Lets say punjab is divided and PMLn win from both central punjab and bahawalpur then you will say two provinces are deciding fate of whole Pakistan. This is democracy learn to deal with it.
that is an interesting point that you made. by the way i support division of punjab as it is so hard to manage it administratively, so lets take the power from lahore and spread it around punjab. lets make 3 or 4 provinces out of this punjab, if we can. i think it will help administratively but politically speaking, I am not so sure. like you said, what if PLMN again wins most of these smaller provinces as they will still have the best winning candidates especially in rural areas. No one wants PPP ticket anymore and PTI is only strong in pockets. so PMLN may still come into power
that is an interesting point that you made. by the way i support division of punjab as it is so hard to manage it administratively, so lets take the power from lahore and spread it around punjab. lets make 3 or 4 provinces out of this punjab, if we can. i think it will help administratively but politically speaking, I am not so sure. like you said, what if PLMN again wins most of these smaller provinces as they will still have the best winning candidates especially in rural areas. No one wants PPP ticket anymore and PTI is only strong in pockets. so PMLN may still come into power
Exactly.
I am all for splitting provinces for administrative purpose but anti federal statements cannot improve anything.
I think PLMn can easily keep all the units out of Punjab happy because they wont need to do corruption and their personal / family business would be doing good, using influence of legislation power. Like in US you can lobby if you have money or power.
What do you mean by fate of whole Pakistan? What is the use of 18th amendment then?
What changes to electoral system do you propose to stop punjab getting federal power?
Lets say punjab is divided and PMLn win from both central punjab and bahawalpur then you will say two provinces are deciding fate of whole Pakistan. This is democracy learn to deal with it.
Okay. You want to be patronising? Fine, let's do it that way!
18th Amendment hasn't changed Punjab centric* electoral *system, why do you keep bringing this up?
And for goodness sake, stop giving me this argument that PMLN's going to win for eternity anyway so let's not even bother having a debate on dangerous imbalances and structural flaws in the system. This argument is as pathetic as PMLN supporters saying: so what if rigging happened, it's not like PTI would've won anyway, so it's okay if there is rigging in democracy, and I'm not surprised to see the types of members endorsing your argument.
This is the kind of intellectual and moral rot I find so disturbing.
PS: Two provinces deciding the fate is still better than one!
What do you mean by fate of whole Pakistan? What is the use of 18th amendment then?
What changes to electoral system do you propose to stop punjab getting federal power?
Lets say punjab is divided and PMLn win from both central punjab and bahawalpur then you will say two provinces are deciding fate of whole Pakistan. This is democracy learn to deal with it.
Do a census!!!
There has be relatively equal way of distributing NA seats. No way you can have a system where combined NA seats other three provinces is less than Punjab's share.
Why should "Pakistanis" put up with a family/party for decades which solely gets elected by Punjabis, and even worse, by uneducated biradari obsessed rural population?
This is not democracy, and don't try to sell it as one!
Like it or not, dividing Punjab into two/three units will change the local political dynamics. Maybe not immediately, but change will come when resources and power are divided.
Okay. You want to be patronising? Fine, let's do it that way!
Dont know from where you get this. you are against punjab getting federation so I asked you what changes do you propose to stop Punjab.
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*18th Amendment hasn't changed Punjab centric electoral system, why do you keep bringing this up? *
And for goodness sake, stop giving me this argument that PMLN's going to win for eternity anyway so let's not even bother having a debate on dangerous imbalances and structural flaws in the system. This argument is as pathetic as PMLN supporters saying: so what if rigging happened, it's not like PTI would've won anyway, so it's okay if there is rigging in democracy, and I'm not surprised to see the types of members endorsing your argument.
This is the kind of intellectual and moral rot I find so disturbing.
PS: Two provinces deciding the fate is still better than one!
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Would you support splitting KPK and Sindh as well?
Dont from where you get this. you are against punjab getting federation so I asked you what changes do you propose to stop Punjab.
I find your 'this is democracy learn to deal with it' patronising. Germans voting for Nazis was also 'democracy'.
So let's no insult our intelligence by reducing democracy to mere electoral exercise.
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Would you support splitting KPK and Sindh as well?
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Of course, why not?
I support merger of FATA with KPK and separation of Hazara province. Karachi should also be a separate province.
India to this day is creating state after state with few years gap in between (one the the reasons why democracy works in India!!), and we in Pakistan are so backward and primitive with our territorial mentality.
**There has be relatively equal way of distributing NA seats. **No way you can have a system where combined NA seats other three provinces is less than Punjab's share.
Like what? on the basis of area alone instead of population?
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Why should "Pakistanis" put up with a family/party for decades which solely gets elected by Punjabis, and even worse, by uneducated biradari obsessed rural population?
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We shall see how much support PTI get from KPK after IK.
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This is not democracy, and don't try to sell it as one!
Like it or not, dividing Punjab into two/three units will change the local dynamics. Maybe not immediately, but change will come when resources and power are divided.
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One can say creating hazara province will also affect PTI.
I find your 'this is democracy learn to deal with it' patronising.
Education is the key. you dont focus on it so just keep calling people jahil and biradri system obsessed. Believe me you will get nothing with this approach even if Punjab is divided into 10 units. Even after several years when rural people will get education they will hate you because of this attitude let alone voting you. But I think there will be no PTI by then or it will split into several groups.
Like what? on the basis of area alone instead of population?
Population and area.
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We shall see how much support PTI get from KPK after IK.
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IK had been there for 20 years, but PTI only got support in KPK after it became a political force in 2011. Yes PTI is IK everywhere. What's your point?
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One can say creating hazara province will also affect PTI.
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At least I am being intellectually honest and sticking to an ideological integrity by supporting creation of new province even though it will not benefit the party I support.
But why are you supporting all the structural imbalance and democratic deficit when you apparently don't even support PMLN?
Education is the key. you dont focus on it so just keep calling people jahil and biradri system obsessed. Believe me you will get nothing with this approach even if Punjab is divided into 10 units. Even after several years when rural people will get education they will hate you because of this attitude let alone voting you. But I think there will be no PTI by then or it will split into several groups.
It very much feels like the lecture Muqqawwee gives you in regards to Karachi. Will you apply this logic and change your approach next time you discuss Karachi?
I have no problem naming shaming the evils. Be it parhi likhi urban jahalat of Karachi, or dehati jahalat of Punjab. It's the same of xenophobia and Stockholm syndrome.
These problems exist in Pakistan because they haven't been exposed and condemned enough!
Does Pakistani Senate have a lot of power? This is the only equalizing force. We are back in the same boat ala pre-1971 where Bengal could override West Pakistan in the national assembly. It was one of the reasons that caused the war (army would have to answer to bengali govt) and the senate was put in. I think that Pakistan really needs a US type system.
IK had been there for 20 years, but PTI only got support in KPK after it became a political force in 2011. Yes PTI is IK everywhere. What's your point?
]At least I am being intellectually honest and sticking to an ideological integrity by supporting creation of new province even though it will not benefit the party I support.
But why are you supporting all the structural imbalance and democratic deficit when you apparently don't even support PMLN?
I have already said that I have no issue with splitting provinces be it punjab or sindh. You say villages of Punjab are deciding fate of Pakistan. Because of this I would say give more autonomy to provinces. As you assume i am supporting PMLn actully by arguing like this, I can say people who cannot win in punjab say divide punjab.
It very much feels like the lecture Muqqawwee gives you in regards to Karachi. Will you apply this logic next time you discuss Karachi?
I have no problem naming shaming the evils. Be it parhi likhi urban jahalat of Karachi, or dehati jahalat of Punjab.
These problems exist in Pakistan because they haven't been exposed and condemned enough!
Yes, as long as Punjabis are not doing target killing. I have already said that i have no issue even with demand of separate land by people of karachi.
I have already said that I have no issue with splitting provinces be it punjab or sindh. You say villages of Punjab are deciding fate of Pakistan. Because of this I would say give more autonomy to provinces. As you assume i am supporting PMLn actully by arguing like this, I can people who cannot win in punjab say divide punjab.
Giving autonomy to provinces has no bearing on Punjab centric electoral system. These are two separate issues. Why aren't you getting this?
A party can sweep everything from Karachi to Khyber but will not be able to form government because you only need one party's hegemony in just one particular province to form 'majority' government.
Please don’t make up stuff. You and your kind are explicitly against karachi being a separate province. Separate land means that you are ok with letting karachi secede from pakistan?
Giving autonomy to provinces has no bearing on Punjab centric electoral system. These are two separate issues. Why aren't you getting this?
A party can sweep everything from Karachi to Khyber but will not be able to form government because you only need one party's hegemony in just one particular province to form 'majority' government.
How is that democratic?
then why do you think that Punjab centric electoral system is evil? because you cannot win there?
Provincial autonomy is all you need if you are not hungry of power which is supposed be related to foreign affairs and defence. SS has been visiting turkey and china even when PPP was in federal govt is example that there is no bar from federation to contact outside the country.
