Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
dead cannot help you..if you think they can give you children or wealth or power than you are the same as the hindus who think rocks can help them...its shirk...rely on allah alone
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Dead people don't have powers, but I think some people go and ask for God's blessings and ask for their prayers be heard, by the REFERENCE of that pious person. So the prayers are not to that dead person. It is to God alone.
Not everyone agrees to this concept. For those who don't believe in something, that thing is the most ridiculous and stupid thing.** Those who think this is stupid should realize that atheists consider them even sillier and stupider.**
So it is not surprising that they make fun of those who believe in it.
Those who consider others(religious) miserable and stupid in front of atheists must realize that 'others' includes whoever believe in God.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Those who consider others(religious) miserable and stupid in front of atheists must realize that 'others' includes whoever believe in God.
Of course. That is the point. Everyone has their own logic of seeing things.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Salaam to dead people clearly means that they need our wishes and duas. If they need us then they are as needy as we are.
What about durood and salaam on the prophet himself? Does it mean that he is also needy of our duas and salaam?
And if you think that this does not apply on prophets because they have different status then this logic is proven FAULTY.
If our salaam to dead people means they are 'needy' then what about our prayers to God? Is He needy of them too?
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
***In this material world, Allah would never fulfil our desires or needs directly, but it is always going to be through an intermediary.
Brother Saleem, can you plz give some reference of Hadith or Quran that implies this(bolded)?
Well, how do you get your paycheck? Does Allah hand it over to you?
:p
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Don't believe in such things at all! Pray only directly to Allah
If we don't need the prophet then why did Allah need the prophet? Why couldn't Allah come out and directly ask people to obey Him?
Why does Allah need angels to do stuff when He can do it right away by Himself (kun fayakun)?
If praying through waseela is na-jaiz then why is Prophet called SHAFI?
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Of course. That is the point. Everyone has their own logic of seeing things.
but you have funny logic.
Lets disregard whether or not its allowed to Praying on dargah for a while but how you are trying to convince poeple that since atheists consider us stupid so we should should accept praying on dargah as authentic. Dont you believe in authenticity of religious matters? what a yardstick you have to conclude the issue...
Atheists dont distinguesh between believer of the God and superstitious believer, so next time you can give us similar argument to convince for superstitious belief.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
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Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Well, how do you get your paycheck? Does Allah hand it over to you? :p
ok, does it really worth discussing then?
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
but you have funny logic. Lets disregard whether or not its allowed to Praying on dargah for a while but you are trying to convince poeple that since atheists consider us stupid so we should should accept praying on dargah as authentic. Dont you believe in authenticity of religious matters? what a yardstick you have to conclude the issue...
Atheists dont distinguesh between believer of the God and superstitious believer, so next time you can give us similar argument to convince for superstitious belief.
oh bhai, where did I say everyone should accept it as authentic? I am just saying that we should not call it 'stupid' or 'silly' or mock those people.
That's it.
Obviously, people disagree with it, and they can argue against it.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
ok, does it really worth discussing then?
Point was that waseela is everywhere. Allah says He is the one who provides us 'rizq', but actually He does not do it directly but through some waseela.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Point was that waseela is everywhere.
great thinker! try to distinguesh between waseela and interdependance...
if i depend upon banker for paycheck so the banker one way or onther depends upon me... this is not waseela...
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
That is one nice post, Saleem. Especially liked the bold parts.
I wonder if people realize that this namaaz we are performing was brought to us through waseela of prophet.
And then they want to take prophet out of the way.
Well, I appreciate your ignorance of Islam and Islamic teaching. But as you wrote that … agar nahi pata tou chup rahna chahiyea … you should do that, because your comments could easily take you to fire.
If you are so much about asking direct from Allah … than why you do not ask directly from Allah a book of guidance?
Why you are quoting Quran as book of Allah*, Quran that Allah did not sent to you*, but it is word of prophet (SAW) that this book is from Allah?
Have you got any guarantee that Quran is word of Allah … other than belief that Prophet (SAW) was prophet of Allah and that Allah used Prophet (SAW) as Waseela for us to get guidance from Allah in form of Quran and other practices that Allah wants? … I do not think that you were even born when Prophet (SAW) was in this world, so you cannot even say that this book (Quran) was sent to Muslims by Allah using Prophet (SAW) as waseela, as that knowledge is also through waseela of peoples who were between us and Prophet (SAW).
So ... if you do not believe on Waseela, then you should leave Islam … the religion that Allah sent through Prophet (SAW) and follow whatever ‘religion’ you get directly from Alalh … (hint: be atheist if you do not get direct guidance from Allah … as that is what you should be with your belief).
I do not think you ever read Quran or you have knowledge of Islam … to say that Prophets are not born prophets, and that Prophet (SAW) was became Muslim when Allah choose him and send Jabrael (AS) to him in cave ‘hira’. … but then, I should not argue with you because I am pretty sure that since you do not believe on Waseela, how can you believe on Quran anyhow as that book came to Muslims (only Muslims) through Waseela of Prophet (SAW).
Note: For Muslims… we should know that prophets are born prophets and are not chosen by Allah from pious of the time to be prophet. Actually, as far as Prophet (SAW) is concerned, his (SAW) expected arrival to this world as prophet was even mentioned in all past books. Allah even named him in earlier scriptures from Allah. The age prophet (AS) declare their prophet-hood is nothing to do with them being prophet before that age or not, as they are always prophet. For instance, from Quran we know that Musa (AS) and ISA (AS) were prophets at birth, though we also know that both declared their prophet-hood at much later age. Allah mentioned in Quran that he sent prophets in every nation … not that he choose a prophet in every nation.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
great thinker! try to distinguesh between waseela and interdependance... if i depend upon banckres for paycheck so the banker one way or onther depends upon me... this is not waseela...
Since you mentioned interdependence in this religious discussion, I would like to know its Arabic equivalent used anywhere in Islam.
Your finance department giving you the paycheck is your waseela for 'rizq'. That is the only definition of this word.
The prophet was a waseela to bring religion to Arabs. Angels are waseela to bring death, to bring rizq, to convey Allah's message, etc.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Since you mentioned interdependence in this religious discussion, I would like to know its Arabic equivalent used anywhere in Islam.
that is funny question, i dont want to answer.
[QUOTE]
Your finance department giving you the paycheck is your waseela for 'rizq'. That is the only definition of this word.
[/QUOTE]
what if people dont work for that company hence making it unable to get business, from where then that finance department of that company would get money to give paychecks?
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
that is funny question, i dont want to answer.
Then please don't bring irrelevant stuff here. If 'Interdependence' nullifies waseela then it should be mentioned somewhere.
Otherwise it is just a concept which has nothing to do with Islam.
[quote]
what if people dont work for that company hence making it unable to get business, from where then that finance department of that company would get money to give paychecks?
[/quote]
Well in that case that company will get BROKE. :p
Then you will look for another job, and your waseela for rizq now will be different.
It's a simple concept. Why is it so hard to grasp?
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
Then please don't bring irrelevant stuff here. If 'Interdependence' nullifies waseela then it should be mentioned somewhere. Otherwise it is just a concept which has nothing to do with Islam.
You should rather bring authentic reference from Quran and Hadith allowing waseela.
[QUOTE]
Well in that case that company will get BROKE. :p
Then you will look for another job, and your waseela for rizq now will be different.
It's a simple concept. Why is it so hard to grasp?
[/QUOTE]
do you have gauranty that same thing cannot happen to other company?
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
You should rather bring authentic reference from Quran and Hadith allowing waseela.
It has been a long time since I stopped doing it. Not because I can't, but because I don't have that much luxury of time anymore.
This is why I rather gave an everyday example.
[QUOTE]
do you have gauranty that same thing cannot happen to other company?
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
About guarantees, well, my answer will not surprise you. NO, I don't have any guarantee. If that one doesn't work out either then go to another company, or try doing your own business. In any case, your waseela will now be different, again.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
I think things are getting mixed up. Allah is 'musab-babul-asbab'. Yes, He raised prophets/messengers among the people to deliver His message and there is no doubt that the knowledge of 'deen' has reached us though His prophets but His prophets never taught us to pray to anyone other than Allah. If prophets are waseela, why didn't people pray to them instead of directly praying to Allah. The simple answer is that prophets / messengers despite being close to Allah have no powers of their own. In their lives, all they could do was to pray to Allah and then it was up to Allah to accept or not accept their plea.
I think, if we take this waseela thing too far, one could justify praying to idols as hindus do despite the fact that they believe in one 'parmeshwar' or Christians who pray to Jesus and talk of bringing Jesus (as) in their lives. So guys please watch out the thin red line.
Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines
There is no Waseela in Islam.stop your shirk...dead people are dead..they cannot help you..if you ask dead people to help you are the same as a hindu who asks rocks to help...the sahabas used to visit the grave of Prophet SAW to give salaam not to ask him for anything. Why can't you people do anything without worshiping dead people? There is no proof of Waseela in Islam and the sahabas never did it. Stop being mushriks otherwise there is no difference between you and the kufar of mecca who used to worship idols who they used as waseela in front of allah..read the quran..that is the excuse they used and you are using the same excuse..