Brother Bao Bihari talks about Pillars of Islam, is it something different. what is the difference between pillars and Aqeedah Can one thing be stated in Aqeedah and not in Pillars or vise versa. ?
This is a Question!
^^ Pillars of Islam:
1) Ash-Shahaadah ...the testimony that there is no deity but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.
2) As-Salaat Prayer the five ordained prayers based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
3) Az-Zakaat (Poor-Tax) the obligatory purification tax on the wealthy.
4) As-Sawm (Fasting) the abstinence from evil deeds and talk, all food and drink, and all sexual relations during the month of Ramadhan.
5) Al-Hajj (the pilgrimage) - during the month of Dhul-Hijjah to the first place of worship on earth, the Ka'bah.
These are the basic core Beliefs and there is no compromise in these. If one denies any of these - that's the way out of Islam.
Aqeedah is set of beliefs based on the Quran and Sunnah and Hadith of Rasool Allah (saw) - Denial of these not necessarily takes one out of Islam but lands ones with the Deviants.
I am sure some more knowledgeable can correct me if what I have stated is wrong.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by inuit: *
Brother Bao Bihari talks about Pillars of Islam, is it something different. what is the difference between pillars and *Aqeedah Can one thing be stated in Aqeedah and not in Pillars or vise versa. ?
This is a Question!
[/QUOTE]
i hope you have nothing aginst imamat as pillar of shia......u r just confused with terms right......
jazakallah ibn siddq...
In simple the following are the 5 Pillars of Islam as per brother Ibn Sadique.
- the profession of faith (shahada),
- Prayer
- The ‘Zakat’
- The Fast
- Pilgrimage (Hajj)
The above list is just mix-up of beliefs and Practices. The first one is Belief and the remaining four are Practices, which does not make any sense. As per brother Ibn Sadique The Pillars of islam is the basic/core beliefs. there is no compromise on these Pillars of Islam. If one denies any of these - that’s the way out of Islam.
My Question to bao bihari that who complied the list of 5 pillars of islam. Please provide me a single specific verse of Quran, which you are taking as a base of your argument as mentioned above that imamat is not in 5 pillars like Shahada, namaz, saum, hajj and Zakat. Until you provide the proof, your demand *“concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam”*at the base of 5 Pillars would be baseless, however the first pillar Shahada is needs more discussion. but not now. Remember one thing you already close the doors of interpretations. no one need interpretation of hadith to reafferm the basic concept of pillars of islam.
What about Jihad. Why is it not included in the five pillar of Islam. Is Jihad compromise able. What if one denies Jihad?. Of Course he will be a kafir. So ibn Sadique formula is not correct. Give Quranic reference for the reason that why not including jihad in this list of pillars of islam.
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=34830&dgn=3
What are the fundamental articles of Emaan are: To believe in ALLAH, His Angles, His Books, His Messengers, the last Day and to believe in divine destiny, both the good and the evil thereof.
And who complied the list of Iman e Mujmal and Iman e Mufassal, Who divided these two give reference from quran. What is the (Hujjat) authenticity of Hujjat al-lslam imam al-Tahawi a Shafi/Sufi scholar to compile the list of Aqaaeed?
Okay, what will happen if Imam Mehdi re-appears in your (present) time and you deny him. Will you become kafir or Muslim. Remember imam mehdi is not a prophet he is an imam.
If you say that these are not defined in Quran as you believe then how can you ask us to Prove Imamat as pillars of Sunni Islam. First prove defination of 5 pillar. if you say that these came sepratly, than the case of imamat will be discussed from Quran. This was my simple answer to brother bao bihari and other brothers in Ahle Sunnah who always refer their 5 pillars of Sunni Islam while discussing imamat.
Is it me, who is confused?
wasalam
Brother inuit I am sure you being a Shia will have a lot of disagreements with Aqueedah of Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jama'a. When I posted it here I had written:
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I am posting the Aqeedah of Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jama'a for information purposes only.
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Please open a new thread with all the queries you have, but try one query per thread so that those who know can reply back to your query. I am going to be rather busy for next 2 weeks - If I have the time and if I know the answer I will respond. I hope you don't mind.
Thread split... lets keep this discussion solely for the "Pillars of Islam".
Thanks and Jazak Allah :-)
The five pillars of Islam (refering to rituals including saying shahada by tongue!) as mentioned by brother Ibn Sadique are not enough.. because those are just pillar.. If only those pillars were the building of the Deen, then this building is only a "ruin" site with only pillars left.... it needs Muaamlaat, Akhalaaqiat, and Ibaadaat all three to construct the true image of Islam
Wallah-O-Alam!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
The five pillars of Islam (refering to rituals including saying shahada by tongue!) as mentioned by brother Ibn Sadique are not enough.. because those are just pillar.. If only those pillars were the building of the Deen, then this building is only a "ruin" site with only pillars left.... it needs Muaamlaat, Akhalaaqiat, and Ibaadaat all three to construct the true image of Islam
Wallah-O-Alam!
[/QUOTE]
I agree with you brother Anwaar Qureshi, This also includes Imamat, Jihad and many other things. This is what I am trying to make brother bao bihari understand. So his demand was false. This is my question.
[quote]
Originally posted by bao bihari:
i am only asking for concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam are mentioned...
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I hope i will never see this style of asking questions again from our Sunni brothers.
thanks wasalam,
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by inuit: *
I agree with you brother **Anwaar Qureshi, This also includes **Imamat, Jihad* and many other things. This is what I am trying to make brother bao bihari understand. So his demand was false.
[/QUOTE]
I am not sure about Imaamat as it is a concept amongs shia brothers however, Jihaad comes under Ibaadaat as I already mentioned it... however, if we take the concept of Imaamat (khilaafat could probably be the closest term for us Ahl-e-Sunnah to relate it to) then it also can be defined under "Muaamlaat" (-e-duniyaa) as well as under Ibaadaat as per duty for a muslim to establish it or if it is not established, work to make it establish!
Wallah-O-Alam!
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
I am not sure about Imaamat as it is a concept amongs shia brothers however, **Jihaad* comes under Ibaadaat as I already mentioned it... however, if we take the concept of Imaamat (khilaafat could probably be the closest term for us Ahl-e-Sunnah to relate it to) then it also can be defined under "Muaamlaat" (-e-duniyaa) as well as under Ibaadaat as per duty for a muslim to establish it or if it is not established, work to make it establish!
Wallah-O-Alam!
[/QUOTE]
You have only one logic in your mind, not accepting Imamat as your belief that "it is a concept amongs shia brothers", This is the same as a great Sunni scholar (I think) Moulana Ismail Dehlvi said "asal main namaz haath khool kar hi purna hay, kyoun ka shia haath khool kar namaz purtay hain, iss liay hum haath baaund kar purhain gaay."
Similarly one scholar said that "actually wear ring in right hand is sunnah, but because shia wear rings in their right hand that is why we wear in our left hand." These were just example I don’t want to start another debate here.
If this is the logic in your mind that you deny those entire things which shia do, then you should deny every thing. Quite insensible!
Additionally my question is to bao bihari ** on his claim that *i am only asking for concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam are mentioned... * **I asked you a simple question that provide me a single specific verse of Quran, which you are taking as a base of your argument as mentioned. Remember you yourself locked the door of using any interpretations. Right.
I would rather ask brother bao Bihari to control your Sunni brothers. They are creating more trouble for you. Coming-up with more interpretations terms Muaamlaat -e-duniyaa, Ibaadaat & Akhalaaqiat. I think each of your friend studied Islamyat in different school and their books were from different Education Boards written by different Deenyat Scholars that is why they are interpreting differently. Puting your question in more trouble instead of solving the problem. You heard the story of a boy and a his Bear friend. it seems a same kind of case here. *u r just confused with terms *
If Jihad can come under Ibaadaat then Nimaz (salat) and Roza(sowm, fast) can also come under Ibaadaat.. Obviously because these are also Ibaadaat. Moreover Ibaadaat as a single heading is not in 5 Pillars of Islam, which are mentioned by brother bao Bihari as his claim against the concept of Imamat in Shia school of thought in Islam. So this logic does not make any sense.
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Sura 32, Ayat 20: "And We made of them Imams to guide Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications."
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Intuit..sorry for late reply..but am right now very busy..will reply inshallah in 2 or 3 days....
And no one is making things difficult yaar..we are here to learn not to impose our thoughts on others...even if someone from sunnis want to agree with you ...i have nothing against him....
** Imamat and pillar of Islams **
Pillar of islam is a simple term coined to explain the important terms that form the basics of our eeman and islam….these are those important rituals ( and are mixture of ibadaat mamlaat and eemaniat ) that form our core belive…..not beliving in any of them puts one out of islam….. however the list is not all exhaustive as many other important terms are not mentioned .
The bases of me stating that Imamat is a core concept of shiaism ..
I based my belive that immat is a core concept of shiaism over a written piece by renouned pakistani scholar as syed Muhammad mohsin ijtihadi imam of masjid zain ul abidin karachi. He on behalf of pakistani shias wrote a letter to moulana yousaf of karachi regarding the belives of shias ..and started his letter by stating the shia pillar of islam ..according to him they were ..
1-Tauheed
2-Nabuwaat
3-Maad
4-Adul
5-Imamat
Imamat being most important of all ..refer asool e kafi kitab ul hajj chapter at tasleem wa fazul ul muslimeen—being so important that every prophet gave shadah of imams should be mentioned in quran …as this is the core issue on which the nijaat of all muslimeen depends(according of shia belive) …..and for that matter I see no other reason to look for quran to have expicitly mention the term with all the details as was the case with jihad or namaz or hajj …..
Having said that ….now I come to ur points one by one….
I have already mentioned that I took the terms from one of ur representatives writings….and is also proven from shia sources that imamat is the core shia belive…
Some more refrence are….
Bihar ul anwaar …
“ Imam jaffer recited surah al e imaran ayah 74 and explained that –latumin beh- means iman on aap :saw: and walaytansurah means nusrah of ali . he also said that every prohet took the oath of nabuwat of app :saw: and imamat of ali…”
Asool e kafi
“sadeer kehtay hain kay main nay imama baqir say arz kia aap kay shia aapus main ikhtilaf kartay hain, farmaya tujh ko kia pari hay ..log sirf teen batoon kay mukalif hain.
1-imam ko pehchanay
2-imam kay hukam ko manay
3-ikhtilaf main imam ki taraf riju karain.”
Second…
You may agree with me that imamat is the core issue between shia and sunni …it was the same issue which arouse during the time of appointment of first khilafah according to your belive….you belive that khalifah shoulad have been imam e waqt and we suni as we don’t belive in this concept belive that hadrat abu bakr 
is the right ful khalifah bila fasul …
So accordingly the difference between muslims started on the issue of imamat….
Third—
All the interpretations of quran and sunnah depends on imam …so it is not wrong to say that it is the core shia belive…
The ….ithna ashri shia are caled imamia shia meaning that this is their core belive…
Having said that ……now should I ask –leave aside pillars of islam — that imamat being the core shia issue should have been mentioned in quran…..
I may end my rather abrupt post here.so that we can keep track of where are we heading….. and due to shortage of time 
Kindly feel free to quote me on any thing u disagree with…….
And kindly don’t confuse with terms…….the core aim of discussion is
Imamat being the primary issue of shia belive and due to the fact that it is the beive on which other shia issues depend should have been ** expilcitly ** mentioned in quran
Bao bihari ….
^^
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Asalam-o-Alakaum
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* bao bihari wrote *
Pillar of islam is a simple term coined to explain the important terms that form the basics of our eeman and islam
[/quote]
I agree with the above statement.
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* bao bihari wrote *
The bases of me stating that Imamat is a core concept of shiaism” (Shia Islam).
[/Quote]
You are right. Let me make a little addition in the statement. Imamat is one of the 5 core concepts of shia Islam.
You based your believe that Imamat is the core concept of Shia Islam only from that letter written by Syed Muhammad Mohsin Ijtihadi to Moulana Yousaf.
However if you take any of the following books;
1) Shia Prayers book, (Namaz Jafariya),
2) Tuzi Al Masaail (by any Marjay/Mujtahid)
3) Tohfa Tal Awam of any time.
You will find the same list of Usool e Deen. But the sequence is different as you mentioned from that letter. I would thank brother Ibn Sadique who gave a good explanation in one of his posts in another thread. You can check the detail from there for ready reference to know more about Usool e Deen.
1) Tauheed
2) Adul
3) Nabuwaat
4) Imamat
5) Maad
Note: I never heard the name of this famous personality in Shias of Pakistan; anyway
In all books you will find the term Usool e Deen (roots of religion). Not the pillars of religion. In Usool e Deen only the fundamental beliefs of Religions is discussed. Practices are discussed in Fruh e Deen (steams, branches, details, or Act of Religion). Acts is the most appropriate term for Fruh as I think.
Furoo-e-deen (Branches of Religion)
Namaaz (Prayers)
Saum (Fasting)
Hajj (Pilgrimage)
Zakat (Poor Rate)
Khums (Wealth Tax)
Jehad (Striving)
Amr-Bil-Ma'roof (Enjoin what is good)
Nahi-Anil-Munkar (Forbid what is wrong)
Tawalla (To love and respect the Ahl-ul-Bait and their friends)
Tabarra (To disassociate from the enemies of the Ahl-ul-Bait)
In some books you will find 8 Furoo e deen instead of 10 as I listed above. They listed Amr-Bil-Ma'roof & Nahi-Anil-Munkar together and Tawalla & Tabarra together.
Shia don’t mix-up the Aaqaeed with Acts like Ahle Sunnah do in their Pillars of islam as I mentioned before in my previous post.
[quote]
]I wrote*
The above list is just mix-up of beliefs and Practices. The first one is Belief and the remaining four are Practices, which does not make any sense.
[/quote]
BUT THIS IS NOT THE QUESTION THAT IMAMAT IS IMPORTANT OR NOT. MY DISCUSSION WITH YOU IS NOT ON ITS IMPORTANCE.
I hope we both will be agreed on it that for every creature in this creation of Allah it is must for him/her to accept/believe/give shahada for Allah and for the Aayat(signs, hujjat) of Allah. Prophets, Books, Angels, Day of Doom/judgment. If one deny any thing which came from Allah. He would be disbeliever.
Shia believe that Imams are also from Allah like His other Aayat(signs, hujjat). Imams are true Khulafa of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Although on concept of Khalafat and Imamat; Ahle Sunnah and shia have no major difference. The only difference is that “Who they are?”
Both agreed that if somebody deny a Kalifa of Prophet(PBUH). He would be ignorant, some strongly says; he is Kafir. This is one of the allegations against Shias in Pakistan by the movement of Sipah Sahaba that Shias don’t believe in Khalafat e Rashida that is why they are Kafir. Some put the same question the other way; Shias don’t believe in Sahaba that is why they are Kafir. (However there are many other allegations but this one is the basic) On the other hand it’s also true that Khalafat e Rashida or Sahabiyat is not in list of 5 pillars of Sunni Islam.
We all believe that The Prophets must have to give Sahada (and they gave); which include Sahadat of Allah and His Last and final Prophet (PBUH). Here is my question to you as per Sunni believe. Would it be possible if for any of the Prophet who don’t believe in Sahaba or Khalifat e Rashida. However it is not mentioned in 5 Pillars of Islam.
And we all firmly know that Prophet Jesus(AS) will return back from skies and pray behind Imam Mehdi(AS). Who is one of the Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). *Whoever will disobey him at that time will be kafir and Imam with fight against him for the sake of Allah and Prophet Jesus will accompany him. What do you think about other Imams who have the same or even more value after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as the value of Imam Mehdi (AS). *
As I mentioned above still what I wrote was not the question. However you realized after my solid reply;
[quote]
* bao bihari wrote *
concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam
[/quote]
[quote]
* bao bihari wrote *
no one need interpretation of hadith to reafferm the basic concept of pillars of islam
[/quote]
The following was my reply in your above question.
[quote]
*I worte*Please provide me a single specific verse of Quran, which you are taking as a base of your argument as mentioned above that imamat is not in 5 pillars like Shahada, namaz, saum, hajj and Zakat. Until you provide the proof, your demand "concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam" at the base of 5 Pillars would be baseless.
“I asked you a simple question that provide me a single specific verse of Quran, which you are taking as a base of your argument as mentioned. Remember you yourself locked the door of using any interpretations.”
[/quote]
Finally you gave-up your question by saying
[quote]
* bao bihari wrote *
–leave aside pillars of islam ---
[/quote]
But if you consider your first question; a valid question by remove/leaving *as other pillars of islam * from the question; them many of other Shia brother have mentioned number of Aayat of Quran as your answer.
Now question is refined and diverted that discussion by saying
[quote]
* bao bihari wrote *
Imamat being the primary issue of shia belive and due to the fact that it is the beive on which other shia issues depend should have been explicitly mentioned in quran”
[/quote]
Now this is a valid/correct/and an excellent question. Thank You
As an answer I will ask you a simple counter question;
Khalafat being the primary issue of Sipah Sahaba (and people like that) against shias and due to the fact that it is the issue on which other issues depend should have been explicitly mentioned in Qur’an; that disbeliever of Sahaba or Khalafat e Rashida is a Kafir; However its not mentioned in 5 pillars of Islam. For which You and brother Ibn Sadique said; These are the basic core Beliefs and there is no compromise in these. If one denies any of these - that's the way out of Islam.*Remember I am also locking this question with the statement that **no interpretation from Hadith for this issue.*. Otherwise lift this ban from your question first.
Similarly as I think belief about Imam Mehdi (AS) not explicitly mentioned in Qur’an; however both Sunni and Shias believe in it that He will be there. and Disbeliever will be killed by his sword.
But for detail about expilcitly I invite other Shia members to answer or I myself will post my answer with examples. Till that time think about my question and condition lifting the BAN of interpretation from Hadith.
At the end I will invite you to become a true follower of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Quran and Ahle Bait(AS). May Allah guide you in this struggle.
Wasalam, brother
[QUOTE]
Shia believe that Imams are also from Allah like His other Aayat(signs, hujjat). Imams are true Khulafa of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Although on concept of Khalafat and Imamat; Ahle Sunnah and shia have no major difference. The only difference is that “Who they are?”
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I disagree ........we dont have belive in imams as hujjat ..and your core belive is that they are hujjat........
sara masla he ye hay....
[QUOTE]
We all believe that The Prophets must have to give Sahada (and they gave); which include Sahadat of Allah and His Last and final Prophet (PBUH). Here is my question to you as per Sunni believe. Would it be possible if for any of the Prophet who don’t believe in Sahaba or Khalifat e Rashida. However it is not mentioned in 5 Pillars of Islam.
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Sorry but could nt resist this piece....
andhay ko indheray main bari door ki sujhi......what a question .....
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Whoever will disobey him at that time will be kafir and Imam with fight against him for the sake of Allah and Prophet Jesus will accompany him. What do you think about other Imams who have the same or even more value after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as the value of Imam Mehdi (AS).
[/QUOTE]
bhai yahi to masla hay...we dont belive ur imams....as imams..hum jis concept per yaqeen nahin rakhtay us kay baray main kia bolain.....
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As I mentioned above still what I wrote was not the question. However you realized after my solid reply;
quote:
bao bihari wrote
concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam
quote:
bao bihari wrote
no one need interpretation of hadith to reafferm the basic concept of pillars of islam
The following was my reply in your above question.
quote:
I wortePlease provide me a single specific verse of Quran, which you are taking as a base of your argument as mentioned above that imamat is not in 5 pillars like Shahada, namaz, saum, hajj and Zakat. Until you provide the proof, your demand "concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam" at the base of 5 Pillars would be baseless.
“I asked you a simple question that provide me a single specific verse of Quran, which you are taking as a base of your argument as mentioned. Remember you yourself locked the door of using any interpretations.”
Finally you gave-up your question by saying
quote:
bao bihari wrote
–leave aside pillars of islam ---
[/QUOTE]
I did not gave up my queston...u were going in circles...we both have agreed on defination of pillar...now as i have reaffermed that imamat is core shia belive......it should be explicitly mentioned in quran........that is the crust of the topic -----hope u now understand what is the purpose of the thread----
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But if you consider your first question; a valid question by remove/leaving as other pillars of islam from the question; them many of other Shia brother have mentioned number of Aayat of Quran as your answer.
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NO one according to the question........explicit ayahs mentioning imamat..
For ur question....start a new thread......i'll love to answer....
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At the end I will invite you to become a true follower of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Quran and Ahle Bait(AS). May Allah guide you in this struggle
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Ameen and same dua for you and all others .....
[quote]
* Originally posted by bao bihari *
I did not gave up my queston...u were going in circles...we both have agreed on defination of pillar...now as i have reaffermed that imamat is core shia belive......it should be explicitly mentioned in quran........that is the crust of the topic
[/quote]
I told you that I understand this thing; but your way of asking question by giving a wrong example was inappropriate.
Your answer is incomplete, simply aaian baain shaain you left the major and the most important of my post to answer. Please use proper Mahawara if you know Urdu. What happened with question? You could not answer it. For your convenience I am posting that part again. If you have any misunderstand; you can ask.
[quote]
Originally posted by inuit:
Both agreed that if somebody deny a Kalifa of Prophet(PBUH). He would be ignorant, some strongly says; he is Kafir. This is one of the allegations against Shias in Pakistan by the movement of Sipah Sahaba that Shias don’t believe in Khalafat e Rashida that is why they are Kafir. Some put the same question the other way; Shias don’t believe in Sahaba that is why they are Kafir. (However there are many other allegations but this one is the basic) On the other hand it’s also true that Khalafat e Rashida or Sahabiyat is not in list of 5 pillars of Sunni Islam.
We all believe that The Prophets must have to give Sahada (and they gave); which include Sahadat of Allah and His Last and final Prophet (PBUH). Here is my question to you as per Sunni believe. Would it be possible if for any of the Prophet who don’t believe in Sahaba or Khalifat e Rashida. However it is not mentioned in 5 Pillars of Islam.
[/quote]
This is not the problem that you don’t believe in our Imam(A); neither I am asking you to do. The following reply shows that you even don’t believe in your own Imam. You have to tell **(aap ko bolna puray ga) because Sunnies believe in Imam Mehdi and 2nd coming of Prophet Jesus (Son of Marry) from skies before the day of doom. I asked you the following question as per your believe.
[quote]
Originally posted by inuit:
And we all firmly know that Prophet Jesus(AS) will return back from skies and pray behind Imam Mehdi(AS). Who is one of the Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Whoever will disobey him at that time will be kafir and Imam with fight against him for the sake of Allah and Prophet Jesus will accompany him. What do you think about other Imams who have the same or even more value after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as the value of Imam Mehdi (AS).
[/quote]
If you don’t know about it, you can review your stuff (books and literature). For ready reference you an listen that lecture ** The Final Mujaddid (The Mahdi) & Allama Iqbal posted by Anwaar Qureshi ** on 01-21-2004
Why would I open a new thread; I think you changed your mind. I understood what I am trying to say; now you want to come from a different angle. That I why asking me to open a new thread. No. Mian I am comfortable here. First answer my questions then we will think about something else.
[quote]
quote:
Originally posted by inuit:
Both agreed that if somebody deny a Kalifa of Prophet(PBUH). He would be ignorant, some strongly says; he is Kafir. This is one of the allegations against Shias in Pakistan by the movement of Sipah Sahaba that Shias don’t believe in Khalafat e Rashida that is why they are Kafir. Some put the same question the other way; Shias don’t believe in Sahaba that is why they are Kafir. (However there are many other allegations but this one is the basic) On the other hand it’s also true that Khalafat e Rashida or Sahabiyat is not in list of 5 pillars of Sunni Islam.
We all believe that The Prophets must have to give Sahada (and they gave); which include Sahadat of Allah and His Last and final Prophet (PBUH). Here is my question to you as per Sunni believe. Would it be possible if for any of the Prophet who don’t believe in Sahaba or Khalifat e Rashida. However it is not mentioned in 5 Pillars of Islam.
This is not the problem that you don’t believe in our Imam(A); neither I am asking you to do. The following reply shows that you even don’t believe in your own Imam. You have to tell (aap ko bolna puray ga) because Sunnies believe in Imam Mehdi and 2nd coming of Prophet Jesus (Son of Marry) from skies before the day of doom. I asked you the following question as per your believe.
[/QUOTE]
Intuit bhai...we are discussuing the very concept of imamat in this thread....our concept of imamat is much different then shia concpet og imamat.......
May i again have to tell you that we are discussing the imamat belive as core shia belive and the proof of this from quran.....** we dont consider imams as infallible individual**.....when we say imam mehdi ..we by no means ..have the same concept of imamat as shiaz....
If you have some thing better ..plz provide us..simply asking unrelated questions makes no sense....
khair....aap ko shaer ka mutlab PM main sumjha doon kia...tashreeh kay sath ....:-)
Aslam-o-Alakum,
[quote]
* bao bihari wrote: * we are discussuing the very concept of imamat in this thread....
[/quote]
Try to understand. Dont confuse the following two things. Be responsible!
(a) It was NOT simply "concept of Imamat" as you wrote.
(b) It was "Proof of Shia concept of Imamat from Quran as 5 Pillars of Islam" as you wrote at the top of this thread.
I am pasting it again for your convenience. You were insisting to give proof as 5 Pillars of Islam
[Quote]
* bao bihari wrote: i am only asking for concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam are mentioned...
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When I asked you certain question, you changed your views by saying *now should I ask –leave aside pillars of islam ---
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* bao bihari wrote: our concept of imamat is much different then shia concpet og imamat.......
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I agree with you. I never said two school of thoughts are same in the concept of Imamat. However this is NOT my discussion. To be honest I was discussing with you the only ONE thing **as 5 Pillars of Islam. For which the split of thread made by the Admin and for which I proved your demand invalid by asking certain questions. And finally you dropped the idea of asking questions in that tone. You corrected yourself and said *now should I ask –leave aside pillars of islam --- After this I think the purpose of the thread is solved.
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* bao bihari wrote: *May i again have to tell you that we are discussing the imamat belive as core shia belive and the proof of this from quran.....
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At this point of time the discussion is on its right track. and for which I also asked you a question to make you understand the concept of Imamat and for which you could not give an appropriate answer.
However, since I told you that purpose of this particular thread is solved at your saying now should I ask–leave aside pillars of islam ---
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* bao bihari wrote: *we dont consider imams as infallible individual...
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Note: However this topic is not the core topic for discussion in this thread. if you want to discuss these things you can open an other thread. Anyway.
This is true:
That Ahle Sunnah DO NOT considers Imams of Ahle Bait (A) as infallible. In simple the Imams can do mistakes. Some Ahle Sunnah says that only the Prophets are infallible. some says that Prophets and Angles are infallible. and some takes other meanings to this concept. Even some beleive that Prophets can do mistakes. Which is against the true teachings of Islam. Anyway.
Shia believe that infallibility is attached NOT ONLY with the Title of Prophet, But Angles and some other human beings were infallible; Hazrat Marryum (A) mother of Prophet Jesus(A) is a good example here. Moreover being infallible does not make a person, a Prophet. Prophets are only those are appointed by Allah had given this title as Prophet. Infalliblilty is one of the Khasa (particular characteristics; but not only for them). Prophets are not more than 1,24,000 and not less than 1,24,000. I am not going in to more detail under this topic here. Like not all the Prophets are Rasool, many Prophets sent for some specific area for some specific nation or tribe. etc etc. Prophets can have two titles at the same time. e.g. Nabuwat and Rasalat. etc. Similarly Prophets can have more than two titles at the same time, Nabuwat, Rasalat and Imamat. But this does not mean that all others who were just Imams; were/are Prophets also. This depends on the assignment of duty by Allah. Title of Nabuwat, Rasalat and Imamat are actually named by the duties assigned to them by Allah NOT by People. Which are different for each other? Not going in to more detail here neither required. Sometime People misunderstand duties and rights. It is their responsibility to perform their duties which are assigned by Allah and to believe in them and to love them as appreciation/admiration of their hard work in this life is not their duty, its our duty and their right. Their basic mission was to make people believe in God, the Almighty, but God stepped forward and made a faith for people to believe in them along with the belief in God. Allah consider it as incomplete belief if we don’t believe in them and just believe in Allah. Which is not acceptable faith by Him.
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* bao bihari wrote: *when we say imam mehdi ..we by no means ..have the same concept of imamat as shiaz....
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Except the following three all other are common.
(1) Imam Mehdi will born sometime later
(2) Imam Mehdi is not infallible
(3) Imam Mehdi will be the descendents of Imam Hassan(A) instead of Imam Hussain(A)
These are the three basic difference among Shias and Sunnis; however
(1) There will be Imam Mehdi before the day of Doom; who will work for the Islam
(2) Imam Mehdi (A) will be appointed by Allah. No elections or Selection will be made.
(3) Islam will again be in power in his time; he will again purify it. (you can give anyother meaning too). In other words he will tell us the truth and remove misconceptions. and we consider him as more knowledgeable than us and more authority than us on people. He will be right by the fazal of Allah. (He will be a right-guided person by the grace of Allah). He will bring the true interpretations of Quran, and disregard all those false interpretations made by us(ummah). which are made by us using our own common sense and knowledge if they are against the teachings of True islam.
(4) Hazrat Isa (Prophet Jesus) (A) the son of Marryum (A) will come again from skies (his 2nd coming) for his support. Prophet Jesus (A) will pray behind him under his leadership.
(5) They will kill Dajal and Sufyani etc
The above are the common concepts among shias and sunnies.
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* bao bihari wrote: *simply asking unrelated questions makes no sense....
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Belief of Imamat is not unislamic. I proved it by using the example of Imam Mehdi(A); we have to follow him at any cost, no other way. All sunnies and all Shias (all muslims) must have to follow him upon his appearance after Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). Otherwise they will be killed as other Kafir will be killed by his sword.
If it is NOT so important for Muslims to follow him; then why his opponents, who are disbeliever; will be killed by his sword. We should live with open eyes and ears. Ready for him all the time. Because it not allowed to live even a single moment without an Imam. I am not giving any hadith reference from Sunni books niether shia books because I assume you already know about it and secondly we have decided not use reference from hadith as interpretations. but even then allow me to write two hadith, you can disregard it. Prophet(PBUH) said if you don’t know about your imam of time; leave and go to jungles and eat wood and stay there until you die. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) also said: One who died without recognizing his imam, he died as Jahaliya
Brother bao bihari Now its upto you; deny the concept of Imam Mehdi(a) (Sunni way) or accept the concept of Imamat in islam and its importance because these both things are conflicting. If you want to keep the concept of Imam Mehdi(A) in Sunni islam then you must have accept the importance of Imamat in islam. If you decide to keep Imamat and Imam Mehdi (the sunni way) in Sunni teachings with all its importance as I mentioned in the previous paragraph (that upon denying a person will be killed by his sword); Then you must have to proved it explicitly from Quran as you are asking me. At that time no body can claim that I denied Imam Mehdi because his name was not explicitly in Quran. He simply will be killed and Allah will throw them into fire.
Before writing an answer; just keep the Example of Prophet Noah (A), his flood and process of making an ark and process of planting trees from seeds for the ark again and again from Quran. How people were leaving him at the end of each season. and only few were left at the end after several tests by Allah, that to find out and to show who are true believers. Why the time of Prophet Noah's(A) flood was not mentioned explicitly by Allah for the believers? He Allah just wanted to see who will stay til end.
These are not unrelated questions: These are examples from Quran to understand the concept of Imamat.
That is why no name of any Imam including imam Mehdi(A) (Sunni way) mentioned explicitly in Quran to see who are the true believers and then unbelievers will be thrown into fire. Just same as Imam Mehdi (A) who will be appointed by Allah all other imams were appointed by Allah who came before him. We have to find them and believe in them and stay on right path same as very few people of Prophet Noah(A) stayed on right path. That is why Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) gave Ark of Noah(A) as example of Imams of Ahle Bait(A)
May Allah protect you from the sword of Imam Mehdi (A) (Sunni way) and be in his army; in whom you believe; without having any explicitly Ayat of Quran. And I pray for Sooner coming of Imam Mehdi(A). We are anxiously waiting for him.
Wasalam
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Aslam-o-Alakum,
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Waalikum as-salam
A-*Defining pillar of islam *
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bao bihari wrote: we are discussuing the very concept of imamat in this thread....
Try to understand. Dont confuse the following two things. Be responsible!
(a) It was NOT simply "concept of Imamat" as you wrote.
(b) It was "Proof of Shia concept of Imamat from Quran as 5 Pillars of Islam" as you wrote at the top of this thread.
I am pasting it again for your convenience. You were insisting to give proof as 5 Pillars of Islam
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bao bihari wrote: i am only asking for concept of imamat in quran as other pillars of islam are mentioned...
When I asked you certain question, you changed your views by saying now should I ask –leave aside pillars of islam ---
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You keep on asking this question throughout this thread…..i thought I have sufficiently explained why I said that plz leave aside pillar discussion…..for your convineance I post it again…
This was what u posted after I defined the term..
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bao bihari wrote
Pillar of islam is a simple term coined to explain the important terms that form the basics of our eeman and islam
I agree with the above statement.
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My point is…the discussion was split because it was diverted toward pillar defination… now that we both have agreed on the term ..i-e it is coined to explain certain terms..certain core belives….i want the discussion back on track….
B-*Defining imamat and concept of imamat *
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bao bihari wrote: our concept of imamat is much different then shia concpet og imamat.......
I agree with you. I never said two school of thoughts are same in the concept of Imamat. However this is NOT my discussion. To be honest I was discussing with you the only ONE thing as 5 Pillars of Islam. For which the split of thread made by the Admin and for which I proved your demand invalid by asking certain questions. And finally you dropped the idea of asking questions in that tone. You corrected yourself and said now should I ask –leave aside pillars of islam --- After this I think the purpose of the thread is solved.
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I have answered this ..look above ^
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bao bihari wrote: May i again have to tell you that we are discussing the imamat belive as core shia belive and the proof of this from quran.....
At this point of time the discussion is on its right track. and for which I also asked you a question to make you understand the concept of Imamat and for which you could not give an appropriate answer.
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I still cant understand the relevance and importance of the question…?
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bao bihari wrote: we dont consider imams as infallible individual...
Note: However this topic is not the core topic for discussion in this thread. if you want to discuss these things you can open an other thread. Anyway.
This is true:
That Ahle Sunnah DO NOT considers Imams of Ahle Bait (A) as infallible. In simple the Imams can do mistakes. Some Ahle Sunnah says that only the Prophets are infallible. some says that Prophets and Angles are infallible. and some takes other meanings to this concept. Even some beleive that Prophets can do mistakes. Which is against the true teachings of Islam. Anyway.
Shia believe that infallibility is attached NOT ONLY with the Title of Prophet, But Angles and some other human beings were infallible; Hazrat Marryum (A) mother of Prophet Jesus(A) is a good example here. Moreover being infallible does not make a person, a Prophet. Prophets are only those are appointed by Allah had given this title as Prophet. Infalliblilty is one of the Khasa (particular characteristics; but not only for them). Prophets are not more than 1,24,000 and not less than 1,24,000. I am not going in to more detail under this topic here. Like not all the Prophets are Rasool, many Prophets sent for some specific area for some specific nation or tribe. etc etc. Prophets can have two titles at the same time. e.g. Nabuwat and Rasalat. etc. Similarly Prophets can have more than two titles at the same time, Nabuwat, Rasalat and Imamat. But this does not mean that all others who were just Imams; were/are Prophets also. This depends on the assignment of duty by Allah. Title of Nabuwat, Rasalat and Imamat are actually named by the duties assigned to them by Allah NOT by People. Which are different for each other? Not going in to more detail here neither required. Sometime People misunderstand duties and rights. It is their responsibility to perform their duties which are assigned by Allah and to believe in them and to love them as appreciation/admiration of their hard work in this life is not their duty, its our duty and their right. Their basic mission was to make people believe in God, the Almighty, but God stepped forward and made a faith for people to believe in them along with the belief in God. Allah consider it as incomplete belief if we don’t believe in them and just believe in Allah. Which is not acceptable faith by Him.
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If you like then we can have separate discussion on this….however like you said this is not the purpose of the discussion…..i just pointed out the difference between the two sects……have comletly different meanings when using the term…..
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bao bihari wrote: when we say imam mehdi ..we by no means ..have the same concept of imamat as shiaz....
Except the following three all other are common.
(1) Imam Mehdi will born sometime later
(2) Imam Mehdi is not infallible
(3) Imam Mehdi will be the descendents of Imam Hassan(A) instead of Imam Hussain(A)
These are the three basic difference among Shias and Sunnis; however
(1) There will be Imam Mehdi before the day of Doom; who will work for the Islam
(2) Imam Mehdi (A) will be appointed by Allah. No elections or Selection will be made.
(3) Islam will again be in power in his time; he will again purify it. (you can give anyother meaning too). In other words he will tell us the truth and remove misconceptions. and we consider him as more knowledgeable than us and more authority than us on people. He will be right by the fazal of Allah. (He will be a right-guided person by the grace of Allah). He will bring the true interpretations of Quran, and disregard all those false interpretations made by us(ummah). which are made by us using our own common sense and knowledge if they are against the teachings of True islam.
(4) Hazrat Isa (Prophet Jesus) (A) the son of Marryum (A) will come again from skies (his 2nd coming) for his support. Prophet Jesus (A) will pray behind him under his leadership.
(5) They will kill Dajal and Sufyani etc
The above are the common concepts among shias and sunnies.
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I agree.although I have never heared about sufyani …what/who is he?
First- plz bear in mind ..it is not personalities that we are discussing here…it is the concepts…..
Alhumdollilah we all agree on the concept of hadrat mehdi but why mentioning quran here….we are not discussing hadrat mehdi here……I repeat – we are here discussing the concept of imamat-as given in shia believes-viz, the concept that imams are hujjat on ALLAH and are true interprator of islam and are infalllible , and beliing in imamat is fardh( by what standard and rule?)and opposing the concept of imamat-as interprated by shia- is kuffar….aaima ki ghair mashroot itaat fardh hay …..aaima ko tahleel aur tahreem kay ikhtayar hain…….and so on …..and we are discussing that immamat being of such importance that all interpretations of quran and hadith must only be acceptable if given /authenticated by imam.
I hope this rather specific and short answer clarifies my position…….sorry for not giving a more detailed reply because of time shortage as usual…
May ALLAH TA;ALA show us all the true path and give us the wisdom to approach the truth with unbiasedness…
Ameen
*Until you answer the following questions I am putting every thing aside, as pending *
(1) Why you are hesitating to use the word Imam with Imam Mehdi (A)
Suppose you are in the times of Imam Mehdi and you are a true Sunni.
(1) Do you believe that Imam Mehdi (sunni way) is an imam.
(2) Do you believe in him as hujjat of ALLAH and
(3) Do you believe in him as true interpreter of Islam
(4) Do you believe in his infallibility
(5) Do you consider that believing in his Imamat is fardh
(6) Do you believe that it’s Fardh "Ghair mashroot Itaat of Imam Mehdi"?
*The concept of Imamat is not different from the concept of Imamat of Imam Mehdi in Islam *