than a sexually frustrated Woman. This should be an equal opportunity environment. Any Woman who feels like it should be able to go and Pick a Man of her desire.

26

>>The activity of song and dance, as practiced in the shahi muhallah, facilitates the act of prostitution

Not just shahi mohalla. May be the very acts of women singing and dancing will entice men (those who are so inclined) towards sex. Thats why many muslim scholars consider music and dance haram ab inititio. Attack at the source. A liberal will argue that dance is poetry of body and it will be a dirty-minded person who think of it as erotic, but practically we see examples which suggest otherwise. So, singing and dancing are bad. Fine! As I said, thats a separate discussion. :)

>>But the main idea is to control the facilitation of such acts

How about trying to reduce the customers as well? Beating the same horse again and again may score a few political points but these same 'prostitutes' are released the next day because all the key politicians and bureaucrats are their customers. What a shame, right? :)

>>If a person has the urge to go to a prostitute, the first place on his mind would be heera mandi, not defence

Wrong. If a person is totally new to Lahore or is poor or doesn't know anyone in Lahore, he may consider Shahi Mohalla to be a safe bet for illicit sex. But ask a Lahori, who knows, and shahi mohalla is the last place he will take you. Its so dirty and so risky (police as well as AIDS). They will give u several mobile phone numbers for women close to your home. Or you can just drive around in Gulberg or Defence and you will find a woman standing alone in many of the shadowy streets. Why bother about Shahi Mohalla when you can get a better service two streets down from your home or hotel. Ofcourse, Shahi Mohalla will probably beat you for the price any day of the year. :)

>>More importantly, it will give the women involved a chance to get their lives in control. Right now, its the pimps who dictate the lives of these 14, 15, 16 year old girls.

Looking at TAZZ's comments, he will just burn these women down or stone them to death, so their welfare is probably not on top of the list by some. The abuse of these women is shameful and in some cases these women might be doing it unwillingly. But, without doubt, a lot of women, especially in shahi mohalla, do it for the most obvious reason, money. They live with their families and offer their bodies for money.

*>>I cannot understand why you ppl are defending the place. *

You just don't get it. We are just explaning the facts, not defending it. You live in an ideal (and probably a very brutal) world.

>>then stone all of them to death

I presume you will be the one to throw the first stone, right?

Do you think the Islamic courts will decide any other punishment

There are islamic courts in Pakistan for the last 20 years. Why don't they decide? Why leave it for you? :)

*>>let me remind you Pakistan is a MUSLIM country *

Thanks for reminding us. Looking at this thread, we sometimes tend to forget it. God knows what will happen if few of us actually went to that place.

[This message has been edited by Peacemaker (edited June 27, 2001).]

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Any Woman who feels like it should be able to go and Pick a Man of her desire.

Or even better, another Woman.

28

How about trying to reduce the customers as well? Beating the same horse again and again may score a few political points but these same 'prostitutes' are released the next day because all the key politicians and bureaucrats are their customers. What a shame, right? :)

Are we discussing our politicians here, or the ethical/moral nature of the existence of a red light district? who cares if its our very own ministers who frequent these places? A minister soliciting a prostitute is in the same category as is a random customer. And if the law were to be applied honestly and fairly, it would hold both these men equally accountable. But its not the imposition of the law or the honesty of our authorities thats in question here. Thats a question suited for the politics forums.

But ask a Lahori, who knows, and shahi mohalla is the last place he will take you.

Where are you more likely to find loiterers at odd hours of the night? heera mandi or a shady area of defence? Regardless of what happens in the inner circles of Lahore, proportionally, you cant possibly compare the illicit (and relatively open) sexual activity of heera mandi to that of the the underground scene of outer lahore.

Its so dirty and so risky (police as well as AIDS).

Im sure defence pros arent immune to AIDS. Regardless of whether they use lifebouy or Rexona for a shower, they are still as prone to getting AIDS or any other STD as the pros in heera mandi...and consequently, they are just as likely to transfer it to a customer as are the pros in heera mandi.

a lot of women, especially in shahi mohalla, do it for the most obvious reason, money.

Thats more so because they havent been given the opportunity to explore any other choices in life, and because their spouses(if any), are from the pimp category, who are content in living off the fat money that their wives make.
If given the chance, how many women would you say will retain prostitution as their profession?

The issue about picking up these people and stoning them or burning their places down is something that should be discussed in the review folder.
Without providing proper opportunities to these folks, one cannot expect them to be straight as an arrow all their lives. As NYA said, we all are prostitutes, in one way or another. Just because one group of people chooses to prostitute themselves in a sexual way doesnt automatically make them worse than us. Religiously speaking, in God's eyes, who knows, some particular act of a mufti maulana might be far worse compared to a prostitute's act of selling her body. So in my mind, we do not have the authority to judge as to what to do, and to whom we should do it.

Theres no doubting that prostitution leads to a number of evils that we can definitely do without. Suppression of women is on the top of the list, followed by spread of diseases, vagabond children, uncertain future, and in general, a pitiful life.
I feel it should be controlled more so in order to establish a certain of quality of life rather than anything else.

29

>>Im sure defence pros arent immune to AIDS. Regardless of whether they use lifebouy or Rexona for a shower, they are still as prone to getting AIDS or any other STD as the pros in heera mandi...and consequently, they are just as likely to transfer it to a customer as are the pros in heera mandi.

I don't know. I really don't know, Akif. I have heard that prostitutes in outer Lahore (as you put it) areas like Defence, will insist that all their customers use condoms etc. Prostitutes in shahi mohalla are probably not that picky or suave and basically anything goes. Guess, here lies your answer. :)

*>>If given the chance, how many women would you say will retain prostitution as their profession? *

I don't know for sure. What do you think? I know college girls in Lahore, from decent middle class families, who do prostitution on the side to get extra money for clothes and make up. Infact hostels of some women colleges have a unique reputation in these matters. Now, why would they do that? No one is bending their arms. Will they opt to do it again if we turn back the clock? I think so. What do you say?

But thats not the point. There will definitely be a number of women who are forced into it, by their benefactors or by their situation. Many of them will gladly accept any help to get out of this vicious cycle. There should be more understanding to their plight and to rescue them. So we might need to postpone that throwing of stones ceremony which TAZZ will initiate. Right?

[This message has been edited by Peacemaker (edited June 27, 2001).]

30

Your points are well taken PM, but all this cannot have us say that since there are women who are in it willfully, we might as well leave it alone.

The thing is, human beings are borderline characters. They are bendable either way, if tempted well enough. Our movie culture instills these ideas into the minds of our youth, and even adults. And the presence of these red light areas assists them in giving their fantasies a practical shape. In my mind, the presence of such areas only makes it easy for borderline characters to fall through. And I also believe that on the flipside, the absence of such places will keep many border characters from falling into this mess. Not everyone will bend over backwards in order to satisfy their lust. But when the satisfaction is made so easily accessible, more than a few will go ahead. Thats why I guess they should impose some sort of sanctions on shahi muhalla. Perhaps they can institute some kind of smart sanctions, where they can preserve the heritage part of the area, and eradicate prostitution only....but some steps definitely need to be taken.

31

Goverments and Mullahas had tried there best but instead of crushing it they had helped them spread all over the place.

People in past were more realistic they a known that thay can`t stop people from going red light areas so they have restricted it to certain place.

Only soloution for this is to restrict all these people related to this occupation

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

in one place like Hera mandi.

Burning there houses or stabbing them to death is not the soloution unless people stop going to them( Supply and demand ).They are proffesionals give them all,one place so they can practice peacefully instead of taking it to every part of city.

Mangelo i know about Zia acction because i was there and i had seen them running and spreading like bees and the consequences of that action.

32

Originally posted by TAZZ:
...And please who was that idiot that even used the name KABA in defending Heera Mandi.

If a Muslim kills another Muslim it is worse then destroying - - - as in reza-rez the Kaabah. In front of the live of a Muslim, the Kaabah is just a building of bricks, cement, and a roof of straws that has no value according to Allah (sbwt). The court decides the punishment for any crime people don't. I am not sure what is hard to understand in this simple fact and Islamic knowledge?

I think people like you who defend that place help run it keep it alive. Take it with a grain of salt if you like but Facts are facts and let me remind you Pakistan is a MUSLIM country (ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKSTAN if you guys forgot)

No we haven't forgotten. That's been the problem with Pakistan for the last 50 years. It can't decide which way to go. Please, don't tell us that Pakistan is a Muslim country....it is NOT. People are, the country is not.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

33

>>but all this cannot have us say that since there are women who are in it willfully, we might as well leave it alone.

Well, no. I did not raise this point in response to eradication of prostitution. I said it in response to your point that how many women will be willing to leave this profession, given a chance.

No one is defending prostitution per se. Some may defend (you included) shahi mohalla because of its cultural significance, but sans prostitution. That point is well taken.

There have been numerous attempts in Pakistan to curtail prostitution by trying to stop 'supply'. There have been crack downs on red light areas, ppl have been arrested, fined and imprisoned. But this things just refuses to shrink. It just continues to grow. My point was simple. We should also do something about the 'demand' side of the equation. Educate people. Bring them to their religion. Enforce discipline in the police force. Apply laws equally and effectively. Bring honesty to our judicial system. Most importantly, work for social and economic balance in the society. It is poverty which fuels such professions. That might help reduce the alarming increase in prostitution. It is the 'borderline' cases which will be converted first due to lack of supply.

Is any of that easy? No. Shall we give up? No.

To correct anything, we first need to identify the problem and work out a solution. Looking at only one side of the problem will produce ineffective results.

However, I am deeply convinced that there is no way prostitution will be completely eradicated. In fact, realistically, it will only grow in the years to come. We can sit here and spent hours debating a solution, but, fact of the matter is, no one at the helm is interested in its eradication nor feel it is a huge social problem. Some liberals actually think it is another sign of free society. We might as well see discreet male gigolo services being introduced in Pakistan soon, if they are not already. :)

34

Peacemaker..you are talking about Ideal society which we are not,we are male dominating society,and you can`t expect male dominators to withdraw from this ayashey!can you?

with my limited experience with few NgO`s..they are acctualy promoting it in different ways which you and i can only imagine.

and male gigolo`s are alreadt there

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35

PM, well said.

juMurA, I don't see how PM is talking about an ideal society. I see the steps that he is proposing as practical and needed in any society if an attempt were to be made to address this problem. His proposal is more inline for a Muslim society where he brings religion in.

There was not, is not, and will not be an ideal society. The very fact that we are on this earth is because of the fight between right and wrong and the challenge of the wrong to the right. Quran is a book of rules and regulations. It recognizes that people have shortcomings, will give in to temptation, etc and addresses those situations.

You might be correct...juMurA, I believe you are correct in saying that male gigolos being in Pakistan. Given the style of high society this wouldn't be too farfetched.

36

JANNU ,

What is that with you ,DO YOU EVER DIFFER FROM P.M.You either are identical twin,who think alike or you are the same person with two nick?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

Which is it.???

ou both seem to know about the subject much more than any one else ,might as well write every thing you know about prostitution in a post in one place for every ones information.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

Woh afsaana jise anjaam tak, laana na ho mumkin
Use ek KHoobsoorat moR dekar, chhoRna achha

37

Darn! We have another Sherlock Holmes wannabe here. jannu, run for cover! :)

FYI, I was hoping you will again entertain us with 2.4 Giga byte of cut-and-paste on prostitution from some unknown web source. Come on man, don't disappoint us.

38

Jannu, Pakistan was created because the MUslims of India could not live in a country that cannot respect there religion. So Pakistan was creatd as a Muslim Country. Let me Correct you PAkistan Is a Muslim country but all the people are not Muslims. And stop defending Prostitution and Heera Mandi until and unless you use it and see a need in the future.

39

My question is what stops you (those who want to take all the steps to abolish it, which will never happen in my opinion) from visiting a Brothel? Are you insinuating that others in Pakistan are not bright enough to make that decision for themselves? Or is that you feel a need to display your cucumber mentality for passing out propositions out of your humanity? And why aren’t any women participating in this discussion?

What stops devote Muslims living in the US to drink alcohol?

40

FYI; I have seen areas of differences with PM. She? (I remember reading that you were a sinf-e-nazuk

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

warna maafi chaheta hooN…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

) has said things that I agree with. I am PM. I am sure if I have differed from PM in the past somewhere, sometime, somehow…thinking, thinking. tic toc, tic toc…hmmm

No we do not know as much as you think we should. Just that we are only talking about the reasons for it and the ways to check it. It’s like how Islam says that if your neighbor has nothing to eat and you do, your food is haram on you. See there are implications of that eddict for the neighbor in desperation would be tempted to look for ways to get food… am I kind’a making some sense?

So, that’s the premis based on which we are talking and also what Islam says how the administration of punishement should be carried out and by whom. If a crime has not been committed against me, for as much as I understand, I do not have a right to seek revenge on that person for others. My understanding on the subject is such and, how PM is trying elaborate on it, I find myself gravitating to him/er.

And TAZZ bahi, no disrespect. I couldn’t be further from/on the knowledge on Paksitan. My understanding is that Pakistan was indeed made for Muslims where Muslims could live in peace but, again as I said before, the people there are Muslim but the country, regardless of the political designatin, is not. I am not against what you are saying. I am with you on this issue but only to the point of taking justice in your own hand. This is the only point on which I beg to differ from you.