Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
THIS is the problem exactly. Typical tactics of seeming like you’re doing something in office by distracting from the real problems at hand. Easy to make a fuss about possibly hanging a general, hard to get all households and businesses in Pakistan powered by reliable energy, that WE make and OWN.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
^ no problem at all, all who were part of it should be punished but you need to set a "depth" level to cut-off this process. in terms of algorithms, when we traverse a graph/tree we do it to a certain level/ children, we do not do that to unlimited number of children. and parliament is free to set that cut-off limit, they've got all the mandate needed, they can pass any bill with their own votes.
and may be to your surprise, 18th amendment has already taken back the indemnity offered to mush's first LFO, they can safely start from his last emergency, and in that case, all those who you named above (N$, Kuch-kiya-nahi, CJ, IK) they will be saved nicely.
yeah i know, that's pretty much crooked, but welcome to democracy. when this democracy can vote a non-islamic law into enforcement, against sharia, sitting in a hall printed with 99 names of ALLAH SWT on its roof, following a constitution which says there will be no law against quran-o-sunnat and we happily accept that, then this democracy can do that as well, save some, and screw some.
that's democracy for you, fair and square (by the way before you start thinking i'm a military lover, let me tell you i'm not against democracy, i'm against this sort of democracy, where votes are counted, not weighted)
Last emergency was not martial law as it all depends on how one looks at it.
If iftikhar appointment as SC judge and then CJ of SC was legal under 1999 LFO, then appointment of Dogar as CJ of SC was legal too under LFO of 2007. Thus judgment of Supreme Court under Dogar that emergency was legal, stands.
Thus, if hathdharmi of thug Iftikhar and thug Nawaz means, twisting laws and using state power to punish those they do not like get fulfilled, then one should not cry if someone using powers they have, twist hands of both these thugs and hang them.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
I wrote this before and I am writing again:
If Pakistani politicians do not want martial law then they have to stop loot and plunder … they have to stop their own corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, misconduct, incompetency and disrespect of laws. They should set high moral values for themselves, and it is these things that would give them respect and support, that would stop military to kick their dirty Ass because after that their dirty Ass would become clean.
But then, Pakistani corrupts for whom politics is business, and they spend 100s of million to contest election (rather bribe voters and election commission to get elected), would not like to leave their looting, plundering and raping Pakistan. These parasite thugs want to keep doing what they do, that is, corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, misconduct, incompetency, disrespect of law, taking protocols considering themselves above law … without fear of armed forces kicking their dirty Ass, and that is the reason they talk about high treason and all this bull-Shiiit … when reality is that, it is they who are traitors of Pakistan and have destroyed Pakistan every time they got into power.
Worse is their army of chailay chamchay lingering in media and various forums, who rub their nose on feet of these corrupt thugs so that they can get some benefits and bones from them and then move around defending these criminal thugs everywhere, with lies, propaganda and wrong claims.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
The 60 million dollar question: how will the army react? - thenews.com.pk
DUBAI/ISLAMABAD: The 60 million dollar question being asked in Pakistan and abroad after the momentous Musharraf treason trial decision by PM Nawaz Sharif is how the armed forces will react.
There were no clear-cut answers or official response from the spokespersons and the ISPR on this question but after talking to a number of in service and retired top officers, The News has been able to gather some idea of what thinking could be going going on, although it is too early to expect a fully considered and articulated response. According to highly placed sources it can be disclosed that an ill-advised or an over-confident retired General Pervez Musharraf was quietly offered a safe exit by top army generals, with a tacit nod of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, to avoid the loaded freight train that has now arrived at his Chak Shahzad farmhouse in shape of the Article 6 treason case. While none of the two sides would confirm it, General Kayani and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif have been discussing the civil-military relations in a larger context in their long private sessions in recent weeks and General Musharraf was one of these subjects.
“Both the sides are annoyed that an arrogant and hotheaded Musharraf thinks that he can avoid his trial and punishment by involving other top generals and the institution of the Army itself. He refused to take the offer of a safe exit and said he would undergo the trial,” according to these sources. This has put him in a grave danger as he has lost a lot of support in the top echelons of the Army because of his attitude but still the general reaction is to wait and see how things proceed and whether in this whole process the politicians try to humiliate the institution of the armed forces as a whole instead of focusing on the person of Musharraf alone. While his lawyer, an equally arrogant Ahmad Raza Kasuri insisted throughout the evening on almost all TV channels that more than 500 persons, including generals, judges and politicians, will have to be tried along with Musharraf, opening up a full blown Pandora’s Box, many other senior lawyers including Aitzaz Ahsan, Athar Minnallah, Justice Wajihuddin, Babar Sattar and others do not agree and say it all depends on how the government would like to proceed.But a senior retired general who was an important figure in the Musharraf setup for years said the reaction, if any, would mostly be confined to the senior cadres of the Army. This general said: “An effort would be made to convince the government and the media to avoid humiliation and character assassination of the Army. If the legal process is slow and sluggish and no one appears to be in a hurry to push Musharraf to the slaughter house, the Army’s reaction would be muted.”
Another former general said if concerns in Pindi increased, external pressures would also be orchestrated in line with these concerns thus placing the political leadership under some pressure to go slow and be fair. But he did not foresee any wild or rash reaction. The general reaction in the top Army circles is that the boys will first figure out how many possible casualties of the Musharraf trial will emerge. “Before the Army formulates its strategy and response, they want to know whether Nawaz Sharif wants to try Musharraf only or is also mulling over including other generals. Army would only respond after getting ‘concrete material’ in black and white from the government,” knowledgeable sources told Usman Manzoor in Islamabad.
These Pindi sources said, “There were two options before the government; either to initiate the high treason case or not; and now that they have decided to initiate it, we are looking for concrete material from the government so that we can formulate our response”.The sources said that Army’s reaction would come once the federal government released the ‘material’ in its possession. A key general of Musharraf’s prime time, however said in Dubai: “You may like to consider another angle. Although, taking away of PIA, CAA, FSF, MET etc from the Ministry of Defence and placing them under the PM is not directly related to the Musharraf trial, yet it may be seen as an effort to start trimming the Ministry of Defence. “I hope you have noted the haste involved in the decision taken on a Sunday. Interestingly Nargis Sethi was also asked to take over as Secretary of Defence on a closed holiday. Such knee jerk reactions smack of mala fide.” The general pointed out the implications of these decisions as most of the air bases are jointly used by PAF and Army aviation. Things will stay calm if the politicians play with a straight bat and not try to hit four and sixes on no balls, he said.
Top ranking lawyers have their own interpretations and analysis of the situation and how the Army may react in this situation.PPP Senator Aitzaz Ahsan repeatedly said on TV that while the trial would be proceeding, his main opponent, Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry would have retired and a new Chief Justice would have taken over. Another lawyer said the rancour and personal animosity, if any, would disappear when CJ Chaudhry would retire and the trial if conducted in a purely judicial and routine manner, which might not generate any impression that the institution of the Army was being targeted because of personal or political reasons, would help sooth nerves inside the institution. Many lawyers and even retired generals feel that the conduct of General (R) Pervez Musharraf himself will also determine how the trial goes and how the Army reacts.Musharraf will try to drag every person who was working under his command on November 3, 2007 by showing them as collaborators in the act. He believes if all his immediate subordinates are dragged in politicians will be scared and leave him alone.
But the unanimous support of the Parliament to start his trial on Monday did not indicate that this would happen.This may not happen also because on July 31, 2009 the Supreme Court held Musharraf solely responsible for the acts of November 3, 2007. It will now be for Musharraf to prove that others were equally responsible and that might be an impossible legal task. Musharraf is perhaps banking upon the operative part of the Proclamation of emergency which reads, ‘AND WHEREAS the situation has been reviewed in meetings with the prime minister, governors of all the four provinces, and with Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Chiefs of the Armed Forces, Vice-Chief of Army Staff and Corps Commanders of the Pakistan Army; NOW, THEREFORE, in pursuance of the deliberations and decisions of the said meetings, I, General Pervez Musharraf, Chief of the Army Staff, proclaim Emergency throughout Pakistan.’ He is perhaps turning a blind eye to the judgment of Supreme Court, which rejected this argument and held him solely responsible for abrogating the Constitution. After all, the buck stopped at his door.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
Worse is their army of chailay chamchay lingering in media and various forums, who rub their nose on feet of these corrupt thugs so that they can get some benefits and bones from them and then move around defending these criminal thugs everywhere, with lies, propaganda and wrong claims.
Are you serious? Plenty of politicians have spent plenty of time in jails for their crimes. Now, please tell us how many generals have spent time in jail, if any, for corruption, mismanagement, etc.? Just b/c you're a general does mean you're above the law.
Btw, I have yet to hear convincing argument from you as to why Mushy should not face justice for his crimes?
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
I wrote this before and I am writing again:
If Pakistani politicians do not want martial law then they have to stop loot and plunder … they have to stop their own corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, misconduct, incompetency and disrespect of laws. ......
I have asked you several times before, and I as you again....
What did military do to those involved in "corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, misconduct, incompetency and disrespect of laws..."? Gathered them into a platforms like IJI and PML(Q)? Issued NROs?
If Mush could get NS punished in 'Airplane Hijacking" case, he could surely find a lot of material against him and his friends regarding "corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, misconduct, incompetency and disrespect of laws". Unfortunately, the generals and brigadiers were busy confirming post-retirement lucrative jobs.
I would be supporting you blindly if Mush did put corrupt politicians on open trials, have them convicted and punished. I would even support his perpetual rule if he did to corrupt officials what Chinese authorities do to theirs'.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
Have listened to Ahmed Raza Qasoori a few times. Musharraf should seriously consider someone sensible to represent him in courts.
His only answer to all questions is the 'aiders and abettors' clause. Looks desperate.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
musharraf himself can do a much better job than kasuri ..
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
their first course of action would be to give bluffs like that. probably kasuri is thinking daranay dhamkanay say kaam chal jaye to behtar hay. real game will start when govt will set the tone of this case in court by approving a cut-off time to consider and making all parties agree to it. then this "aiders and abettors" argument will not work, he will have to come up with something better
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
Don't underestimate this kasuri guy. He knows constitution inside out. He was one of those who drafted it. I am sure he must have something in his sleeve if and when the trial starts.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
What if an army general takes over and decides to take the direction you are claiming politicians can do using constitution as power. One man power can do it much more easily then a grand assembly and senate.
Let the right things be done, I don’t believe that all govt machinery will be utilized in prosecuting Musharraf, the only concern I have is that he may in the end come up with another “NRO” “in the greater good of the nation”.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
Don't underestimate this kasuri guy. He knows constitution inside out. He was one of those who drafted it. I am sure he must have something in his sleeve if and when the trial starts.
I think it was another guy, Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri (father of Khurshid Kasuri) who was actively involved in drafting of the constitution. Ahmed Raza Kasuri had differences with Bhutto at that time and blamed Bhutto for murder of his father too.
The guy with the $4.6 million watch has time for running court cases? Of course he does. He has just finished combing his hair.
Douche.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
Have listened to Ahmed Raza Qasoori a few times. Musharraf should seriously consider someone sensible to represent him in courts.
His only answer to all questions is the 'aiders and abettors' clause. Looks desperate.
Where is that Pirzada guy? Seems like he only comes out when they need him to draft PCOs. Maybe Mushy can hire him?
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
an interesting read on this subject
Nawaz Sharif starts ‘the mother of all wars’; Ya Habibi needed
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
In history (or even in current times) there'd been worst cases of political divisions in countries like UK, USA, France and along with many other European countries who now make in the top of the list of 'mature and successful' democracies. You're point is?
You have some dangerously distorted views of Pakistan's history and current situation, in fact they are downright delusional. I'm thinking to ignore whatever you have written as figment of your imagination but honestly dude, I gotta ask you, what exactly are you trying to achieve here? Yes Pakistan would break into 12 different pieces good Lord the country just had a first ever peaceful and successful democratic transition of power and the world is truly coming to end because the locals decided to play safe and selected the same old electables? Really? Is that your definition of crisis that's required to break the country? How old is Pakistan? How old is its democratic tradition? How established is our voting habit and tradition? What's the education level of country? How old is the free media? How standardized is our polling system? Has India been divided into 50 different states despite they having bigger problem with regionalism, they unlike Pakistan have quite a lot of separatist movements going on? So please spare us your doom and gloom fantasies. When you consider all these questions, it becomes crystal clear that Pakistan is indeed on the right track and her situation can only improve both gradually and drastically if only a strong democratic set up is in place.
I guess being an MQM supporter and having innate infatuation with breaking the country goes hand in hand? What's say?
Perhaps you don't know how democracies really work or how they are made to work. Instead of dreaming about Pakistan breaking into 7 different little pieces because Punjab votes for PMLN or Urdu speakers vote for MQM, how about you question things like why PTI gained power in KPK? Why PPP who once enjoyed status of an only national party now has a mere regional identity, why ANP got wiped out; why despite the culture of religious conservatism there's a significant dent on JI/JUI's vote bank; why PMLN emerged as sole winners from Punjab despite PTI also being the most influential and popular party there? Why the city of Karachi broke the chains of fears and stood up for PTI? Whats your views on the record breaking rigging that took place this election?
So please invest your energies into talking about something better and something that actually matters. We'll all find out when the country is on the verge of breaking apart, there will still be GS.
I read this post thrice and got more impressed every time. Clear, sensible thoughts with superb choice of words. If the addressees still can't comprehend, I guess there is no way to make them doing so.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
^ why paving the way for rule of law has to be mutually exclusive with all the issues you mentioned above?
its not one person doing this, its government doing this. govt machinery can (and should) multitask unlike individuals
Let the right things be done, I don't believe that all govt machinery will be utilized in prosecuting Musharraf, the only concern I have is that he may in the end come up with another "NRO" "in the greater good of the nation".
I have NO issue this being the 'right' thing and should be done. But NS has brought it up just at the right time. Just when media and public was crying over budget, loadshedding issues, terrorism incidents, He and his cabinet has managed to divert attention and media was today going about bonkers.
He has served another gimmick for his vote bank some of which was getting a bit disillusioned with his u turns, 'khazana khali hai' and 'josh-e-khitabat' excuses. Musharraf will not be trialled or at least will not be punished. Article 6 and its ambiguities will be exposed.
Like i said, well played NS.
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
^ honestly, public/media/opposition will always be crying over one thing or the other. the huge pile of issues at hand we have, asks for multitasking. doing many things at a time, and doing them right. if by opening up this case we see that govt has paused pursuing all other issues like economy and energy crisis, then you'll be right about diverting the attention by this case, but if they continue to work, and we continue to see them work, then there is no reason why we shouldn't support this move.
and by the way, budget will get pass anyway, NS brings this issue up or not, new fiscal year starts after 4 days. this will be fooling our own self if we think that all this "risk" of calling for high treason case against former highest command of powerful military is just to divert attention from budget which will be approved opposition likes it or not. plus they have already made adjustments to the most criticized parts of the budget (exempted a number of items from GST increase, adjusted salaries etc)
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
there you go: PTI, MQM lawmakers extend support to Musharraf: Aide – The Express Tribune
It does not name the PTI/MQM lawmakers though. lets see who they are… MQM i don’t care, they are always like that. but PTI? why? If this is true, lets see how IK deals with them
Re: PM Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf to be tried under Article 6 for treason
Why shouldn't democratic parties support the case against Musharraf? Especially party like PTI which has been his biggest critic for most part part of his tenure. Honestly, the media and people here will shred Imran to pieces if he suddenly adopts a dismissive attitude against Musharraf considering he's been calling for court action against him for such long time. I think there should no disagreement over the issue that some sort of legal precedent has to set against military dictatorship. It really doesn't make sense for Mushrraf's biggest critics to oppose this case and open a whole new and long chapter of controversies when they supposedly have bigger and better things to worry about?.
Like it or not, new democracies always require some kind of symbolic massive victory and history breakthroughs from the shadows of old autocratic past -be it against monarchy or military dictatorship - to prove the point of its existence.