Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]

[X_Communist]

Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

I was wondering where this post had gone Didnt know a whole new thread had been started. Glad I found it. Really stimulates room for research.

@zer01

**{ **Important: Please read post # 19 for instruction regarding format of this thread. thankyou. }

I have also seen shia saying bismillahhh! in the same situation.

BTW, the thing which is plain shirk to you is acceptable by esteemed deobandi / hanafi ulema like Ashraf Ali Thanvi, Maulana Haji Imdadallah Muhajr Makki, Maulana Husayn Ahmad Madani as all three scholars have deemed it permissible to seek help via Imam Ali (as) due to his position as a Hadi (Guide), to the point that all three have recorded the following supplication in their books:

O remove ignorance from us, and enlighten us with realities and knowledge, through Ali, your true Guide of Knowledge.

another thing, if you really think that Ali (as) is dead then consider reading ayah *2:154 in quran with its tafseer. *

happy ramazan!

Zer01-- I do not follow deobandi,hanafi uleyma like thanvi/makki or madani and if you see my original thread, i’ve agreed to sunnis commiting farrrrrr more shirk than any other followers.

Now coming back to topic. The ayat reference you gave me-- Surah Baqrah # 254. I will not go into the tafseer because, for obvious reasons, we differ. We’ll just go with the basic, word-for-word translation.

2:154: And say not of those who are SLAIN in God’s cause, “They are dead”: nay, they are alive, but you perceive it not.

The arabic for slain is ‘qatal’. In this ayat it is : ‘yuqtalu’

Two more examples of the word SLAIN/qatal are:

2:72 For, O children of Israel, because you had SLAIN a human being and then cast the blame for this [crime] upon one another -although God will bring to light what you would conceal. (Arabic for slain in this ayat is : ‘qataltum’

3:144 AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him: if, then, he dies or is SLAIN, will you turn about on your heels? (arabic for slain in this ayat is: ‘qutila’)

Mohammad was not SLAIN. He died a natural death or departed naturally(as CR would like to hear it).

Coming to Ali, yes, he was assasinated and hence SLAIN. But what I dont see in this ayat is an indication to ask the SLAIN to help us, it just says they are alive (where? we arent told, how? we arent told). Instead I see teh ayat posted by teh user above:

Allah SWT says in Surah Baqarah to Muhammad SAW to inform us that when we invoke to Him, He hears us, and that He replies to our invocations.

–If Allah SWT is directly telling us that there is no need for a medium between Him and us, then why try otherwise?—

It would be correct to say Ali is not dead like the rest of us who die but would it be correct to ADD the fact taht we can ask him for help EVEN if its through teh ‘VIA’ route? Surely you arent commiting such a sin of adding to the words of Allah…or are you?

@Code_Red

I will disscuss these belief, ideas wrong practices later but first another error which needs our attention.

X-communist said in other thread
quote–
Ali is dead just like Mohammad adn neither can be called upon for help in this world. .
–unquote

Just before going to discussion of seeking help, We all need to understand the concept of death in islam.

The english word dead is not suitable and it does not describe the phenomina of death of a person as per islamic point of view. The most aptly descriptive word for death is an urdu word “in-te-qaal” When someone dies we say 'Falaan sahab ka Inteqaal ho ga gaya hai" inteqaal means transfer

And it describes the phenomena of death in islam perfectly. Islamically, A person is a combination of body and soul. Death is for body, soul just transfer from this body to another world, and then it lives in this world (Barzakh) for unknown time period and then on the day of judgment itwill be joined with the same body as told in quran.

So calling a person dead, does not describes the state of person completely.

Better we should say

the person is no more with us.
The person has departed.

Im sorry but I dont see the need for correction here. You say taht teh most aply word for death in URDU is in te qaal. I had not defined death in urdu and I dont think my post was in Urdu. Had it been in Urdu and I said chal diyay or mar gaye, your correction would’ve made sense.

Lets not get into teh websters of death or person or body or soul. death simply means cessation of vital organs and vital organs are considered your heart,brain,.. I didnt mention the soul. I simiply said both cannot be called upon in this world for help and I still stand by that. You can refer to teh post above mine or the ayat I quoted above.

@pinks

As far as using naik ppl as a waseela, well my approach is this; after Muhammad SAW’s death, to date, I have not come across any account of ppl like Hazrat Abu Bakr/ Umar, etc constantly using the Prophet SAW as a waseela… so if such great muslims did not use the greatest man as a waseela, then why should we? When I need something, I ask Allah SWT for it DIRECTLY, he is As-Sami, Al-Bari, so I dont see the need to go through someone else.

“And who is more astray than one who calls on (invokes) besides Allaah, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them?
And when mankind are gathered (on the Day of Resurrection), they (false deities) will become their enemies and will deny their worshipping”

[al-Ahqaaf 46:6]

May Allah SWT protect me, my family and all Muslims from shirk, Amin.

Wassalam

I read this without a biased mind. Give it a try. I dont think a person could explain it any easier and factly than these handful of words. May Allah keep us all away from Shirk.