preaching by reasoning

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: preaching by reasoning

^^ Blind Faith....thats exactly what the word believe means, No one has seen Allah, no one has seen, Jannah or the Jahanum, or the angels, yet we believe in them. To believe blindly in the Book of Allah swt and in the teachings of his Rasool sas.....is what Islam is all about.

Reasoning would only assures you whats better for you in this world. Consider the following example. Fasting is good for your health, medically prooven, theres the reasoning, it keeps you healthy. Well if thats the only reason you gonna fast, thats all you gonna get; good health. Fastings much more than that.

Lost are those....who think the actions of Osama and Co. were the result of believing blindly in the Quran and Sunnah.

May Allah give us all Hidayah....

PS. This post was in reply to Atlantis Shareef

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Re: preaching by reasoning

hurail, nice try but no cigar. This is getting quite boring - comeone come up with something original

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Re: preaching by reasoning

You are right. To believe that revelation has stopped would be to believe that we are accursed. Knowledge and guidance has always been revealed from Allah, and He continues to reveal it. Those who believe that it has stopped, deliberately choose to shut their eyes and hearts.

Quran is a perfect book which contains all the necessary knowledge and guidance which will guide us through till the time end of human race. However, this does not close the doors on revelation. People will be corrupted over time and will be unable to understand the real meaning of Quran. Therefore, truthful men with pure hearts and piety (Prophets, Mujadids) will come from time to time to guide the misguided and will receive revelation from Him. Even you and I have been blessed with faculties to receive revelations, but our hearts need to be cleansed of lies, greed, ego etc.. Our conduct has to be of highest quality and the fear of Allah (highest form of Taqwa) has to be inculcated in our hearts. Only then will we qualify for communications with Allah.

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Re: preaching by reasoning

Is it taken from any book of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani sahib?

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Oh well…Allah has described in the Quran, in several places, the state of those people who turn a blind eye to his verses. And it is said…to leave such people alone, continous arguments with them will not bring any good.

You have fun with your reasonings…Masalaam

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Re: preaching by reasoning

Atlantis paijaan..You have misquoted me..i never said that prophets will come to different eras, rather they "came" at different eras ( past tense!!!)...like my previous post, i maintain that i do not believe that there will be another prophet..be it an IT era or an era of super robotics..For the simple that yes i have what u have called blind faith..i dont have blind faith b'cos i was born a muslim, but b'cos i have been fortunate enough by the grace of Allah to be given the ability to think logically & reason with what i hear & read..i think i am at a stage in my life ( shukar-alhamdulillah) where i can say that i have blind faith..there are so many things that Islam tells us that we can't ignore.
As for evolution..well as far as the human mind goes, there is no evidence to suggest that the mind has become a more superior organ in the last 1400 yrs..yes, what has happened is that we have made advances in the field of the sciences..the quran had already spoken about various scientific facts that were not known at the time of its revelatation..so people of that time( & thereafter) only understood some parts of the quran that were relevent or made sense to them for that time..B'cos we are "scientifically" more advanced now, we can understand the quran even better ( if we want to!!)...I suppose in another 200-300 yrs there will be more breakthrus in science which might have been mentioned in the quran & is some thing we dont understand now but something that would be understood by people of that era...So its not the religion that now needs to evolve further ( b'cos it has been completed) but rather its our thinking that needs to evolve to be able to understand the quran better.

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Re: preaching by reasoning

Good words Doc

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Re: preaching by reasoning

doc2k - how the heck do you know there won't be anymore prophets? consider this simple scenario.

Say Allah sends down a new prophet - and you go and tell him 'I don't think you're the real thing coz prophets are a thing of past' - wouldn't you be committing a blasphemy?

And if you're going to say Quran said there aint gonna be no more Prophets then look at the state of the world today! 1400 years and what a mess the Islamic belt (middles east) is in! This in spite of having been given a virtual dominance of one of the most precious resources (oil)! Don't you think they need an update badly?

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Re: preaching by reasoning

Atlantis, you are questioning one of the very basic tenets of Islam itself..First of all, if i started believing that there would be another prophet coming, i would have to believe that Islam, the Quran & all of the prophet Mohammads (PBUH) teachings were incomplete and therefore needed to be revamped..The prophet (PBUH) stated in his last speech that "today, i have completed your religion for you"..

Remember, that since the emergence of Islam, there have been many individuals/imposters who claimed to be prophets..can u name any of them?( please do if u know of any!!)..

Why would Allah send down a prophet when he himself has claimed that Mohammad is the seal (PBUH)..So if Allah has commanded it , then it would in fact be a "blasphemy" to believe that another prophet will come, or a "blasphemy" to believe an imposter who will claim to be a prophet.

I think all muslims like yourself are disillusioned by the state of muslims & the behaviour of the middle eastern countries. But is that cos of islams teachings?

Islam was granted to man when very few people believed in a single God & when other religious books (originally the word of God) had been altered by man..That has not happened with the Quran (& God has promised to protect it from evil hands), so if the source of information has not been altered & remains the word of Allah, why would it need to be updated..Are u suggesting that Allah has changed his mind & now feels that the divine book is no longer appropriate for man & needs updating..Now to believe that would be "blasphemy" would'nt it?
It would have been better if u had said that the problem is with the muslims not with Islam or its script.

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Doc2000, Hazrat Muhammad (SA) is the seal of the prophets, yes. How do you jump to the conclusion that he is also the last prophet? One with the seal testifies to the truth of all other prophets, confirms their status as prophets (which he(SA) did) since he has been given that knowledge.

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Trooper, i don't believe that another prophet will be coming because unlike the other holy books ( bible, torah. etc..) the Quran does not mention the arrival of another prophet..If u read the other books, u will come to know that they have foretold the coming of another ( even after being altered) . The Jews rejected Jesus (AH), though they were foretold about his imminent arrival, & the Christians rejected Mohammed (PBUH) even though his arrival is mentioned..If u know of any script that mentions the arrival of another prophet after Mohammed (PBUH), please enlighten me.

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God is certainly capable of changing anything - inluding his mind.

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Ofcourse I am questioning everything. Anything that doesn’t stand up to questioning and has to be held self evident is not worth believing in. Fortunately God has much stronger ways of being proved than by blind faith.

And why do you think Allah is incapable of changing his mind? The very fact that it took more than one version of a prophet shows he was capable of changing and improving. If God is to be held supreme, how can you as a human decide what his limits are? Ofcourse he can change his mind. And he can say he won’t and then change his mind about that too!

I think the fallacy of blindly faithful is that they think of God and religion as answers rather than methods. The moment that happens, the human becomes irrelevant. It would only be a most audacious sinner who thinks God’s prime creation would be irrelevance.

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Re: preaching by reasoning

In my thinking the idea of evolution is of God. Stems from God.

And in my thinking evolution is still evolving.

And the fact evolution still evolves stems solely from God.

Because God decreed so.

You may disagree with me. The way I concieve of God. My concept.

I fathom my one word argument difficult.

The one word is…

Mankind.

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Re: preaching by reasoning

Doc2000, there are two types of Prophets, one: who are given a new book (Law/Sharia) like Moses (AS), Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa(SA) and others. Second: who are there to revive the old law and call people back to God, like Hazrat Daud/David (AS) among many others, some of whom have been mentioned in Holy Quran. Both receive revelations from Allah.

First kind have stopped after Hazrat Muhammad (SA) i.e. there will be no new book/laws/sharia, that has been perfected in form of Holy Quran and with advent of our Holy Prophet (SA). The door to second category is still open. That is the reason why Holy Prophet (SA) said that Ulema of his(SA) Umah will be LIKE prophets of bani Israel (thanks gupguppy). The door to revelation is still open, it will never be closed, the guidance will always be provided by Allah. To believe that revelations and prophets would not come to Muslims while they were available to people before us, will be to believe that we are accursed.

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Atlantis..You are making out as if i'm making an argument that islam should be followed blindly..please read my threads properly b4 making an argument..I can repeat that i have evidence for myself to believe in Gods teachings ( that is based on enough evidence for me, not plain blind faith) and b'cos of this strong belief i am able to follow other things which have been commanded by God which i may not understand at this stage.. so when u say that God has ways of proving himself other than blind faith..U are just confirming my belief..However if u dont understand something, does'nt mean it is wrong.
I have a couple of questions for both u & Trooper which would be appreciated if answered ..First of all, Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) in his last sermon said that ( & not said by any other prophet b4 him) " Today, i have completed & perfected your religion for you....." It would be interesting to have ur views on this .
The other question is, i feel that both of u (esp. Atlantis) want a revamp of Islam..could u tell me what u would like changed in Islam that is'nt already there..

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Re: preaching by reasoning

Prophet mat have said that - so what? that doesn’t give anyone the right to limit God’s ability (or for that matter man’s ability) to change their minds and think of an improvement or two. Such as (and this answers your 2nd ? also):

  • making monogamy (or polygamy:D) both ways
  • having given a thinking brain to human beings, to not to want to punish them for using it - even if it means someone feels it necessary to leave some ritual out or even the faith and perhaps they want to come back
  • recognizing and updating the religion and its practice with some contemporary realities such as:
  • democratic notions and governance
  • coexistence with other religions
  • abhorrence of violence

these are IMO very important for your religion to survive and be called a way of life.

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Atlantis.. when u responded to my initial thread, i thought that we were going to have an interesting & intelligent argument..throughout my threads u have asked me questions & i have i feel responded to u in a logical manner and have given u answers based on religous backgrounds, so my beliefs are not based on "blindfaith" as u mentioned earlier..However, all your answers have been based on personal opinion..I would rather call these "blinds opinions"( analogy to blind faith!!)..on what basis do you have these opinions? do u have any logical reasons for your "opinions"?. Having said that, you have every right to them, but if u want to have a discussion about them, u need sound evidence to back them up ( a lot of ur previous questions seem to have advocated evidence base, so i am repeating what u have said earlier but your answers themselves are unplausible & without substance as they are just plain opinions & ideas)..If u want to discuss them from a scientific, historical or humanitarian perspective , then please do ( i'd be more than happy to do so), i feel that my understanding of Islam will be able to answer all of them.
Next point..everything that needs to be successful requires rules, order, discipline, structure, boundaries & a leader..I dont know which country u live in, but look around u & look at all things that are successful. Be it a team, department, organisation,, instuition, state, country etc...all need these characteristics..if any Tom, Dick or Harry came along and came up with their own theory or law w/o any plausible explanation for them, there would be chaos. Just imagine if i said that beastiality should be allowed b'cos the animals might be enjoying it or that being a paedophile was fine provided the child gives consent..Just imagine if that was the rule of the jungle and everyone came up with their own ideas ( and i tell u,some human mind/brains would advocate such things)..Islam gives us that structure..and u have to read & understand Islam to be able to follow it properly. Thats why God has given us a brain & made us his best beings..but at the end of the day we have to make a decision, that is, freewill to decide.Then it is up to God to decide what to do with us.

Nxt point, well it astounds me regarding the changes u have mentioned that need to be implemented to improve Islam b'cos the points u have made are already suscribed by Islam..You have just proved that your knowledge of islam is not only limited but based either on heresay or what the media ( and many extreme muslims) portray Islam to be or even on reading the Quran piecemeal.. Have u read the Quran and attempted to understand it ( please be honest)? If u had then u would as astounded as me to ur comments.

I'm a doctor by profession & for me to believe something requires some sort of evidence (Islam has enough evidence for me to understand most things in islam but not to dismiss things that i dont). If someone came up to me & said that the cause of diabetes was due to watching too much cricket, as silly as it may sound, i would ask the person to give me some form of evidence for me to entertain this statement or idea.

Having said that i would like to mention that it is not my intention to antagonise u in any way.

I feel that if u want to continue this discussion, u need to give me some "evidence" to ur argument and not plain "blind opinions" otherwise we'll end up going round & round in circles and just be wasting each others time.

Game 34 - Bangladesh vs South Africa, April 7th 2007
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Re: preaching by reasoning

Trooper, U have mentioned that their are 2 types of prophets..I have no knowlegde of this so i can’t argue to the contrary..i may have to take ur word for it or do some research myself..However, i do have a little problem regarding this thread b’cos u seem to have contradicted yourself..
On the one hand u have said that the second type just revive an old religion ( although they are given no book) and attempt to bring the people back to God.
But then u have mentioned that they both receive “revelations”.
As far as i know a revelation means to reveal something that was not known b4 or something that is a secret that is made known…some thing that all prophets did..do u catch my drift?..i’m really struggling therefore as to what is the difference b/w the 2 ( apart from one getting a book and not the other but both still introducing new things..acording to ur thread!!).
Do mean that the 2nd type will/may come, who wont have another book but still have revelations..:konfused: .

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Re: preaching by reasoning

doc you asked me what hanges I’d suggest and listed some. Where’s the question of proving or not proving any of that?

And your claims about my suggestions being already part of islam flies against the face of obvious common knowledge.