Re: preaching by reasoning
Correction my dear Atlantis..please don't say "Islam flies against the face of obvious common knowledge".. rather you need to say that Islam flies against the face of "your" opinions based on "your" knowledge of islam.. You have forced me once again to ask u that personal & intrusive question again." Have u read & attempted to understand the Quran?".
If not then what is the basis of ur understanding of Islam.
Re: preaching by reasoning
Correction my dear Atlantis..please don't say "Islam flies against the face of obvious common knowledge".. rather you need to say that Islam flies against the face of "your" opinions based on "your" knowledge of islam.. You have forced me once again to ask u that personal & intrusive question ." Have u read & attempted to understand the Quran?".
If not then what is the basis of ur understanding of Islam.
Re: preaching by reasoning
sorry for the double posting
Re: preaching by reasoning
you missed out what i said in the private message that “the hadith is an outright fabrication: Al Ijluni confirmed in Kashf al Khafa (1744) that al Suyuti, Ibn Hajar, al Zarkashi and others all declared the hadith ‘baseless’”
Re: preaching by reasoning
Thanx gupguppy..Well Trooper, what say u now?.. But at least u've attempted to give me a reference though..even if it has been dubbed baseless.
Re: preaching by reasoning
Good question. There is no contradiction.
Do you believe that the non-Law bearing Prophets (i.e. the ones that were not given a new book) mentioned in the Holy Quran received revelations from Allah?
Revelation is not just to reveal knowledge that was not known before, it is also meant to “re-reveal” the truth that has been lost/forgotten over time. Many Hindus, Christians, Budhists, Jews and even Muslims were given truth by their respective Prophets, but over time the truth was lost. Majority of Muslims have lost truth that was revealed to Holy Prophet (SA) (we have ~72 sects today, they can not all be right at the same time). Present day condition of Muslims and their status in the world is also a testament to that fact. Obviously there are contradicting opinions.
That is what Imam Mahdi/Massih-e-Maud (AS) is suppose to correct after receiving revelation from Allah, to guide not only the Muslims but also call non-Muslims to the right path and to gather them under the flag of true Islam.
This brings me to gupguppy’s post – putting that Hadith aside for a moment, many Muslims today are await for supposed return of Jesus (AS) of Nazrath (literally, in person). According to your belief, will he(AS) receive revelations from Allah when he is here? If so, how can you claim that doors to revelations have now been closed for ever?
Re: preaching by reasoning
Ahh..Thank u Trooper..U have finally come to the point.
First of all, tell me where is it written that imam mahdi will be a prophet..And secondly Jesus(AS) will not come to reveal new information or introduce something new..He will come back to complete unfinished buisiness.. He taught what he had to & then Mohammed (PBUH)completed the rest ( & i really mean completed as per his last sermon)..Did u know that Imam Mahdi & Jesus (AS) will both be present at the same time.. The job at the time will be to lead the muslims & guide them when their morales will be at the lowest ebb.. He will give testomany to the Christians & prove that he is not what they have portrayed him to be.( ie son of God!!)..will he receive revelations from God?.. i dont feel he will tell us anything different from what Mohammad (PBUH) has already taught or given us in the form of the Quran , so from that perspective i dont feel they will be revelations...Will he be in contact with God , possibly(God knows better), but not in the form of revelations.
And by the way, from both of ur threads one cant help but conclude that there is'nt much difference b/w the 2 types of prophets , apart from some having a holy script & others not as u have claimesd that both will receive revelations.
Re: preaching by reasoning
Doc, why did you chose to ignore the first part of that sentence which is:
I will extend you the benefit of doubt that you’re not doing this on purpose and that you’re genuinely mistaken. So here is a refresher:
For example, is itn’t an obvious common knowledge that Islam allows polygamy (4 simultaneous wives)? I suggested this be changed. Are you going to claim again that my suggestion has already been incorporated?
Re: preaching by reasoning
Atlantis, you seem to know God more than He’s told us about Himself..
it does say in the quran that its the final word of God and a seal to other revelations… (dont remember which verse)..
Re: preaching by reasoning
The only thing my friend that i am doing on purpose is give an argument..I would never give an argument if i never believed in something so strongly or even had a doubt about something & u don't have to give me the benefit of doubt if u don't want to..I am giving u valid reasons for my beliefs & it does'nt in the least matter to me if u entertain them or not, but i feel i take it a duty upon my self to clear ur misconceptions of Islam. ( i believe u would be a mature, intelligent adult to make up ur own mind at the end..u have ur destiny & i have mine)
Now lets get back to the point at hand.. the points u have made in ur thread are correct..i cant see where i've gone wrong. Yes, i asked u "what changes", u've given them, to me these are within the premises of Islam already, so i've told u that. U on the other hand have'nt given me a viable argument as to what Islam already says about them.
U have accused me of ignoring some sentences..well i think i've also on at least 2 occasions asked u a simple question which u have ignored..So i ask u again , lets change the phrase this time:
What is the basis or source of your information of Islam?
You've asked me another question about polygamy ( a favourite question often posed by our fellows here in the west).
I can & will give u a perfect answer for that, but before i do that , i will like to ask u first as to what is ur knowledge about polygamy in Islam and what is ur source of information about it...& please give me some valid points and not just "blind opinions".
If ur answers are based on evidence and interpretation, then we may be able to have a good healthy discussion, if its personal opinion, then again i'll say we'll wasting our times.
I wait ur answers for the above questions anxiuosly!!.
Re: preaching by reasoning
as a matter of fact I do know God a lot better than any book or prophet has let out to be. Isn’t that a good thing? you make it sound like a crime!
So what if Quron says it’s final? the whole point of this arguement is how the heck to you deide that God won’t change his mind?
Re: preaching by reasoning
doc2k - how about this? just deal with a simple case first. Why is it fair law to allow a man 4 wives?
don't give me quotes, or what others said or what Quron said or what the prophet said. Tell me, in your words.
Re: preaching by reasoning
Atlantis, for the umpteenth time, answer my simple question in thread number 50 first..are u ashamed to say that u have'nt read/attempted to understand the quran & that all ur statements are based on "personal opinion?" ... Be rest assured that i have no problem answering ur query..but i first need to know where ur words/ideas come from so that i may be able to deal with them accordingly...i really can't understand why ur dodging the question!!
Re: preaching by reasoning
So, he will be “possibly” in “contact” with God, but not through revelations? then how? This thing needs clarification. We can not move forward unless this absurdity is resolved. Either he will be in “contact” with Allah or he will not be. Which one is it? If he will be in “contact” with Allah then the contact has not been severed for ever then, has it? Or you’ll have to make a statement that “when Jesus (AS) comes back then he will not be in communications with Allah”. Decide, and let us know.
Difference between the two types of Prophets is pretty big. One type brings new Law/Sharia from Allah, the second type is not really bringing any new law, but calling people back to what had already been revealed before, but was lost over a period of time. That is where they need revelation from Allah. To rediscover truth, and remind people what they have forgotten over time.
Re: preaching by reasoning
Trooper, man does not know everything,,Only God knows if Jesus(AS) will be in contact with him,,what i am sure about is that Jesus will not be bringing anything new to us as we already have it completed from the prophet (PBUH) and the Quran..He will only be coming to complete unfinished buisness,The Quran mentions his return as he still has to die a natural death...And where on earth did u get this notion that contact only means revelations (as it seems implied by your post)..
Did u know that Mohammad (PBUH) received instructions from God via angel Gabriel at times of war as what to do and where to go..do u also call those revelations?.. so whenever Jesus(AS) does come back & receives instructions , would u call them revelations? ..
Coming back to ur post..Jesus comes into neither of the categories u've described,not the 1st for obvious reasons and not the 2nd one either accordin gto ur definition above as islam has not been lost over time..It is still present with us, and always has been since its inception.
Try to understand the definition of "revelation" & also read ur Islamic history ( and history predating islam & then it wont too absurd to you)
Re: preaching by reasoning
don’t worry about where my ideas come from - nothing to be ashamed of - they come directly from God. Now stop being a spineless clerk. If you don’t give me a straight answer now, that’s it - I will know you for the fakeness of your convictions:D
Re: preaching by reasoning
So your answer is “I dont know is Jesus (AS) will be in contact with God”? Is that right? So the discussion is effectively over then?
You will have to bend over backwards, twist your own beliefs many times just to take a “shot” at the truth. That is the very nature of falshood.
Re: preaching by reasoning
Atlantis my friend if i had known right from the start that ur opinions are just ur own without bothering to see/read what Islam actually says about them , i would have told u to go get ur facts right first & then even think of attempting to criticise/accuse/demand changes in islam..
However, though you don't deserve it , i will still pay u the courtesy of answering ur self opinionated question.
You have asked me not to give quotes or quranic version of this topic of polgamy but my own words, while u have questioned this topic in Islam itself. How hypocritical of u!!..when one does not have logical answers, one tends to resort to these methods.
However, to satisfy ur ego, i will give u my own thoughts along with direct quotes from the quran as thats my first port of call & my reference points( If u dont have any reference point, then tough luck to you & maybe u should have spent sometime doing ur homework rather just talking about ur baseless opinions/accusations of Islam). If u want to discuss just personal opinions i suggest u open up a new thread or go to a different forum as i believe that we are in the religious forum & initial thread was preaching by reasoning in Islam.
Ok, first my own thoughts. I believe that polygamy should'nt be allowed in this day & age...plain & simple, on what to i base that? on the very Quran itself.
Now lets see what the Quran says:
If you ever get the chance or can even be bothered, open up the following verses in the Quran & you'll be surprised at ur own misconceptions or false accusations of Islam.
Verse 4:3 was revealed when the prophet(PBUH) was in Madina & had just been defeated in the battle of Uhud.. There were not many muslims (population wise ) at the time and during the battle many men folk were martyred.. Many females were left widowed and children orphaned. Widows of that time ( & even now in many countries) were pre-islamically looked down upon & isolated from society ( something still visible in the subcontinent in this day and age)..Because of these circumstances, Allah sent down this verse and gave permission to muslims men that they may take upto 4 wives to balance the equation and also show widows due respect and also so that orphans could continue to be part of family unit..If u read with tafseer u will also note that though permission was granted, it had very strict prerequisites.. those were, first of all that one had to gain permission from their wives ( very difficult in this day & age) first.. the second being that all wives had to be dealt equally, Being humans that is very difficult ( even the prophet(PBUH) found this difficult with all his perfections & often asked God for forgiveness.
It further goes on to say that if these pre-requisites are'nt followed then man will be answerable to God & God will hold account all those who practice polygamy..also mentioned in this verse is further reasons for this allowance ( at the time). Apart from taking care of women & orphans , it was to avoid social problems & to prevent major sins such as illegal sex & prostitution ( as was also rife in those days).. and it clearly states that intentions should not be for sexual pleasure( as one wife is enough for that) or male privelages or ego.
Later, when Mecca was conquered, and there was mass conversions to Islam, Allah then sent down another revelation ( and again incase u want evidence its in verse 4:129)..
This verse states that Allah discouraged & demanded a stop to this practice as it was no longer the need of the hour & also it is clearly mentioned that Allah says that man is unable to be fair to more than 1 wife even though he may desire to be. So 2 things u can take out of it, first was that permission was granted when it was required & 2nd was that God gave man a chance to be able to test for himself his levels of fairness to more than 1 spouse and man failed due to which it was discouraged.
So what u can take out of it is that it was allowed when it was the need of the hour..and discouraged & adviced to stop it when it was'nt...It is still in the Quran , so common sense says that if a similar situation to Madina arose again, it could be used ( obviously with all the pre-requisites)...but that is not the case currently so it is highly discouraged & not recommended.
Revelations came to the prophet (PBUH) for 23 yrs and there were particular verses for particular circumstances ( like the example above).
Unfortunately muslims of today open the quran & read something without attempting to understand the context. they take virgin wives for their own sexual pleasure which is completely out of synch with qurans teachings...And then allow people like u to have a field day by degrading islam..Obviously, i blame the ignorant muslims for that.
I go to work, i wear trousers a shirt a tie, i don't have a beard (not that theres anything wrong with it), i am able to sit with colleagues of the opposite sex & have a professional relationship with them with out any thoughts of me thinking i'm of a superior sex ( another misconception)..il like to go out and enjoy myself and have a laugh with family, friends etc but all in moderacy, as thats what my religion teaches me..Islam abores extremism in any shape or form.
I really dont know what kind of muslims u hang out with or get info. from or make examples of, but all i can say is that ur info on Islam is based on pure ignorance..you really have a nerve to come on to this forum and demand changes to something u don't have a clue about..I dont know what ur religion is, but i would never attempt to question it (for the least) let alone ask for a update/innovation without reading about it as my religion forbids talking about something u don't have a clue about plus it would be ignorence and hypocritical on my part.
I think u have chosen an appropriate name for yrself (atlantis) as yr opinions are as non existent as ur name.
I think i have given u more time than u deserve as i had promised to answer your unresearched query.
I dont think i want to further this discussion with yourself as you are too opinionated which are based on ignorence....If u have any evidence in the future to accusations of Islam ( not based on your direct contact with God???)
be more coherent & logical , otherwise u won't be getting any replies from me!
Good luck .
Re: preaching by reasoning
If nothing is written as to what kind of contact Jesus will have with God, who am i to comment on it( do u want me to make a comment just for arguments sake?)..and how does that prove that my beliefs are wrong ( please explain!!)..Do u know everything that is going to happen in ur religion? if not then does that make your beliefs ill-founded..I think as i've mentioned b4 i have enough evidence for myself to believe that Islam is the truth!!..I know Jesus(AS) will come as my religion tells me that..but unfornately for ur sake i don't know what kind of contact Jesus will have from God ( and neither is it important for me to look for something so petty) ..all i know is that he will not be preaching something new or giving us new rules or regulations but enhancing our understanding of what we already have ..Islam...U seem to be dazzling with info. re coming of prophets or contacts with God ( as u seem to be obsessed with it!!) so please enlighten us with ur thoughts.
Re: preaching by reasoning
doc2000,
Islamic literature has a good portion of it dedicated to the last days and the decline of muslims. All the books of ahadith, including the sahah sittah have in clear words prophecised the decline of muslims, the worsening condition of faith, the signs which clearly indicated the era of industrial revolution and colonization and appearance of a person who will be guided by Allah to bring victory for the cause of Islam., i.e., Mahdi
In addition to this, Jesus is also foretold to be descending in the ummah. He will also do the same as Mahdi., i.e., fight the opponents of Islam.
The enemy for the muslims in this scenario has been mentioned by name., He will be Dajjal. The liar. Who will have a massive following of the jews and Romans (christians). The signs about Dajjal are numerous. Your faith tells you to believe him as a person with a certain appearance. I am surprised that you will also (probably) believe that his donkey, on which he will ride will be 70 cubits wide. This strange animal will have a shiny light for an eye in the middle of its forehead and will jump from continent to continent in leaps. Similarly, this person, Dajjal, will be carrying (literally) a mountain of grain and a river of water with him. He will also have heaven and hell etc with him and he will have the power to bring people back to life. He will have the power to call the treasures of earth out of the depths.
Such a fantastic description of events is present in ahadith, that it leaves no doubt in one's mind that these are metaphors for the progress this time has seen. All the above are present in ahadith and mullahs tell the people to believe in them.
Descent of the Christ is also an interesting topic. Jesus will descend on a white minaret in the east of damascus. A person with body will be coming down from the outer space with two angels. OK, we can imagine that. What a scene that will be. God can do everything. He can even contradict his own words from Quran which clearly state that no one can climb to heavens with their bodies. But ofcourse, mullah never thought of that, why should u? Right, Jesus has descended upon a white minaret (what white minaret?) to the east of damascus and scholars have gathered around this monument to welcome him. But Jesus refuses to come down! Why? because the minaret has no stairs!!!! (where is the engineer?) well, guess what? Although he came down from the 4th heaven alright, he cannot descend from this minaret, until the scholars find a stair to bring him down.
Literally thinking about the above account leaves us baffled. The contradictions and the pointless rituals. But look at the metaphor and it becomes crystal clear. East of Damscus is the direction of the place of his appearance. Descent means that he will be sent from God. Like iron descended on earth, Quran descended on the Prophet (saw), etc etc. The white minaret is the metaphor for distinction among people and having no stairs means that only those who will recognize his status on their own will accept him among the scholars.
I am just telling you the lengths to which mullah will go to keep you guys waiting for the guided one from Allah. He has mutilated your vision and thoughts. If you have the courage to correct it, than do so without delay as the signs have come and gone, but you still wait for them.
Why talk about revelation you ask? Revelation my friend is the means of man's connection with God. Mubasshiraat and true dreams are revelations. Similarly words also descend upon His chosen servents as revelations. Sahih Muslim states a long hadith about the "descent" of Jesus saying that Allah will reveal to Jesus such and such words. Hence the door of revelation is open.
For the identity of Jesus (as) we have countless ahadith to look through and connect them with Quran. You will find that the Ummat of Muhammad (saw) is blessed of them all. Contact with God is only through true love for the Prophet (saw) and such a contact was achieved by Promised Messiah (as).
The Jesus that you await has passed away, according to clear words of Quran and ahadith. Dead do not come back to life in this world, and the prophets of other nations have nothing to do with the Nation of Muhammad (saw).