Insaniyat, you argument is baseless. Hazrat Musa AH was also raised in house of a kafir, does that make Hazrat Musa AH less fortunate? his followers less blessed? No. Whoever recited kalima before death might be considered Muslim, but those unfortunate ones who were not able to see the light of Islam only Allah swt knows what will happen to them and state of their imaan.
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Insaniyat, you argument is baseless. Hazrat Musa AH was also raised in house of a kafir, does that make Hazrat Musa AH less fortunate? his followers less blessed? No. Whoever recited kalima before death might be considered Muslim, but those unfortunate ones who were not able to see the light of Islam only Allah swt knows what will happen to them and state of their imaan.
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Changez buddy...Hazrat Musa was raised by Hazrat Aaliya...and I hope i dont have to tell you what the importance is for Hazrat Aaliya in Islam
its just sad that muslims have to call Hazrat Abu Talib a kaafir...but its not shocking because the fathers of other important figures were kaafir so how can the father of Imam Ali (as) be muslim?
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*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
Changez buddy...Hazrat Musa was raised by Hazrat Aaliya...and I hope i dont have to tell you what the importance is for Hazrat Aaliya in Islam
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Please do tell me about Hazrat Aaliya, I can't recall it now. Thanks. Was Hazrat Aaliya a believer? I just can't recall it.
[quote]
its just sad that muslims have to call Hazrat Abu Talib a kaafir...but its not shocking because the fathers of other important figures were kaafir so how can the father of Imam Ali (as) be muslim?
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It is sad, yes. But our criteria of calling a "Muslim" a Muslim is? What I remember of history is that when Hazrat Abu Talib was on death bed Prophet Mohammed PBUH asked him to say kalima so that he dies as a "believer" but he refused as he was afraid that Quresh/pagans will call him coward/weak.
Only Allah swt knows whether he will be treated as a believer or not. I think there is a verse regarding above issue, I can't recall it either :(.
Do you know a different history? If so, please do share.
Changez,
Pharaoh's wife has been cited in the Qur'an as an example for the believers
(66.011) And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";
(66.012) And Mary the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)
PakistaniAbroad: To be mentioned with Mary is an honour in itself.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Changez,
Pharaoh's wife has been cited in the Qur'an as an example for the believers
(66.011) And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";
(66.012) And Mary the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)
PakistaniAbroad: To be mentioned with Mary is an honour in itself.
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Thanks PA ..this is exactly what i was talking about
Changez...
I dont agree with the incident you wrote earlier that Prophet (pbuh) asked him to read Kalima and He said no...I just dont agree with that at all..you see we can't believe everything in our history books..we need to see what makes sense and what doesnt..Hazrat Musa (pbuh) and Hazrat Eisa (pbuh) were raised by the believers so you think the best of them all...our greatest Prophet (pbuh) would be raised by a non believer?
SOrry I haven't read much of the discussion but about Hazrat Abu Talib (as), we believe he was a believer much like his father, Abdul Muttalib (The Prophet's Grandfather). Hazrat Abdul Muttalib's belief is widely acknowledged by all scholars and is proven by his answer to Abraha (Ashaabi Feel) "God will protect the Ka'aba". Some ppl go as far as to claim the Prophet's parents (naozubillah) were non-muslims too and this is not true. There are many anectedotes that prove Hazrat Abu Talib believed in and attested to his nephew's Prophethood (saw). But the most convincing form comes from the Quran itself which mentions the only disbeliever of thePrphet's uncles, Abu Lahab.
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*Originally posted by Rhia: *
But the most convincing form comes from the Quran itself which mentions the only disbeliever of thePrphet's uncles, Abu Lahab.
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Rhia a quote would refresh my memory .. thanks.
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Originally posted by Rhia: *
...But the most convincing form comes from the Quran itself which mentions the **only disbeliever of thePrphet's uncles*, Abu Lahab.
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Please do share the verse.
Surah Lahab of course. 30th Chapter
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Please do share the verse.
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aur bhai hamari baat say kuch agree nahi kertay kiya? agree nahi kertay to bhi bolo mere bhai
Rhia, how does Surah Lahab prove Hazrat Abu Talib believed in and attested to his nephew's Prophthood ???
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Rhia, how does Surah Lahab prove Hazrat Abu Talib believed in and attested to his nephew's Prophthood ???
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BTW, PA thanks for the verses regarding wife of Pharaoh.
What was name of Hazrat Musa AH's mother? and religion?
Musa's birth mother was a believer.. as we're told by Allah:
[28:7] So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Moses: "Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our messengers."
[28:10] But there came to be a void in the heart of the mother of Moses: She was going almost to disclose his (case), had We not strengthened her heart (with faith), so that she might remain a (firm) believer.
PakistaniAbroad: I haven't come across her name in the Qur'an.. but hadith buffs will be able to tell you that.. it might be borrowed from Judaeo-Christian sources.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Rhia, how does Surah Lahab prove Hazrat Abu Talib believed in and attested to his nephew's Prophthood ???
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Sorry, my point was that those (within close relations of the Prophet)who really were disbelievers have been specifically mentioned in the Quran. Abu Talib hasn't been. Can you please prove from the very same that Hazrat Abu Talib DID NOT believe in and attest to his nephew's Prphethood or that indeed he was an idolator, especially after standing by all the way with the Prophet (saw) throughout his life?
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*Originally posted by Rhia: *
Sorry, my point was that those (within close relations of the Prophet)who really were disbelievers have been specifically mentioned in the Quran. Abu Talib hasn't been. Can you please prove from the very same that Hazrat Abu Talib DID NOT believe in and attest to his nephew's Prphethood or that indeed he was an idolator, especially after standing by all the way with the Prophet (saw) throughout his life?
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Brother, the sura that you mentioned is specifically about Lahab so how would you go and use it to "prove" it about others? Just curious, how does "stand by" count as "belief"? Do you have a hadith which tells that Hazrat Abu Talib pronounced kalima or believed in Tauheed, Messengers of Allah swt etc.?
As I said before there is plenty of evidence to show Abu Talib believed in Muhammed's Prophethood. From the incidence of the monk Buhayra who saw the signs of Prophethood of the young Muhammad (pbuh) travelling with Abu Talib to his exile by the Quraysh to his testament on many occasions of his faith "in the God of Muhammed". Abu Talib's love, respect and protection for his nephew was because he knew he was the last messenger of God.
Three facts stand out in particular in support of Abu Talib's faith:
1- All muslim's agree Fatma bint Assad the wife of Abu Talib was indeed Muslim and was the second woman to accept the Prophet's message after Hazrat Khadija. So the question is, could a muslim woman ever remain married to an unbeliever (if indeed Abu Talib was one)?
2-Abu Talib was the person who read the Nikah of Hazrat Muhammad (saw) and Bibi Khadija. How could a non-believer ever read the nikah of 2 believers?
3-At his death, within a few months of Khadija'h passing away, the Prophet called that the year of Sorrow. The Prophet specifically prayed for the maghfirat of his beloved uncle Abu Talib (as). He would NOT have done that for an unbeliever.
I could go on but those three points are the most crucial.
The fact is you base your belief of Hazrat Abu Talib on mere conjecture, nothing more.
brother??? :)
How does knowing Abu Talib's belief help any of us? Talk about debating an issue of no significance.
Well for a start it will help to clear your misunderstanding and enable you not to label muslims as kafirs. Its not as irrelevent as you seem to think!
Rhia?
What made you learn of Gods teachings? Was it your parents? What inspired you?
What was it that happend inside you that you could quote passages of the Holy Koran? or the Bible?
Rhia
According to my opinion, Abu Talib protected Muhammad SAW while he was alive and died a pagan. At his death, Muhammad prayed for him.
Narrated Al-Musaiyab:
When Abu Talib was in his death bed, the Prophet went to him while Abu Jahl was sitting beside him. The Prophet said, "O my uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, an expression I will defend your case with, before Allah." Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Umaya said, "O Abu Talib! Will you leave the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib?" So they kept on saying this to him so that the last statement he said to them (before he died) was: "I am on the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib." Then the Prophet said, " I will keep on asking for Allah's Forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden to do so." Then the following Verse was revealed:--
"It is not fitting for the Prophet and the believers to ask Allah's Forgiveness for the pagans, even if they were their near relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire." (9.113)
The other Verse was also revealed:-- "(O Prophet!) Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He will ......." (28.56) (Sahih Bukhari 5.223. also Sahih Bukhari 2.442, Sahih Bukhari 6.197, Sahih Bukhari 6.295)
Or do you think that the Qur'aanic verse was not revealed after this incident?