Pillars of Islam (Split from Aqeedah thread)

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

QUOTE Do you agree that Haduud are applied on Zahir?

Since I asked you If you say that to follow him (Imam Al-Mehdi(A)) is fardh all the time, after his declaration of imamat. Would you follow him even in that specific time frame in which he is doing mistake and repenting (correcting) his mistake (quickly). [Simple Question: Say fardh all the time OR Conditional]. You gave me the following answer. I also wanted you to bring you at this point.
quote:

bao bihari wrote
It is just like any other khalifah-imam ( sunni imam) …if he commits mistake it is ur duty to tell him……

It means you have both the duties at the same time, to follow and to oppose him in case if he do mistakes.

Which I think possible only; if you are more knowledgeable person than him, that you can see inside his heart at least or understand the matter better than him.

If you say that you have to tell him only about those mistakes which are known to everybody. It
means he is not even familiar to those things which are known to a common person in general public.
[/QUOTE]

We believe in the Concept of Imam Mahdi and since he not born yet how could we follow him? The time when Imam Mahdi (ra) announces his Imamate, it will be a must for the Muslims of that time to follow him.

You Shias believe him to be Hidden and nobody can meet him on request. Enlighten me, how do you follow him? Do you get instructions from him? Do Shia Aalims refer to him for any difficulties they have?

QUOTE Would he be able to become Khalifa/Imam of Ummah, with that level of knowledge?
[/QUOTE]

With whatever knowledge Allah (swt) will deem fit. *

Continue ...

[QUOTE]
If you say that its the duty of general public collectively, then you have to prove the authority of general public excluding Khlifa; from quran explicitly. However on the other hand we find lots of Aayat in Quran which goes against the opinion of general public. You must have to include Khalifa with general public to make a common decision; otherwise there would be no Ijmaah.

If there is a loose of community, society or human being collectively; then it would be more questionable than stealing just RS 10 which was a loose of a single person as I mentioned above.
[/QUOTE]

Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance; 42:38
Here the Quran clearly says that the Believers Affairs by MUTUAL CONSULTATIONS - that means the community as a whole is consulted in its affairs.

QUOTE What are the minimum required qualities of a Sunni Imam? Should he be more knowledgeable person in the ummah ? Should he be more pious person in the ummah ?
[/QUOTE]

Ibn Khadun (1375-1379 in his "Muqaddima, Chapters 25-28, defined the Khalifah as "The representative of the Prophet (pbuh); the exponent of the divinely inspired law (Shari'ah) and function to protect religion and the government of the world." Summarized from The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. e-k, pp 881-885
The prerequisites to becoming the Khalifa:
1. The Khalifa must be Muslim.
2. He must be a man.
3. He must be knowledgeable in Islaam, and be able to make independent decisions if necessary.
4. He must be just, have good morals, and be trustworthy.
5. He must be physically able (non-handicapped), spiritual, brave, and helpful to protect the Ummah against its enemies. His eyes, ears, tongue, and body in general should be in working condition.Today, for example, an artificial limb could be used to offset an otherwise crippling injury.
6. He must be politically, militarily, and administratively experienced.
7. He must be from The Tribe of Quraish because they used to be the leading tribe, the majority.

However, many Muslim scholars have commented on this prerequisite.
Al-Mawardi has written that the Khalifa should be Quraishi based on the saying of Abu Bakr that the Khalifas are Quraishi and their ministers are non-Quraishi. The majority of scholars are of this opinion. Other scholars have arrived at a different conclusion. Abu Bakr Al-Baqlani has said that the leader of the Muslims simply should be from the majority. Muhammad Riya-Ad-Deen and Abu Hanifa wrote that the leader must come from the majority to make it easy to follow him.
The legitimacy of the Khalifah depends on the Bai'ah, the Pledge of Allegece of the People, and as long as he could perform the following functions:
1. The defence and maintainance of religion
2. The decision of legal dispute
3. The protection of territory of Islam
4. The punishment of the wrong doers
5. The provision of troop for guarding the frontiers
6. The waging of Jihad againts the Kafir Harbi
7. The organization and collection pf zakat
8. The payment of salery and administration of public fund
9. The appointment of competent officials
10. Personal attention to the detail of the government

[QUOTE]
I could not get you what you said in the following statement: please explain it more.
quote:

bao bihari wrote
however this is a bit farfetched idea about hadrat mehdi and is not related to discussion…

(9-b) If you say that the topic we are discussing is not related to Imam Mehdi. tell me how?

Try not to make ambiguous statements; it will never harm you if you write things in clear and simple sentences. I could not guess for which “above” you are talking about. Although you have not written much in the paragraphs “above” even then its difficult to find the relevant answer of Question number 10 "above".

Unsatisfactory answer for Question 11. Since we are discussing things pertaining Deen and we believe that our Deen tells us everything about our life. There is no such kind of Dunyavi or Deeni definitions in the teachings of Islam; and the way Islam told us. The hadith of "Importance of seeking knowledge" best describes the meaning. Prophet said: "Seek knowledge even as far as China". Every thing which is ordered to do is your Deeny responsibility to do not the dunyavi.

As Anwaar Qureshi told earlier Muaamlaat, Akhalaaqiat, and Ibaadaat all three to construct the true image of Islam Muamalaat (mutual or business dealings), Moral System, and Prayers what else you need, nothing. So what is this Dunyavi. Actually you want to protect false people, whoever did bad in their life and whenever right-guided people of Allah opposed them in their bad deed, you protect them by saying that that was a Dunyavi Muammla, dont object on it.

For Question 12: Again; "Swal gundum - jawab chuna" The question which is asked; is different the answer you are providing. Please be precise and provide only that answer which is asked. other topics are being discussed in other places. if you have any objection you can raise there.

For Question 13: It means if Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) told us something about an Imam in Hadith; he is the chosen one. Is their anyother Sunni Imams who are chosen one. Since it is the one requirement for a person to be an Imam.

Continue ...

• .
[/QUOTE]

Continue ...

All the above hadith that you have quoted mention 12 Khilafahs/Imams/Amirs - Do you get the sense that it means Shia Imamate? Does any hadith above mention that they will be infallibles [Ma’sumeem]? The Prophet (saw) was always very precise and exact with his commands, he never said these twelve Khilafahs will be Hashmis or from his progeny. He said that they will be from Quraish.

[QUOTE]
For Question 14: You deny Shia Imams because they are not chosen one; They are not infallible; they are not Mafooz; they are not Maqbool and Quran did not say anything about them explicitly.

(14-a) So this is my question to you. Since you have a criteria that Hadith makes the person chosen one. As you said in the reply of question 13. Who are your imam about whom you can say they are chosen one through hadith. other than Imam Mahdi(A)
[/QUOTE]

Uwaym ibn Sa`ida narrated that the Prophet said: "Allah has chosen me, and He has chosen my Companions for me. He has made some of them my deputies, my sons-in-law, and my fathers-in-law. Anyone who curses them has the curse of Allah on him, and of the angels, and of all people. Allah will not accept any exchange nor compensation from him"*

42

QUOTEWhat thing makes these leader – imams different from a common person.
(a) Infallibility
(b) Mafooz or Maqbool
(c) Responsibility; Being Chosen one
(d) Quran says this explicitly

For Question 17: Since i told you before that "Shia believe that infallibility is attached NOT ONLY with the Title of Prophet, But Angles and some other human beings were infallible; Hazrat Marryum (A) mother of Prophet Jesus(A) is a good example here. Moreover being infallible does not make a person, a Prophet. Prophets are only those who are appointed by Allah. He had given this title as Prophet. Infallibility is one of the Khasa (particular characteristics; but not only for them)." So how can you say that After hadrat muhammad (PBUH) no one……. It means you agree with me that there were some who were infallible but those were not Prophets(A) before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) What proof do you have for After and before? I told that its not Khasa of Prophets; It the title Prophetwho makes them Prophets; There are other people who were infallible and those are not Prophets but they are infallible because they are Imams. For those about whom you think that they are Mahfooz or Maqbool we believe they are infallible.
[/QUOTE]

We take only Prophets (asa) to be infallible; others are protected by Allah (swt) from committing sins.

The following Ayah states that Allah (swt) will choose and befriend the righteous and then protect them. This protection is from any harm or sin. Allah (swt) doesn’t let the sin come near them.

"For my Protector is Allah, Who revealed the Book (from time to time), and He will choose and befriend the righteous. [7:196]
The following hadith conveys the same meaning that once the person has shown the piety, Allah (swt) rewards them with His ‘nearness’.
The Holy Prophet has said to the effect that: God Almighty becomes their hands with which they grasp, and becomes their eyes with which they see, and becomes their ears with which they hear and becomes their feet with which they walk.

[QUOTE]
Brother bao bihari! What Sholay is talking about is entirely different. He thought that its impossible to deny Shia concept of Imamat while talking with them about Imam Mahdi(A). That is why he denied the whole concept of Imam Mahdi(A) and tried to protect you to convert to shia faith. Same brother Ibn Sadique has done, he tried to re-cycle this thread and wants to make you more confuse. However I clarified him at the bottom.

How can you say that for Muslims Imamat is not the core issue? Muslim ummah is in problems and there is no unity because of not accepting a right-guided and God's appointed true Khlifa of Prophet who is Imam of Ummah. You can not even perform Jhihad without him for which you said there are 452 ayat in Quran. see what said earlier.
quote:

bao bihari wrote
we dont have belive in imams as hujjat ..and your core belive is that they are hujjat

Let me explain you.

(18) What position or authority of Imam of ummah OR Khalifa of Prophet Muhmmad on you. What is the authority of leader of Ummah for the approval of offensive Jihad in your terms if he is not Hujjat. Please explain in view of your following saying.
quote:

bao bihari wrote
Jihad normally being done today is defensive jihad...no need of approval from any muslim khilafah for that...

Means you can not perform Offensive Jihad without the prior permission of true Khalifa of Prophet (PBUH) who is the true Imam on Ummah.

Without doubt, this is the most important obligation (fard), for it is the Khilafah that is the only method for implementing the entirety of the laws of Islam. It is in the presence of the Khilafah that the laws of Islam are implemented and it is in its absence that they are suspended.

Individual action alone is not enough. The undertaking of this obligation revolves around a personality that have the ability to bear the burden of this responsibility.
[/QUOTE]

Continue ...

Imamate has never been Core issue in Islam but Khilaafat has been so. Right from the beginning of Islam up to 1924 has been in being. At times it has been very strong and at times it has been very weak depending on the condition and attitude of Muslims at large. The Khalifaat provides the Muslims the leadership and implements the Sharia.

There is this famous hadith by Hudhaifah bin Al-Yaman, who reported that the Messenger of Allah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam said:
"Prophethood (meaning Muhammad (SAW) himself) will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain, then Allah will raise it up whenever he wills to raise it up. AFTERWARDS, THERE WILL BE A CALIPHATE THAT FOLLOWS THE GUIDANCE OF PROPHETHOOD REMAINING WITH YOU FOR AS LONG AS ALLAH WILLS IT TO REMAIN. THEN, HE WILL RAISE IT UP WHENEVER HE WILLS TO RAISE IT UP. Afterwards, there will be a reign of violently oppressive [The reign of Muslim kings who are partially unjust] rule and it will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, there will be a reign of tyrannical rule and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, Allah will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Then, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood."
Then Hudhaifah said, "The Prophet stopped speaking." [As-Silsilah As-Sahihah, vol. 1, no. 5] [The same hadith without any change of a word is also narrated by Hadrat Nauman Ibn-e-Basheer Radiyallaho Anhu in Musnad-e-Ahmad Ibn-e-Hanbal.]

The Hadith above states that Al-Mahdi will live in the last period of rightly guided Caliphs that the Messenger of Allah (saw) mentioned himself.
The Messenger of Allah divided the history of the Muslim nation until the Day of Judgement into the following stages:
1) The reign of the Prophet Muhammad (saw).
A Caliphate that rules according to the guidance revealed to the Messenger of Allah (saw).
2) A Caliphate that rules according to the guidance revealed to the Messenger of Allah (saw).
This period is called the reign of the rightly guided Caliphs, starting with Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) , then Hazrat Umar ibn-ul-Khattab (ra), then Hazrat Uthman ibn-e-Affan (ra) and ending with the martyr of .Hazrat Ali bin Abi Talib Radi Allaho anhu, may Allah be pleased with them all.
Some scholars included the short reign of Hazrat Hasan bin Ali (ra).
These are the thirty (30) years which the Messenger of Allah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam stated comprised the reign of the rightly guided Caliphs.
The Prophet sallallaahualayhi wa sallam said:
"The Caliphate will remain in my nation after me for thirty years. Then, it will be a monarchy after that." [Ahmad, Tirmidhi and others, Sahih Al-Jami` ' As-Saghir no. 3341].

3) The reign of unjust rule: This reign contains some injustice to a varying degree between one king and another. This period started after Hadrat Hasan bin Ali (ra) the Umayyad, Abbasid, Mamluks and until the fall of the Great Ottoman Empire in the twentieth century.
4) The reign of the tyrannical rule: This period started in the end of the Great Ottoman empire and continues.
5) The return of a Caliphate that rules following the guidance and on the pattern of the Prophet (saw): This period will start with ‘arrival’ of Imam Mahdi (ra).
The Prophet Muhammad( saw) mentioned that just before the end of this world, the Muslim nation will be ruled by a Caliphate that will follow the guidance sent with the Messenger of Allah (saw).
Al-Mahdi will be an Imam (mujaddid) and a Caliph, among other Caliphs who ruled Muslims with justice. However, what differentiates Al-Mahdi from other Caliphs is that he will meet Isaa Ibn-e-Maryam (Jesus son of Mary) (PBUH).
Also, Issa (Jesus), the Prophet of Allah, will pray behind Al-Mahdi. Allah will give Al-Mahdi the ability to righteously rule the Muslim nation in the span of a night. He will fill the earth with justice, as it was filled with injustice.

"The Caliphate will remain in my nation after me for thirty years. Then, it will be a monarchy after that."
[Ahmad, Tirmidhi and others, Sahih Al-Jami` ' As-Saghir no. 3341].

Now you see that Prophet (saw) has emphatically stated that many Khalifahs will be oppressors and the later ones tyrants. [From history we know that this has passed exactly as the Prophet (saw) had said!].

43

We, the Sunnis, do not take our religion from the Khilafahs, apart from the rightly guided ones. Khilafaat in Islam after the demise of Prophet Muhammad (saw) deals with the leadership of Muslim Ummah.
There is a hadith that righteous Ulema are the true inheritors of the Prophet (saw). I think the Shias also believe in the same hadith.
“The Prophet (saw) gave the Ulema a very high maqam (position) by explaining that, “The Ulema are the inheritors of the Prophets.” From this narration we understand that the Ulema are the heirs of the prophets, but not from the perspective of them inheriting their wealth and belongings. On the contrary, any wealth left by a Prophet is Sadaqah. Instead, the Ulema are the heirs of the Prophets in their role as conveyers of the Deen. They bear the responsibility of preserving the Deen and carrying the Haq, regardless of the consequences that stand in the way of falsehood.
The Prophet (saw) stated in a hadith that has been declared Sahih by Imam Suyuti, “The one who pleases the Sultan (authority) with that which angers Allah leaves the Deen of Allah.”
This clearly shows that the people of Knowledge [Ulema] have to account and advise those in authority.
“…Those who truly fear God, among his Servants, are those who have knowledge [Ulema]…” (Qur’an, Fatir 35:28)

[58:11] …Allah will raise up to (suitable) ranks (and degrees) those of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge [Ulema].
In a hadith narrated by Imam Bayhaqi, the Prophet (saw) is recorded as saying, “There will be from the end of my Ummah a people that will be rewarded like the first generation as they enjoin the Maroof and forbid the Munkar.” “

You talk of Offensive Jihad, tell me in history which land was conquered by the Shias for Islam considering that they have their ‘Imam e Waqt’?

History is witness that Shias have never conquered any country/land for Islam.

Imam e Waqt for the Sunnis is the Khalifah/leader of Muslims. Under the leadership of Khalifah the Muslims stand united as one.

Prophet Muhammad (saw), said: “The Muslim Ummah is a unique ummah among the whole of mankind: Their land is one, their War is one, their Peace is one, their Honor is one and their Trust is one.”(Imam Ahmed).

Hisham ibn ‘Urwa reported on the authority of Abu Saleh on the authority of Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (Salallahu Alaihi Wasalaam) said: “Leaders will take charge of you after me, where the pious (one) will lead you with his piety and the impious (one) with his impiety, so listen to them and obey them in everything which conforms with the truth. If they act rightly it is for your credit, and if they acted wrongly it is counted for you and against them.”

As far the hadiths that you have quoted similar to the one below:

“The Prophet of Islam, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, said: “Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the Jahiliyyah.”
Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, p. 96”

44

This has nothing to do with Imamate in Shia-sense! This has to do with Muslim Unity under one Leadership/Khalifah/Imam.

You can see the condition of Muslims at the present time that they are divided into nationalities and each nationality is proud of itself and look down upon Muslims of other nationalities. At time of need they put their national interests before that of the Islamic Ummah at large. Without the Unity under the Khilafaat we are living in Jahiliyaah.

The Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,"He is not one us who calls for Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights forAsabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah." Abu Da'wud

"There are indeed people who boast of their dead ancestors;but in the sight of Allah they are more contemptible than the black beetle that rolls a piece of dung with its nose . Behold, Allah has removed from you the arrogance of the Time of Jahiliyyah (Ignorance) with its boast of ancestral glories. Man is but an Allah-fearing believer or an unfortunate sinner. All people are the children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust." At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud

"Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a coal from the coals of Hell-fire If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung)." . [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]

"The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever." [Muslim],

"The faithful are like one man: if his eyes suffers, his whole body suffers." [Muslim].

We, Sunnis, follow the Ulema e Haq who teach by Quran and Sunnah of Rasool Allah (saw).

45

In The Name of Allah, The Most Beneficent, The Most Kind

Aslam-o-Alakum

To be very very simple.

Brother ** Ibn Sadique ** I agree if I search through internet I would find the list of 5 pillars of Islam, its so common. No need even to impress anybody by showing the total number of Ayat in Quran. He was totally ignorant of the fact while he was asking the question.

By mentioning pay Al-Khumus and giving reference from a hadith you made the matter of 5 pillars of Islam more complex rather than you resolve it. Despite the fact the topic of Beliefs and Practices is yet unanswered as I described it in much detail in my earlier posts. I would say its not your fault because you entered in my ongoing discussion with bao bihari who has his own point of view. My question to bao bihari that that he made a false claim that his 5 pillars of Islam (as 5 articles collectively/together in one ayat) are not mentioned explicitly in the holy book of Quran. Above all that the list he provided for the 5 pillars of Islam “Jihad” possesses more number of Ayat as compared to other articles. So we can not over look it.

If brother bao bihari search through google or any other search engine he would be find study material about the topic Imamat as well. So question is still there. Is it a proof for truth? Absolutely not! One have to go through difficult process of research and study.

I appreciate brother bao bihari that he consult he fellows for his research work and those who help him.

Brother * bao bihari !* Your friend who came to help you simply ignored the terms you introduced in your replies Mahfooz and Maqbool. Not tuching these term in his answer shows that you were wrong in your opinion or he takes the thing the different way as you are. He did not even touch your amazing philosophy of “quickly repenting” or “repenting quickly”. See how worst the results of saying something without thinking?

Although companions is not our topic of discussion. If you bring a hadith from Abu Dawud and al-Tirmidhi from Ibn Mas`ud. I can also bring which would be opposite to it. Thinking not to de-track the topic I am not posting it here. Secondly you haven’t provided any reference from your opponent resources which is the basic rule of a healthy discussion. However it’s not obligatory on you.

The hadith quoted in Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal in which he favored Rule by force is the Allah’s will is a fabricated hadith which is fabricated by kings of Bani Ummayah and Bani Abbas to provide support their kingdoms from religion. Secondly you haven’t provided any reference from your opponent resources which is the basic rule of a healthy discussion.

Yes, this was my question. From where you introduced the term “Imam” for Imam Mehdi(AS). As it was never been used for any of your Kholafa.

When you say “ The time when Imam Mahdi (ra) announces his Imamate, it will be a must for the Muslims of that time to follow him.”. Now I am asking you the same question on your “MUST”. Once its not in the 5 pillars of Islam and not discussed in Quran explicitly, from where this must for following Imam Mehdi came for the followers of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamat.

What if I say that after Prophet Muhmmmad there is not only Imam Mehdi(AS) but there are other 11 Imams who were Imamat and we Muslims have to follow them at least at least as Ahle Sunnah will follow Imam Mehdi at that time when he will appear.

Best regards,

Waslam

inuit

46

inuit,

You keep bringing up old threads to continue sectarian discussions. Which part of this Moratorium do you not understand?

Read this carefully. Another warning and you will be banned from GUPSHUP. If you do not wish to comply with the moratorium on sectarian discussions, you are advised to find another place on the internet to continue your shia-sunni arguments. GUPSHUP has no place for these. You are most welcome to contribute your thoughts and opinions on other productive topics.

Click here to read about the Moratorium