Praying on dargahs & shrines

[Sa1eem]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

I know there is plenty of misunderstanding regarding the subject. So, please read me carefully and please do not hesitate to question if there is anything confusing, thanks.

One should be clear regarding three things.

1: In Islam, death means death of nafs and not death of Ruh. Once a person dies, his ‘Ruh’ enters spiritual world free from many material restrictions.

2: Abilities and power in anyone (or anything) is not their own but are given by Allah. That ability and power could be to a person living in this material world (Alive) or living in spiritual world (dead). It is up to Allah what ability and power Allah gives to whom.

3: In this material world, Allah would never fulfil our desires or needs directly, but it is always going to be through an intermediary.

Once we know and understand above facts: When we ask someone (alive or dead), we ask with belief that Allah may have given the person ability or power to fulfil what we are asking … and that person would be willing to help. If Allah has not given the person ability or power to fulfil what we are asking … or the person is not willing to help … than that person would not fulfil what we asked … no problem. Anyhow, asking and ‘act of asking’ is ‘not Shrik nor it is undesirable’ because one asked with neyat and belief that Allah may have given the person (alive or dead) ability or power to fulfil what one is asking.

Actually, asking someone who died shows that one believes on life after death and also believes that Allah can grant power or abilities to whoever Allah wills (living or one passed away). Those who do not believe that dead can also fulfil what one ask them do not believe that Allah can give power and ability to whoever Allah wills. Some also do not believe that there is life after death. Both these believes are un-Islamic and could take a person to hell.

Note: Visiting Dargah and asking from dead for dua is exclusively Islamic act … as Shaitan has made all past religions forgo this act because Shaitan do not want people to visit graves and ask for dua from those who passed away … rather, Shaitan do not want people to believe that there is life after death, Ruh do not die, and that Allah can bestow power and abilities to whoever he likes, living or those who passed away.

Hadith: There is hadith that when visiting graveyards one should send Salaam to Ahlan-e-Qaboor and that the dead reply to the Salaam. Now it is obvious that reply of Salaam is Wa`alaikum Assalaam and that is dua … shows that dead can give dua (if they can send Salaam on people sending them Salaam, then one should not doubt that dead can give any dua they like).

[ajazali]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

^ plz provide authentic references and examples for point 2 and 3 ???

[muqawwee123]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@ajazali

its not answer to my question.... And visitors of Iqbal's tomb dont visit for the same purpose as visitors of data darbar do

reverence and respect are two similarities between the visitors of Data darbar and Iqbal's tomb. Besides that I also referred to poetry of Shah Latif ( edited post for missing words). The equation of Shah Latif and Sindh is not a hidden fact. People who visit his tomb on regular basis don't know much about his all works.

In most of the cases, its enough for people to revere these personalities and visit their tombs that these persons were behind the portraying of soft image of Islam which attracted forefathers of majority of Muslims living in subcontinent to Islam.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@Sa1eem

3: In this material world, Allah would never fulfil our desires or needs directly, but it is always going to be through an intermediary.

Then what was the need for revealing verses like 'Iyyaka Na'abud wa iyyaka nasta'een - You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything' and “Nahnu aqrabu ilaihi min hablil wareed- We are closer to them (human) than their jugular vein'?

[ajazali]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@muqawwee123

reverence and respect are two similarities between the visitors of Data darbar and Iqbal's tomb. Besides that I also referred to poetry of Shah Latif ( edited post for missing words). The equation of Shah Latif and Sindh is not a hidden fact. People who visit his tomb on regular basis don't know much about his all works.

In most of the cases, its enough for people to revere these personalities and visit their tombs that these persons were behind the portraying of soft image of Islam which attracted forefathers of majority of Muslims living in subcontinent to Islam.

these people dont know the preachings but keep on visiting just because their forefather has been visiting such places. They are told to respect these personalities as they heard their forefather telling miracles/mojzaat of these people. so there is no ideological reason for following these people. My point is follow the preachings of persoanlities that are in accord with Islam, dont urge on following the personalities itself. Following merely a personlity means nothing, neither ideologically nor islamically.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@ajazali

these people dont know the preachings but keep on visiting just because their forefather has been visiting such places. They are told to respect these personalities as they heard their forefather telling miracles/mojzaat of these people. so there is no ideological reason for following these people. My point is follow the preachings of persoanlities that are in accord with Islam, dont urge on following the personalities itself. Following merely a personlity means nothing, neither ideologically nor islamically.

This may be true for some visitors but not for all. These personalities get respect and reverence for their ideologies and service they did for the religion. Everyone tries to know about the ideology of the personality he follows / revere according to his / her acumen. The problem is we tend to label every person visiting shrines as Jahil / Zaeef ul aitqaad without knowing their perception. Many people say these visitors consider these personalities as one who are (qadir o matlaq) authority for each and everything. In reality, its not 100% true.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@muqawwee123

Then what was the need for revealing verses like 'Iyyaka Na'abud wa iyyaka nasta'een - You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything' and “Nahnu aqrabu ilaihi min hablil wareed- We are closer to them (human) than their jugular vein'?

What is mentioned in Ayah is requirement of belief (Emaan).

If one gets anything from whomever and still believes that actual source is Allah and it is due to will of Allah what one gets, than even when one is asking from intermediary, one is looking towards Allah for the fulfilment.

In ayah ‘it is you we ask for help’ does not mean that we do not look for intermediary, as when Allah would help, it would be always through intermediary. So, while one could ask Allah for help, one should also ask and look for people considering them as intermediary and hoping that one would find right intermediary through whom Allah would give help.

For instance, if one wants guidance one look in Quran, but Quran did not come directly from Allah, but Prophet (SAW) is intermediary through whom we get guidance from Allah. We cannot say that we ask Allah for guidance and hope that guidance would come directly from Allah. Fact is that, once we know right intermediary. In case of guidance it is Prophet (SAW) who we ask for help towards guidance or look at what prophet (SAW) told Muslims … considering Prophet (SAW) as intermediary between us and Allah.

Even when Allah decided to give us book (Quran), Allah did not come to us individually and directly with book (Quran), rather Prophet (SAW) became intermediary. Even when Allah decided to send Wahi to Prophet (SAW), he did not send ‘wahi’ directly, but Jabrael (AS) was intermediary between Allah and Prophet (SAW). It shows that even when we can ask Allah directly, whatever Allah would give us would be indirectly (through intermediary) … thus, it is not only allowed but preferred that a person look for intermediary for desires and needs … with requirement that regardless of where we get our desire or needs we should always believe that source is Allah or we got what we wanted because Allah made that to happen.

Actually, if you will read hadith you will find that when prophet (SAW) wanted answer to question, many time Prophet (SAW) use to wait for Jabreel (AS) rather asking Allah directly, and it was through Jabreel (AS) that he use to get answers.

If you read Quran you will find that even Allah has mentioned at many places that Allah uses one group of people (as intermediary) to help others.

Anyone who says that he would ask Allah directly for help and do not believe on intermediary, should stop reading Quran and ask Allah for guidance directly … as Quran is what Muslims got through intermediaries [Prophet (SAW) was intermediary who got Quran through another intermediary Jabreel (AS)]. If such person does not believe that Allah would send him Quran directly, then he should stop making such comments, as such believes that to ask from Allah directly and reject role of intermediaries, is fitna of belief from Shaitan.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@Sa1eem

What is mentioned in Ayah is requirement of belief (Emaan).

If one gets anything from whomever and still believes that actual source is Allah and it is due to will of Allah what one gets, than even when one is asking from intermediary, one is looking towards Allah for the fulfilment.

In ayah ‘it is you we ask for help’ does not mean that we do not look for intermediary, as when Allah would help, it would be always through intermediary. So, while one could ask Allah for help, one should also ask and look for people considering them as intermediary and hoping that one would find right intermediary through whom Allah would give help.

For instance, if one wants guidance one look in Quran, but Quran did not come directly from Allah, but Prophet (SAW) is intermediary through whom we get guidance from Allah. We cannot say that we ask Allah for guidance and hope that guidance would come directly from Allah. Fact is that, once we know right intermediary. In case of guidance it is Prophet (SAW) who we ask for help towards guidance or look at what prophet (SAW) told Muslims … considering Prophet (SAW) as intermediary between us and Allah.

Even when Allah decided to give us book (Quran), Allah did not come to us individually and directly with book (Quran), rather Prophet (SAW) became intermediary. Even when Allah decided to send Wahi to Prophet (SAW), he did not send ‘wahi’ directly, but Jabrael (AS) was intermediary between Allah and Prophet (SAW). It shows that even when we can ask Allah directly, whatever Allah would give us would be indirectly (through intermediary) … thus, it is not only allowed but preferred that a person look for intermediary for desires and needs … with requirement that regardless of where we get our desire or needs we should always believe that source is Allah or we got what we wanted because Allah made that to happen.

Actually, if you will read hadith you will find that when prophet (SAW) wanted answer to question, many time Prophet (SAW) use to wait for Jabreel (AS) rather asking Allah directly, and it was through Jabreel (AS) that he use to get answers.

If you read Quran you will find that even Allah has mentioned at many places that Allah uses one group of people (as intermediary) to give to others.

Thanks for the explanation.

what is preferred way of asking something. directly from Allah or through an intermediary. say I need barkat in rizq, should I myself ask from Allah or go to a shrine and ask through the sahib e mazaar?

[Sa1eem]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@muqawwee123

Thanks for the explanation.

what is preferred way of asking something. directly from Allah or through an intermediary. say I need barkat in rizq, should I myself ask from Allah or go to a shrine and ask through the sahib e mazaar?

There is belief in Islam that dua for others has better chance of getting accepted than if one do dua for oneself. So, asking others for dua is preferable way of getting dua accepted. It is also belief that people have different rank of closeness to Allah. Prophet (SAW) was most close to Allah and people like Abu-Jahal was not close at all, so dua by Prophet (SAW) has better chance of getting accepted by Allah than dua of Abu-Jahal.

Obviously, one can ask Allah directly too, but with belief that one would not get what one is asking directly from Allah, rather whatever would happen would happen through intermediary.

Sahib-e-mazzars are not Allah, so if you will ask from sahib-e-Mazar then they could only pray to Allah (if they want to), that is all.

Now, if Sahib-e-Mazar is closer to Allah in rank, than it is obvious that chance of their dua to get accepted is higher than if one would do dua oneself or ask people with lower ‘rank in closeness to Allah’ for dua.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@ajazali

^ plz provide authentic references and examples for point 2 and 3 ???

Have you read 2 and 3?
What proof do you want?

2: Abilities and power in anyone (or anything) is not their own but are given by Allah. That ability and power could be to a person living in this material world (Alive) or living in spiritual world (dead). It is up to Allah what ability and power Allah gives to whom.

I am not sure what you believe, but that is basic Islamic belief ... that all abilities and power in any person or things comes from Allah. … Unless one is not Muslim then one might believe that Shaitan or other Gods can also give people abilities and power … but as far as Islam is concerned, even what ability and power Shaitan have is given by Allah.

3: In this material world, Allah would never fulfil our desires or needs directly, but it is always going to be through an intermediary.

That is also basic Islamic belief that Allah would not come himself to fulfil a persons’ desires or needs, but all would happen through intermediaries. Anyhow, if you believe that you (or anyone) would ask from Allah and Allah would come to you in person to give what you want then that is different matter… who knows, you could be Musa (AS) or have Musa (AS) in mind, as from what I know, Musa (AS) was the only person who got 10 commandments directly from Allah.

[ajazali]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@Sa1eem

Have you read 2 and 3? What proof do you want?

2: Abilities and power in anyone (or anything) is not their own but are given by Allah. That ability and power could be to a person living in this material world (Alive) or living in spiritual world (dead). It is up to Allah what ability and power Allah gives to whom.

I am not sure what you believe, but that is basic Islamic belief ... that all abilities and power in any person or things comes from Allah. … Unless one is not Muslim then one might believe that Shaitan or other Gods can also give people abilities and power … but as far as Islam is concerned, even what ability and power Shaitan have is given by Allah.

3: In this material world, Allah would never fulfil our desires or needs directly, but it is always going to be through an intermediary.

That is also basic Islamic belief that Allah would not come himself to fulfil a persons’ desires or needs, but all would happen through intermediaries. Anyhow, if you believe that you (or anyone) would ask from Allah and Allah would come to you in person to give what you want then that is different matter… who knows, you could be Musa (AS) or have Musa (AS) in mind, as from what I know, Musa (AS) was the only person who got 10 commandments directly from Allah.

Brother Saleem, can you plz give some reference of Hadith or Quran that implies this(bolded)?

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

i personally dont have any problem with visiting shrines, one can go there and offer fateha (prayers) for the deceased and then pray directly from allah.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

Peace All,

This thread is more appropriate in religious forum. Concern modz/CM plz look into this (do neeful)

[ajazali]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

Thread moved to Religious forum.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

ajazali

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

Peace All,

@5amra

May be they are going there to ask from Allah with their waseela & waseela se maangna is jaiz.
If someone is not physically present that does not always mean he/she is dead. If we see then shaheed are dead too but actually they are not.
We don’t know the “neeyat” of those people who are visiting those dargahs & shrines, so we can’t really judge them.

5amra, waseela se maangna jaiz nahi. I disagree. In case if you wants me to be agree on that then plz provide source where waseela se maangna is said jaiz.

@ninja_hattori

Aren’t we supposed to say salam when we enter kabristan?

We are alive, we were told to say ‘salam’ but have we ever heard/read that saying ‘w/s’ made mandatory on deceased person? or at least told that we will hear ‘w/s’. Waise TLK bhai answered your question

@muqawwee123

LKK

so tell me why millions of Muslims are passionate to visit Gunbad e Khizra? If you go through Islamic literature and history, you will find that companions of the Prophet used to visit Roza e Rasool regularly. Read history of Karbala and you will find Hazrat Hussain going to the Roza e rasool before leaving Medina.

The point is reverence doesn’t die if a person dies.

Mere bhai, Roza-e-Rasool or kisi Khuda ke Banday ki dargah, shrines aik barabar nahi hy. Visit karny mein koi mumanat nahi hy, unke haq mein dua karny mein bhi koi mumanat nahi hy pr un ke waseela se mangna ghalat hy.

[aqeel123]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@TLK

Salaam to dead people clearly means that they need our wishes and duas. If they need us then they are as needy as we are. In that case we are better off asking from Allah than asking from them

Am sorry but do u actually think that sending darood and salam on Prophet s.a.w clearly means that he needs our wishes and Duas ? or is it for our betterness ?

I am not saying that the saints are like prophet s.a.w (na aozobillah), just challenging ur logic.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

Peace Saleem,

@Sa1eem

1: In Islam, death means death of nafs and not death of Ruh. Once a person dies, his ‘Ruh’ enters spiritual world free from many material restrictions.

Please explain what is ‘death of nafs’ and difference between ‘nafs’ anf ‘ruh’?

@Sa1eem

2: Abilities and power in anyone (or anything) is not their own but are given by Allah. That ability and power could be to a person living in this material world (Alive) or living in spiritual world (dead). It is up to Allah what ability and power Allah gives to whom.

How a common person like me knows whether this or that person is granted abilities and power or not?, of’coz by Almighty Allah

@Sa1eem

3: In this material world, Allah would never fulfil our desires or needs directly, but it is always going to be through an intermediary.

Where does Almighty Allah said that HE will never fulfil our desires or need directly but through an intermediary?

@Sa1eem

Once we know and understand above facts: When we ask someone (alive or dead), we ask with belief that Allah may have given the person ability or power to fulfil what we are asking … and that person would be willing to help. If Allah has not given the person ability or power to fulfil what we are asking … or the person is not willing to help … than that person would not fulfil what we asked … no problem. Anyhow, asking and ‘act of asking’ is ‘not Shrik nor it is undesirable’ because one asked with neyat and belief that Allah may have given the person (alive or dead) ability or power to fulfil what one is asking.

Doesn’t make any sense

@Sa1eem

Actually, asking someone who died shows that one believes on life after death and also believes that Allah can grant power or abilities to whoever Allah wills (living or one passed away). Those who do not believe that dead can also fulfil what one ask them do not believe that Allah can give power and ability to whoever Allah wills. Some also do not believe that there is life after death. Both these believes are un-Islamic and could take a person to hell.

Irrelevant post. Sounds like believing other than Almighty Allah

@Sa1eem

Note: Visiting Dargah and asking from dead for dua is exclusively Islamic act … as Shaitan has made all past religions forgo this act because Shaitan do not want people to visit graves and ask for dua from those who passed away … rather, Shaitan do not want people to believe that there is life after death, Ruh do not die, and that Allah can bestow power and abilities to whoever he likes, living or those who passed away.

Hadith: There is hadith that when visiting graveyards one should send Salaam to Ahlan-e-Qaboor and that the dead reply to the Salaam. Now it is obvious that reply of Salaam is Wa`alaikum Assalaam and that is dua … shows that dead can give dua (if they can send Salaam on people sending them Salaam, then one should not doubt that dead can give any dua they like).

Yeah right! Like the peoples in Pakistan go a place where they do mini hajj is purely Islamic

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@aqeel123

Am sorry but do u actually think that sending darood and salam on Prophet s.a.w clearly means that he needs our wishes and Duas ? or is it for our betterness ?

I am not saying that the saints are like prophet s.a.w (na aozobillah), just challenging ur logic.

Peace aqeel123,

edited. Are we talking about Prophet Muhammad ? No. then why you brought His PBUH memoir here just to prove your point or lets say challenging one’s logic.

[aqeel123]

Re: Praying on dargahs & shrines

@lethal_kamikaze

Peace aqeel123,

Irrelevant post and I found it very offensive. You should ashamed while posting such comments. Are we talking about Prophet Muhammad ? No. then why you brought His PBUH memoir here just to prove your point or lets say challenging one’s logic.

(edited) . If sending salam to someone means they r in need of prayers and wishes then clearly sahaba or us clearly didnt need to send salam on Prophet s.a.w and we shld also stop praying to ALLAH to be pleased with those who are already granteed Heavens because they r not in need of prayers and best wishes.

If u still havent got my point, then (edited) Sending salam on someone doesnt necessarily mean that reciever needs our prayers and wishes. However everytime you send salam on someone you benefit from it regardless of he needs our prayers or best wishes or not.

Peace upon you too.