Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

And interesting article on more and more Jews standing up against the pro-Israel lobby. I’ve always maintained that anti-Zionism is nto anti-semitism, and that the purported link between the two has been created and maintained by pro-Zionists to try and deflect criticism of Israel.

Hopefull this courageous stance by prominent Jews in Britain (and elsewhere) will lay the foundations for countries at some time in the future to take a stronger stance against Israel’s acts of evil without fear of being labelled anti-Jewish.

A group of prominent British Jews will today declare independence from the country’s Jewish establishment, arguing that it puts support for Israel above the human rights of Palestinians.
Independent Jewish Voices will publish an open letter on the Guardian’s Comment is Free website calling for a freer debate about the Middle East within the Jewish community. Among the more than 130 signatories are Stephen Fry, Harold Pinter, Mike Leigh, Jenny Diski and Nicole Farhi, as well as leading academics such as Eric Hobsbawm and Susie Orbach.

“We come together in the belief that the broad spectrum of opinion among the Jewish population of this country is not reflected by those institutions which claim authority to represent the Jewish community as a whole,” the letter says. Jewish leaders in Britain, it argues “put support for the policies of an occupying power above the human rights of an occupied people” in conflict with Jewish principles of justice and compassion.

The statement does not name the institutions it is criticising. But one signatory, Brian Klug, an Oxford philosopher, writing an accompanying article on Comment is Free, singles out the Board of Deputies of British Jews for calling itself “the voice of British Jewry” while devoting “much of the time and resources of its international division to the defence of Israel”.

Mr Klug also criticises Britain’s chief rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sacks, for telling a pro-Israeli rally in London last year: “Israel, you make us proud.”

“Others felt roughly the opposite emotion,” Mr Klug writes.

The emergence of the group, which calls itself a “network of individuals” and can be found at www.ijv.org.uk comes at a time of ferment over attitudes towards Israel, stoked by the war in Lebanon and the bloodshed in the occupied territories. The question of whether radical opposition to Israeli policies necessarily amounts to anti-Semitism is central to the debate.

The row was brought to a head in recent weeks by the resignation of board members of the Institute of Jewish Policy Research (IJPR) after it emerged that its director, Antony Lerman, had voiced support for the merging of Israel with the Palestinian territories into a single bi-national federation and a repeal of the “law of return” giving the right of anyone of Jewish descent to Israeli citizenship.

Stanley Kalms, the former head of the Dixons Group, stepped down as the IJPR’s honorary vice president, saying Mr Lerman’s views made his position “untenable”. Writing in the Jewish Chronicle, Lord Kalms called his views “dangerous and unacceptable” and “contrary to my concept of the role of the diaspora - to support the State of Israel, warts and all”.

The row has brought furious exchanges to the Jewish Chronicle’s letter pages. “Some of our biggest mailbags lately have been prompted by prominent Jewish public figures voicing dissenting views of Israel, which typically provokes angry rebukes from other members of the community,” David Rowan, the editor, said.

A parallel struggle is under way in the US where the American Jewish Committee published an article accusing liberal Jews such as the historian Tony Judt of fuelling anti-Semitism by questioning Israel’s right to exist. The essay by Alvin Rosenfeld said that “one of the most distressing features of the new anti-Semitism” was “the participation of Jews alongside it”.

Prof Judt told the New York Times: “The link between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is newly created.” He feared the two would become so conflated that references to anti-Semitism and the Holocaust would be seen as “just a political defence of Israeli policy”.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

If only some muslims would do the same and stand up to terrorism instead concoting conspiracy theories or justifying them

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

^^

It’s already been done, it just doesn’t never gets much press coverage.

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

I have nothing against Jews but only Zionists. There are some really wonderful people out there that happen to be Jews. The Jews would have more creditability if they started to distance themselves from Israel now rather than to wait until the writing is clearly on the wall.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

Well what is clear that Israel has to think realistically about Palestine.

Israel cannot control all of West Bank and has to withdraw.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

hey or they can go the route of a confederationgive em all israeli citizenships and right to vote.

That is a scenario they simply dont want.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

Well that is exactly what Antony Lerman, the director of the Institute of Jewish Policy Research suggested - making Israelis and Palestinians equal within a united state. As a result the Institute’s zionist vice-president, Lord Kalms, resigned. Lord Kalms believes that Jews are obligated to support Israel no matter what Israel does.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

That will never ever happen

That will make Jews a minority in Israel

and thus completely negate the purpose of Israel in which Jews are a majority

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

I know this will never happen.
but if the palestinians decide to give up their struggle and ask for an equal vote .. then what would your stance be? what would the stance be for all of us who cherish democracy?

a two state solution is the only realistic long term option...period.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

Yup, a two state solution is the only realistic period

But as long as Hamas and their backers have this dream of creating Palestine on the whole of Israel, then the conflict will continue.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

Israeli Arabs are not treated well.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/29/israeli_arabs/index.html

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

I agree, however at the same time, by stalling the progression towards a two state solution due to the acts of hamas, people are playing into the hands of these folks. I mean if you want peace and a two state solution, you do it regardless, you do it against all odds.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

The problem is that if Israel withdraws to the 67 Greenline and dismantle the settlement, Israel will be strategically vulnerable

The West Bank is only 10 minutes away from Tel Aviv Airport. Hamas can move in weaponry and attack Tel Aviv and its Airport

What guarantee does Israel have that once it withdraws and gives up such a strategic area that Palestinians simply wont think that this is the end game and then decide to launch further attacks

The Palestinian mindset has to change but as long as their sponsors are encouraging them to destroy Israel, then there will be no peace

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

The above situation has two flaws.

1)Regardless of its strategic position, Israel will still maintain overwhelming military supriority. Any negation of a 1967-based peace treaty by the Palestinians would swiftly result in a reoccupation of the West bank, and all the Palestinian factions knwo they could not stop it

2) Even Hamas has said that it would accept a peace beased on the 1967 lines, as long as it was subject to renewal every couple of years.

Any withdrawal to 1967 boundaries would have to involve a demilitarised zone being created to maintain Israel's strategic depth. The resulting Palestinian state would not be permitted to posess heavy weapons (tanks, missiles and artillery) and would not be permitted to join any neighbouring arab country.

Israel would be forced to concede Palestinian control of borders, allowing the Palestinians rather than Israeli troops to control the Palestinian state's borders.

Israel will over time completely close off the 1967 border with a concrete wall. From Israel's point of view, a tall concrete wall all around the 1967 border would have a secodnary advantage in that it would make it considerably harder to target mortars and rockets against the other side since you could not see the target zone.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

Even if Israel is Military superior, that did not stop Hezbollah from firing Katusha rockets at Israel. Why don't you think that once Israel withdraws that West Bank will be flooded with rockets, missiles and others which they can fire at Israel like Hezbollah did.

That proposal is a joke. So basically they are saying that they will make peace with Israel once Israel withdraws to the 67 borders and then every 2 or 3 years they will renew hostilities unless more demands are met like allowing the refugees back into Israel, or Israel giving up more territory, if not, they will start firing at Israel and since Tel Aviv can be reached by their Qassam rocekets and Israeli Air Force is not designed to hunt these small Rocket squads, they can get away with it.

What Strategic Depth?

Israel at its narrowest is only 10km wide from the West Bank to the Mediterranean. There is no room for a Strategic Depth. This is one of the main reasons that Israel has nuclear weapons to deter a potential invasion of Arab Armies.

And who exactly is going to guarantee that?

Yes, that will probably happen

How will a 20 feet wall prevent rockets from being fired? Rocekts fly in the air, I doubt the Israelis will build a wall that is 1,000 feet in the air.

Israelis have a wall on their Northern Border, and it has not done much good.

The main rationale is this. Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims have to accept Israel's right to exist. And have to negotiate with Israel in a framework which recognizes its right to exist on the 67 Borders and not some dream of re-establishing Palestine on all of Israel and the expulsion of Jews.

Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria and many in the arab and Islamic world still beleive that this should be done and thus the unending war in that region.

The sooner they accept Israel's right to exist the better.

What incentive does Israel have to withdraw and give up such strategic areas when all it will do is give its enemies a more closer vantage point to attack Israel

Look at the way Israel withdrew from the Sinai once Sadat negotiated peace with Israel.

Israelis are not these bloodthirsty, evil savages who want to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. they want to live in peace

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

^^ reg' your last statement.
Ask an Israelie what the 2 blue lines represent on either side (top & bottom) of the star of David on the Israelie flag.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

^^ irrelevant

the fact is that israelis have withdrew from the sinai when egypt made peace and almost withdrew from the golan in 1995 when they almost made peace with syria

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

even if every single muslim stood up against terrorism - your bigoted mind would still not be able to see that.

Perpetual demonization of Muslims is so rampant, its become fact in the eyes of many. when its really just bigots like you, pushing the zionist propaganda, who opine such stuff.

Vast overwhelming majority of Muslims are against terrorism, it actually hurts us a lot more then it does anyone else!! Muslims largely suffer due to these terrorist activities more then any one else, as is evident by any one of the attacks that have occured in the recent past.

Ignorance maybe bliss but its actually hurting the populations in the west. I can see how it must be beneficial to war mongering bigots to keep people from seeing the truth by calling everything other thent he "reality" they have concocted to sell to the masses, a "conspiracy"!!

People in third world countries are very very familiar with teh "conspiracies" you speak of, b/c they witness and suffer them in thier daily lives!

so why dont u try and feed your "truth" to someone else who is ignorant, or bigoted enough to listen! I think the people of the third world know way too much to turn a blind eye, and pretend to be ignoratns of the facts that you want to "conpiracy". Its not going to be that easy to marginilize the truth!

Furthermore, Muslims dont have the sole proprieters, or the only authority on terrorism!! its not like Muslims invented it.

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

^^

Originally Posted by mercenary2k
*If only some muslims would do the same and stand up to terrorism instead concoting conspiracy theories or justifying them]

**
as for Muslims reaching out to Jewsih people!!
Lets look at the Muslims are treated in the only Jewish country - i.e. Israel!! and hten lets look at the Jews in Muslim countries world over!! The atrocities perpetuated by the state of Israel upon the Muslim people, in response to their creed is far worse then anything the state of Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, or any other Muslim state has inflicted on their Jewsih populations.

Muslims history is a testament of Muslim good will towards the Jewsih people. Its a shame that some war mongering bigots are creating friction, where there was once friendship!
**
*

Re: Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

Its such bull **** when people start to resort to things like Muslims are all anti-semetic! what the hell just look at the numbers!!! Just look at the brutal facts!!! look at how many Muslims are killed at the hands of Jews, and how many Jews at the hands of Muslims!! the disparities are tooo extreme!

though i think its a pointless debate! but to walk around suggesting that Israeli government is innocent, and Muslims are the only villans defies logic.

You can not continue to cover up the blood baths with smoke mirrors! people are looking past the facade and seeing the truth!!!

However like i said this debat is futile! the discussion needs to be less muslim vs. Jews (b/c then it will never end...and perhaps thats the reason why its encouraged!), and more neo-con vs. liberal

do we want a world where the strong can do anything they want, where only handful have the right to everything, or do we want a world where we all can live in peace and share all that we have!
We need to look at whats sustaining the Israelis - Palestinians conflict. Money, pure economics are a huge factor, race and religion are only marginal factors that only allow for the conflict which is perpatuated to continue!

There is the millitary industrial complex, we need to address that, we need to address Israel's dependency on this vile but powerful group. The neo-con agenda being pushed y AIPAC is actually hurting all of us, including jews, and defintely Muslims!