Pillars of Islam (Split from Aqeedah thread)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[QUOTE]
Until you answer the following questions I am putting every thing aside, as pending

(1) Why you are hesitating to *you * the word imam with Imam Mehdi (A)
[/QUOTE]

May be you intended to use the word * use * here….For us meaning of imam is much diferent then what is in Shia belive….( as I have told u many times)
So just to make my point clear and to avoid any confusion I did not used the word imam with hadrat mehdi …

[QUOTE]
Suppose you are in the times of Imam Mehdi and you are a true Sunni.
[/QUOTE]

I just wish …..ALAH aap ki zaban mubarak karay ..inshallah

QUOTE Do you believe that Imam Mehdi (sunni way) is an imam.
[/QUOTE]

Yes according to sahih hadiths there will be a leader in last times….called mehdi…(muhammad bin abdullah )

QUOTE Do you believe in him as hujjat of ALLAH and
(3) Do you believe in him as true interpreter of Islam
[/QUOTE]

We are fortold about his qualities and are waiting for his arrival…he will be on right path ..will purify the religion …..

QUOTE Do you believe in his infallibility
[/QUOTE]

No…however as we are fortold about him as the choosen one…..he is maqbool

QUOTE Do you consider that believing in his Imamat is fardh
[/QUOTE]

Yes..imamat the sunni way….we belive him not due to his inheritence but because he is mentioned in hadiths and will be on right path …..so following him is following right path …

QUOTE Do you believe that it’s Fardh "Ghair mashroot Itaat of Imam Mehdi"?
[/QUOTE]

Yes ..as hadiths mentioned him on the right path …it is fardh …..

[QUOTE]
The concept of Imamat is not different from the concept of Imamat of Imam Mehdi in** Islam**
[/QUOTE]

Mashallah ….i think with islam u mean sunnis……

I don’t agree with u intuit…….it is very different ……I think if u had read my post u would have by now realised that…..

My be now we should carry on the original discussion……

22

Al-Aqeedah linguistically is derived from the term aqada. In Arabic, one states, "Aqada the rope" when the rope is tied firmly. And, "Aqada the sale" or "He settled the sale" when the person ratifies and contracts a sale or agreement. And Allah says in the Quran, "And as for those whom your right hands have made a covenant (Ar., aqadat)" [Al-Nisa 33]. And Allah also says, "But He will take you to task for the oaths which you swear in earnest (Ar., aqadtum) [Al-Maida, 89] which means asserted and adhered to, as proven in the verse, "And break not oaths after the assertion of them" [An-Nahl, 91]. If one says, "Aqadtu such and such," it means his heart is firm upon such and such.

Therefore, al-Aqeedah or al-itiqad according to the scholars of Islam is: The firm creed that one's heart is fixed upon without any wavering or doubt. It excludes any supposition, doubt or suspicion.

Imaamat is NOT an article of Faith for the mainstream Muslims. Neither is believing in Imaam Mehdi. There are 6 (or 7 depending on the phrasing) articles of belief: Belief in God and his Oneness - Belief in Angels - Belief in God's books (Bible, Quran, etc.) - Belief in God's Messengers - Belief in the day of resurrection - Belief in Qadar (i.e. every thing and event has been written). All of these are derived from explicit verses of Quran. The very reason that we cannot see THE BELIEF IN MAHDI being listed among the articles of belief of the mainstream Muslims is that this has not been commanded and explained and established in Quran in the same way that other articles of belief are established in Quran.

23

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
Yes ..as hadiths mentioned him on the right path …it is fardh …..

[/QUOTE]

[Quote]
*posted 01-19-2004 01:19 AM *

just to add ......sahbah are not masoom ...but they are mahfooz from khatta.......they will repent quickly if they do some thing bad.......
[/quote]

[quote]
* bao bihari wrote:No…however as we are fortold about him as the choosen one…..he is maqbool
/quote You used almost the same term for Sahabas **mahfooz* as you are using it now for Imam Mehdi (A) Maqbool. How do you differentiate the term Masoom, Mahfooz and Maqbool. Do you have any Quranic Ayat or any Hadith supporting your opinion? Same as Shias you are also liable to give reference in your support from Quran. I will appreciate if you describe their means also.

(8) What this quickly mean? How quickly? 1 day, 1 week, 1 month or 1 year. Any Quranic Verse in support, from which you are extracting these meanings.?

(9) If you say that to follow him (Imam Al-Mehdi(A)) is fardh all the time, after his declaration of imamat. Would you follow him even in that specific time frame in which he is doing mistake and repenting (correcting) his mistake (quickly). [Simple Question: Say fardh all the time OR Conditional]

(10) Do you think that you have such a wonderful quality that you would easily judge that the important personality who is appointed by Allah (as the chosen one) is under he process of (doing making mistake and repenting) and you should not follow him in that specific time. [Simple Question: do you have that quality to judge? Say Yes Or No]

(11) In order to judge a leader (or you check his mistakes) because you want to follow him, which is fardh on you. A person with less understanding and less capabilities can check mistakes of a person who is appointed by Allah (as the chosen one).

(12) What is the requirement of that Fardh on him who is being followed? I would appreciate if you have Quranic Ayat for each of it.
(a) is infallibility is not one of the requirement (leave this on shias)
(b) is Mafooz is not one of the requirement
(c) is Makbool is not one of the requirement
(e) Being Choosen one

(13) What makes a person a Chosen one? How would you know?

(14) What specific things stops you not accepting Imams of Shia?
(a) Not Chosen one
(b) they are not infallible
(c ) they are not Mafooz (your term)
(d) they are not Maqbool (your term)
(e) Quran does not say this explicitly

(15) What would you say if Imam Mehdi (sunni way) is not mentioned explicitly in Quran? Simple Question say : Yes/NO
(a) A chosen one
(b) A Mafooz or Maqbool (your terms)
(c) Following him is Fardh on your on conditional

(16) Just as a sideline note reference, you also take Imams (Leaders of Ummah) are different than common people (public). You said this under the topic of Taqqyah discussed somewhere in this forum. However date and time is mentioned below.

[quote]
* bao bihari wrote: Posted 01-24-2004 05:34 AM*

1-The ayahs u mentioned are about common person ..not the leader -imam of the ummah.......because in that case the islam will suffer where as in individuals case nothing will be lost ...so he is Allowed to say lie.......
[/quote]
What thing makes these leader – imams different from a common person.
(a) Infallibility
(b) Mafooz or Maqbool
(c) Responsibility; Being Chosen one
(d) Quran says this explicitly

(17) Do you believe that people/personalities other than Prophets can be infallible (as I gave you example of Hazrat Maryum(A)). [Simple Question: Say: I don’t believe people other Than Prophets can be infallible or Say yes; like Hazrat Maryum (A) or Angles]

These all questions look questions but actually these are not. Because your replies to my posts were not enough that is why I adapted this method to explain it this way to see your involvement in the topic and avoiding any skips & slips. However I appreciate your patience staying in the thread and having a long conversation on the same topic.

Wasalam,

24

Assalam o Alaikum
I am sorry for not replying early…..i kept the thread on my pending list ….and today read it…….
Khair ..now the discussion…

Intuit bhai…kabhi kabhi aap ki baat parh kay sar phornay ko dil chahta hay…. Ok here u go….
The terms are nearly same……both meaning that they repent quickly if they commit any mistake…..
Well quickly mean ..as soon as they realise that they have committed a mistake…..

It is just like any other khalifah-imam ( sunni imam) …if he commits mistake it is ur duty to tell him……
however this is a bit farfetched idea about hadrat mehdi and is not related to discussion…

Look above……

The mistake can be in dunyawi mamlaat..in that case there can be two opinions….

Bhai try to understand……for muslims imamt is not the core issue……..for u it is……as ur all jugements and interpretaions depend on imam………

Mentioned in ahdith….

All of the above..

Refer to answer to question 12……

The answer was mentioned in the thread……he is different because the awam/comoon ppl will act on his verdict ..that is why for him lying on religious issue is toataly haram……..no taqqiyah for religious leaders…….for others it is just halal on certain occasions ……….

After hadrat muhammad :saw: no one…….

Thank u

And just as side note……..
Sholay mentioned answered the issue very effectivly…

Part of his post were…

Hope we can have a comon opinion at the end…..

Wasalam

Bao Bihari

Now…can we get back to our main topic…plzz :slight_smile:

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Just as matter of interest since this thread relates to the 5 pillars in Islam (Ahlul Sunnah wa Jama’a), namely the following:

1) Witnessing-Shahadah, 2) Prayer-Salat 3) Charity-Zakah 4) Fasting-Sawm 5) Pilgrimage-Hajj

A question had been asked; Why these five? and their source?

I had posted the following [The Historic Sermon of Prophet Muhammad(SAW)] in an other thread and noticed that Rasool Allah (saw) had mentioned these five in that historic Khutbah.

*The Historic Sermon of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) *

*This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul-Hijjah 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' in Mecca.

After praising and thanking Allah the Prophet (saws) said: *

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore, listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today. O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you.

Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas Ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (the deceased prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived.

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

*O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to. *

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white - except by piety and good action.

Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before Allah and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."

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:bism:

Aslam-o-Alakum,

Dear brother bao bihari Sorry, I could nt find any sense in your answers. The answer I am reading does not show that some intellectual person has written this. Support your answer by proof from Quranic verses, Hadith, logic, even if you have nothing you can even use dictionary.

It is said:

  • If the explanation is the best available and is based upon facts and works, it proves the theory otherwise it remains an unproven assumed explanation or mere hypothetical explanation of a set of hypothesis or self evident facts. This is the reason the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. *

Be wise while quoting things. While asking questions it looks that you are quite an intelligent person. But sorry to say this quality does not depict in your answers. This is amusing. I’m very sorry brother but you need to look into your heart, and ask yourself, are you brainwashed, or are you honestly following the truth. Now listen again. I hope you will read each of my question and its sub section and comment on them appropriately.

It is also said:

  • Many a time we suggest each other, let us be logical but the question is, what is logic? Logic simply put is a statement, a thought, a fact, a step or a link with a definite place in sequence or combination of things that work as a set or unit that has a purpose to fulfil. In other words, logic is a mechanism whereby objects, thoughts or actions are interconnected so that they function properly in order to achieve a set out purpose or end product. If the end product is achieved the logic is sound otherwise not. *

Now come to the point we are discussing.

(7) So you agree that the words Mahfooz & Maqbool are nearly same; that is what I said “you used almost the same term” but your answer is not complete! Since these words themselves tells that these are different; so these words must have different meanings; even if there is a thin line. I am asking how do you differentiate these terms (Masoom, Mahfooz and Maqbool). Additionally you haven’t give any Quranic Ayat or any Hadith supporting your opinion.

(8) Although you elaborated the meaning of quickly so quickly :slight_smile: without any deep thought; moreover you havent yet provided me a pride to read that Ayat from which you are extracting these meaning. Despite the fact that there is no explicit ayat for the terminology you are using. You are mixing up two things in making the meaning of “quickly”. Here I am pointing you out both.

(A) At first as the reference is give below; you said “they will repent quickly if they do some thing bad”. This statement means WHENEVER THEY DO SOME ERROR; they will correct themselves right away.

Let me explain you with an example here;

Fahad steals Rs 10 from someone’s pocket at 10:00AM.
He felt sorry at 10:04am and gave the money back to it’s owner at 10:05AM. Suppose these 4 or 5 minutes are quick actions.

His total mistake time is 4 minutes, he took 1 minute to give that money back to its owner; I think, which would be excluded from the mistake time. As per your first meaning; because this time (4 minute is so short, it should not be noticeable as well as not questionable) that is why they are Mahfooz or Maqbool.

(B) Now this time you came up (in your latest post) with different meaning; as shown below; This statement means WHENEVER THEY REALIZE that they have committed a mistake, they will correct themselves right away.

Let me explain you with an example here;
Fahad steals Rs 10 from someone’s pocket at 10:00AM
He havent realized it for so long that he did make a mistake;
Suppose after 1 hour (at 11:00AM). He realized that he did mistake; he accepted the mistake right away (as soon as) at 11:00
He returned back the money to its owner at 11:01am.

This means he spent 1 hour in ignorance. He didnt even realize that he committed a mistake. As per your current meaning this 1 hour is not questionable because Fahad who made a mistake was ignorant during this time, it can be 10 years; it can be 10 minutes. Question will only be asked if he delays in giving the money back after realizing the mistake. That is why they are Mahfooz or Maqbool. Keep this 1 hour in your mind. I will ask you a question on it later.

See both cases are different. Since I have explained you both the meanings you did in two different times.
Now after these issues as above; I have a right to ask you questions from both.

(7-a) What if a person is doing all his wrong deeds knowingly and pretending you as a right person and telling you that he is the period of mistake in which he havent realized it yet. and you are satisfying yourself with the same concept being a true follower. Of course you will never follow him. (or whatever term you use, to close your eyes; some people say that they only follow Holy Prophet, they only follow Quran, Allah or so, some people Say they follow Quran, Prophet and right-guided Khalifas). I will write more on this topic following and recognizing later in this reply.

(7-b) From case A; Is it fardh on you to follow your imam during the time period of 4 minutes.
(7-c) From case B; Is it fardh on you to follow your ignorant imam during the time period 1 hour or so.
(7-d) However Rs 10 is a small amount that I used in example to make easy for you to understand the whole phenomena. Mistakes are mistakes; can be small, can be big. Who knows what will be the effect of that mistake. Now tell me Who will be responsible if something bad happen in that particular ignorance time. May be somebody kills 1000s of people? Because he has not yet realized that, its a mistake. For general public you can say it can be different but for imam or leader of Ummah it is really dangerous to take such actions in ignorance. Is it not as critical as you said? See below!

How we will discuss about Taqqiyah sometime later; because its not a topic of discussion now. But your statement proves that Responsibilities by Allah on Leaders/imams are different than general public. So they must be Masoom not your created terms Mafooz or Maqbool.

(7-e) How would you be informed that fahad is just ignorant and unaware of the errors OR he is committing that sin with complete awareness and with his full intensions? Can you see inside his heart? Or simply you will keep your eyes close and following him and list yourself also in his ignorance. That would be double fault; one following an unaware and sinner imam and while following and accompanying him in his sin. I think you haven’t heard that Hadith in your books about this act.

If I am not wrong; I heard that the way Sunnies believe in the infallibility of Prophets is different as the way Shia do. When a Shia talk about the infallibility of Prophets, Sunnies come with certain examples by which they mean that the Prophets were not fully infallible.

(7-f) If you are with them for whom created the terms Mafooz and Maqbool to protect them, then how would you differentiate this kind of infallibility of Prophets(A) with the terms you introduced for Sahabas and your Imam Mehdi in which they can repent quickly? If you are not able to differentiate then; allow me to say that you believe that Sahabas and your imam Mehdi is infallible same as the Prophets were. This is a very critical question for you to answer. Otherwise you must have to believe that prophets and imams were %100 infallible and Sahabas were not infallible and there is no such term to protect them as you innovated in religion.

(7-g) Do you agree that Haduud are applied on Zahir?

Since I asked you If you say that to follow him (Imam Al-Mehdi(A)) is fardh all the time, after his declaration of imamat. Would you follow him even in that specific time frame in which he is doing mistake and repenting (correcting) his mistake (quickly). [Simple Question: Say fardh all the time OR Conditional]. You gave me the following answer. I also wanted you to bring you at this point.

It means you have both the duties at the same time, to follow and to oppose him in case if he do mistakes.

Which I think possible only; if you are more knowledgeable person than him, that you can see inside his heart at least or understand the matter better than him.

If you say that you have to tell him only about those mistakes which are known to everybody. It means he is not even familiar to those things which are known to a common person in general public.

(7-h) Would he be able to become Khalifa/Imam of Ummah, with that level of knowledge?

Continue …

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If you say that its the duty of general public collectively, then you have to prove the authority of general public excluding Khlifa; from quran explicitly. However on the other hand we find lots of Aayat in Quran which goes against the opinion of general public. You must have to include Khalifa with general public to make a common decision; otherwise there would be no Ijmaah.

If there is a loose of community, society or human being collectively; then it would be more questionable than stealing just RS 10 which was a loose of a single person as I mentioned above.

(9-a) What are the minimum required qualities of a Sunni Imam? Should he be more knowledgeable person in the ummah ? Should he be more pious person in the ummah ?

I could not get you what you said in the following statement: please explain it more.

[quote]
bao bihari wrote
however this is a bit farfetched idea about hadrat mehdi and is not related to discussion…
[/quote]
(9-b) If you say that the topic we are discussing is not related to Imam Mehdi. tell me how?

Try not to make ambiguous statements; it will never harm you if you write things in clear and simple sentences. I could not guess for which “above” you are talking about. Although you have not written much in the paragraphs “above” even then its difficult to find the relevant answer of Question number 10 "above".

Unsatisfactory answer for Question 11. Since we are discussing things pertaining Deen and we believe that our Deen tells us everything about our life. There is no such kind of Dunyavi or Deeni definitions in the teachings of Islam; and the way Islam told us. The hadith of "Importance of seeking knowledge" best describes the meaning. Prophet said: "Seek knowledge even as far as China". Every thing which is ordered to do is your Deeny responsibility to do not the dunyavi.

As Anwaar Qureshi told earlier Muaamlaat, Akhalaaqiat, and Ibaadaat all three to construct the true image of Islam Muamalaat (mutual or business dealings), Moral System, and Prayers what else you need, nothing. So what is this Dunyavi. Actually you want to protect false people, whoever did bad in their life and whenever right-guided people of Allah opposed them in their bad deed, you protect them by saying that that was a Dunyavi Muammla, dont object on it.

For Question 12: Again; "Swal gundum - jawab chuna" The question which is asked; is different the answer you are providing. Please be precise and provide only that answer which is asked. other topics are being discussed in other places. if you have any objection you can raise there.

For Question 13: It means if Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) told us something about an Imam in Hadith; he is the chosen one. Is their anyother Sunni Imams who are chosen one. Since it is the one requirement for a person to be an Imam.

Continue ...

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(13-a) If the Chosen one is mentioned Hadith. What would you say about the following AHadith mentioned in Sunni books. Sorry the text is too long. But kya Karin. We are discussing on an important matter. I have made the same post in thread The Final Mujaddid (The Mahdi) & Allama Iqbal for which Brother Rehman1 commented as follows.

[quote]
Rehman1 wrote:
I am overwhelmed with Information.*

The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) informed that the number of Imams after him are twelve, as the compilers of Sihah and Masanid have narrated it.

*In Sahih of Muslim: *

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The [Islamic] religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having *twelve Caliphs * for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4483
Hadith #3398 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the *twelve men *, all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4478
Hadith #3394 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by *twelve Caliphs *." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1009, Tradition #4477
Hadith #3393 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been *twelve Caliphs *, all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4479
Hadith #3395 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been *twelve Caliphs *, all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4480
Hadith #3396 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant and protected until there have been *twelve Caliphs *, all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4481
Hadith #3397 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

*In Sunan of al-Tirmidhi: *

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "There will be after me *twelve Amir * (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."

Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic)
Chapter of Fitan,
2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)

Hadith #2149 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

*In Sunan of Abu Dawud: *

This religion remains standing until there are *twelve vicegerents * over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
2:421, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Hadith #3731 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

"The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been *twelve Caliphs *," So people said Takbir and made noise, then he said a light word I didn't hear. I [Jabir bin Samura] said to my father: What did he say? He said "All of them are from Quraysh."

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
2:421, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.
Hadith #3732 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

*In Sahih of al-Bukhari: *

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be *twelve commanders (Amir) *." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih al-Bukhari (English)
Hadith: 9.329, Kitabul Ahkam.

Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic)
4:165, Kitabul Ahkam.

Hadith #6682 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)
These traditions are also narrated in other sources [1].

*And in a tradition: *

Then the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) spoke a few words which I could not understand. Then I asked my father: "What did the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) say?" He said: "All of them are from the Quraysh." [2]

*And in another tradition: *

"The enmity of their enemies will not harm them." [3]

*And in another tradition: *

"This nation will always remain straight in its affairs, and triumphant against the enemies, till *twelve Caliphs * will be among them; all of them from Quraysh. Then there will be discord and confusion." [4]

*And in a tradition: *

"There will be *twelve upright Imams * for this nation. Those who try to disgrace them will not succeed; all of them shall be from the Quraysh."

"The affair of the people will continue as long as *twelve men * rule over them."

*And from Anas: *

"This religion will remain till *twelve Imams * from Quraysh (will pass), then when they expire the earth will swallow its inhabitants." [5]

*And in a tradition: *

"The affair of this nation will always be apparent till the *twelve Imams * will rise, all of them from the Quraysh." [6]

*Ahmad and Al-Hakim and others have narrated similarly from Masrooq who said: *

"We were sitting one evening with Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud). We were reciting the Qur'an, then a man asked him: "O Abu Abdur-Rahman, did you ask the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) how many Caliphs will rule this nation?" Abdullah said: "No one asked me about this before you from the time I arrived in Iraq." He said: "We asked him (the Prophet s.a.w.s.), he said: "*Twelve *, (like) the number of the Chiefs of Bani Israel." [7]

*And in a tradition: *

Ibn Mas'ud said: "The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said: "There will be Caliphs after me, whose number is like those of the companions of Musa." [8]

Ibn Kathir said: "And there is a similar narration from Abdullah bin 'Umar, Hudhayfah and Ibn 'Abbas. [9]

However, I have been unable to find this tradition of Ibn 'Abbas or others as reported by Al Hakim Al Haskani.

The traditions assert that the number of authorities are twelve and all of them are from Quraysh, and, Imam Ali (peace be upon him) clarified it in his speech that they shall be from the Quraysh when he said: "Surely Imams will be from the Quraysh, they have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs." [10]

And he said: "O Allah! Yes, but the earth is never devoid of those who maintain Allah's plea either openly and reputedly or, being afraid, and hidden in order that Allah's pleas and proofs should not be rebutted." [11]

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29

*Notes: *

  • [1]
    Muslim b. al-Hajjaj, Sahih, 3:1453, Tradition No. 1821, Kitabul Imarah.

    Al-Bukhari, Sahih, 4:165, Kitabul Ahkam.

    Al-Tirmidhi, Sunan, Chapter of Fitan, 2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)

    Abu Dawud, Sunan, 3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.

    Al-Tayalisi, Musnad, Tradition No. 767 and 1278.

    Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 5:86.

    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal 13:26-27.

    Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani, Hilyat al-'awliya' , 4:333.

    Jabir bin Samurah bin Junada was the nephew of Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas. He died at Kufa. The compilers of traditions have narrated 146 traditions from him. For his biography, refer to Usd al-Ghaba or Taqrib al-Tahdhib.

  • [2]
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:338.

    Al-Hakim al-Nisaburi, Mustadrak al-Sahihayn 3:167.

  • [3]
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:338.

  • [4]
    Muntakhab Kanz al-'Ummal 5:321.

    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:249.

    Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, Vol 10.

    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal ,13:26.

    Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa Vol 28.

  • [5]
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal , 13:27

  • [6]
    Ibid.

  • [7]
    Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 1:398 and 406.

    Al-Hakim al-Nisaburi, Mustadrak , 4:501

    Al-Dhahabi, Talkhis , 4:501.

    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:339.

    Ali b. Abu Bakr al-Haythami, Majma' al-Zawa'id 5:190.

    Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa, vol 12.

    Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, Vol 10.

    [Al-Suyuti or al-Tabarani], Jami' al-Saghir 1:75.

    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.

  • [8]

Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:248.

Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.

Al-Haskani , Shawahid al-Tanzil, 1:455, Tradition No. 626.

  • [9]
    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:248.

  • [10]
    Imam 'Ali b. Abi Talib [a], Nahjul Balagha, Sermon no. 142.

  • [11]
    Shaykh Sulayman Qanduzi al-Hanafi, Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, p. 523.

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30

For Question 14: You deny Shia Imams because they are not chosen one; They are not infallible; they are not Mafooz; they are not Maqbool and Quran did not say anything about them explicitly.

(14-a) So this is my question to you. Since you have a criteria that Hadith makes the person chosen one. As you said in the reply of question 13. Who are your imam about whom you can say they are chosen one through hadith. other than Imam Mahdi(A)

(14-b) Who are your imams about whom you can claim that They were/are Maqbool and Mafooz. About option b and e in question 14, since you dont believe in it; I wouldn’t ask you anything at this point of time.

For question 15: what do mean by this, please explain a little more. as you said ur all jugements and interpretaions depend on imam

I would ask you Question 16 again:

(16)What thing makes these leader – imams different from a common person.
(a) Infallibility
(b) Mafooz or Maqbool
(c) Responsibility; Being Chosen one
(d) Quran says this explicitly

For Question 17: Since i told you before that "Shia believe that infallibility is attached NOT ONLY with the Title of Prophet, But Angles and some other human beings were infallible; Hazrat Marryum (A) mother of Prophet Jesus(A) is a good example here. Moreover being infallible does not make a person, a Prophet. Prophets are only those **who* are appointed by Allah. He had given this title as Prophet. Infallibility is one of the Khasa (particular characteristics; but not only for them)." * So how can you say that After hadrat muhammad (PBUH) no one……. It means you agree with me that there were some who were infallible but those were not Prophets(A) before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) What proof do you have for After and before? I told that its not Khasa of Prophets; It the title Prophetwho makes them Prophets; There are other people who were infallible and those are not Prophets but they are infallible because they are Imams. For those about whom you think that they are Mahfooz or Maqbool we believe they are infallible.

Brother bao bihari! What Sholay is talking about is entirely different. He thought that its impossible to deny Shia concept of Imamat while talking with them about Imam Mahdi(A). That is why he denied the whole concept of Imam Mahdi(A) and tried to protect you to convert to shia faith. Same brother Ibn Sadique has done, he tried to re-cycle this thread and wants to make you more confuse. However I clarified him at the bottom.

How can you say that for Muslims Imamat is not the core issue? Muslim ummah is in problems and there is no unity because of not accepting a right-guided and God's appointed true Khlifa of Prophet who is Imam of Ummah. You can not even perform Jhihad without him for which you said there are 452 ayat in Quran. see what said earlier.

[quote]
bao bihari wrote
we dont have belive in imams as hujjat ..and your core belive is that they are hujjat
[/quote]
Let me explain you.

(18) What position or authority of Imam of ummah OR Khalifa of Prophet Muhmmad on you. What is the authority of leader of Ummah for the approval of offensive Jihad in your terms if he is not Hujjat. Please explain in view of your following saying.

[quote]
bao bihari wrote
Jihad normally being done today is defensive jihad...no need of approval from any muslim khilafah for that...
[/quote]
Means you can not perform Offensive Jihad without the prior permission of true Khalifa of Prophet (PBUH) who is the true Imam on Ummah.

Without doubt, this is the most important obligation (fard), for it is the Khilafah that is the only method for implementing the entirety of the laws of Islam. It is in the presence of the Khilafah that the laws of Islam are implemented and it is in its absence that they are suspended.

Individual action alone is not enough. The undertaking of this obligation revolves around a personality that have the ability to bear the burden of this responsibility.

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31

(19) If you Sunni believe that Abu Bakr was not the Imam-e-waqt of Ummah at that time; Then tell who was Imam e Waqt at that time to whom you must have to recognize. as you know about your Imam in Last times of the world. see bellow as you said:

It is reported also that the Holy Prophet said:
*“Whoever takes a rebellious stand (against a righteous Imam), and parts with the united community, then he dies, he would die a pre-Islamic death. And whoever fights blindly under a banner unknown to be a banner of truth, siding with a wrong party selfishly, then he is killed, he dies a pre-Islamic death. And whoever parts with my nation and carries a sword indiscriminately hitting its righteous and transgressor and refusing to fulfill a covenant he made, he is not from me and I am not from him”. *
Muslim, his Sahih, part 12, p. 239.

Another Hadith from Shahi Bukhari.
Vol 9, Book 88. Afflictions And The End Of The World. Hadith 206.
Narrated By Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman : He said, “Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler).” I said, “If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?” He said, “Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state.”

Another Hadith from Shahi Muslim.
Book 20. On Government. Hadith 4554.
It his been narrated through a different chain of transmitters, on the authority of Hudhaifa b. al-Yaman who said: Messenger of Allah, no doubt, we had an evil time (i.e. the days of Jahiliyya or ignorance) and God brought us a good time (i.e. Islamic period) through which we are now living Will there be a bad time after this good time? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes. I said: Will there be a good time after this bad time? He said: Yes. I said: Will there be a bad time after good time? He said: Yes. I said: How? Whereupon he said: There will be leaders who will not be led by my guidance and who will not adopt my ways? There will be among them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of human beings. I said: What should I do. Messenger of Allah, if I (happen) to live in that time? He replied: You will listen to the Amir and carry out his orders; even if your back is flogged and your wealth is snatched, you should listen and obey.

The Prophet of Islam, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, said: “Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the Jahiliyyah.”
Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, p. 96.

Same kind of aAHadith in Shia resources:

  • I heard Abu ‘Abd Allah (A) say, ‘one who would die without having an Imam his death would be like the death in ignorance (pre-islamic age of darkness).*
    Hadith 933, Chapter. 84, Hadith number 5 Kitab Al-Kafi translated by Muhammad Sarwar

As the importance of recognition of Imam is clear from both Shia and Sunni Hadith, you must have to tell otherwise you will be failed to place your life in islam. You cant simply say that you dont believe in it. I am not forcing you to believe in Shia Imams; but you must have your own at least. Not having such personalities on your side proves that Shia believe in Imamat and their Imams are true. Otherwise you must have to show them to prove our claim false. while doing this research also the see the listing of Sunni Imams in the books and also check where it stops and who were included in it that list and what were their personalities and character. siyad aa giya aupnay hi daman main

I am not talking on the first three; this is not my topic as well as yours. You said earlier *it is not personalities that we are discussing here…it is the concepts…..*To recognize them we must know the names of those personalities.

After knowing the importance of Imamat in Islam and denying it. If I see you eating good foods and living in homes in peace without following an Imam; it means you are not following the orders of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).

The reason for this is that during the Jahiliyyah pre-Islamic era of ignorance the people were polytheists; they knew nothing of either monotheism or of prophethood. This categorical declaration by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, shows the importance that he assigned to the Imamate, to the degree that if someone fails to place his spiritual life beneath the protective cover of a perfected ruler he is equivalent to one whose whole life was spent in the Jahiliyyah and then went unredeemed to his death. http://www.al-islam.org/leadership/

So try not to follow those devil-hearted leaders, find your true Imams who are your Amir and listen only to them.

Instead of reasoning baselessly that where are the names of those Imam in Quran explicitly; its your duty to recognize them. This is your test. (Imtahan). You are walking on Bridge of Doom (pul e Sarat) while finding them.

Dear brother Ibn Sadique! My question with Brother bao bihari that the pillars of Islam he is talking about is not the pillars of Islam as other sunni tells. There is no Jahad in Pillar of islam. He is counting number Aayat from quran as his proof, on the other hand the claim itself was not 100% correct.

You can see his post:

(a) My request is that the person who is asking question must have to read atleast his own stuff at first and must have certain degree/level of knowledge; although we cant gauge it, its upto him. Otherwise he should only have to ask for learning purpose not for refuting. After the completion of learning process; to give respect to the teacher; he must have to respect him and say “yes”, until he dont have any other question for more clarification. Rather than denying him and not accepting the mistake.

(b) The rule you, Brother Ibn Sadique made for the Pillars of Islam is not true. First read the rule as follows. You used the term core beliefs for the Ibaadaat which is not true; brother Anwaar Qureshi tried to clarify these terms in short.

Secondly these 5 pillars are not the ONLY things which are not compromise able; there are many others which comes under the same rule e.g jihad however its not a belief its is in Ibaadaat/aamaal even then if somebody deny jihad, I mean if he say “there is no more jihad in Islam” he would definitely out of Islam. Similarly a person will be out of Islam if he denies any one of those things which are in beliefs. So what makes the difference under the rule you defined.

Instead of confusing these terms and making lots of definitions in religion there is should be proper principle. Shia clarified these things in two classes one is beliefs and other is ibbaddat; called Usool e Deen and Frooh e Deen as you already know.

So the way bao bihari asked the question that way was wrong. His claim was on wrong bases.

***“Indeed, they rejected the truth when it came to them …” - 6:5

Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe. {7} Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft. {8} And We have made before them a barrier and a barrier behind them, then We have covered them over so that they do not see. {9} And it is alike to them whether you warn them or warn them not: they do not believe. {10} You can only warn him who follows the reminder and fears the Beneficent Allah in secret; so announce to him forgiveness and an honorable reward.
Quran Sura 36 - Ya-Seen***

Wasalam,

End of this Reply

32

Assalam o Alaikum
Intuit...
While i give answer to your loong list of questions can you please answer these questions for me...

It will make me better understand the issue and perhaps wil help me
get this thread back on track......

Now my questions are short ,specifc and to the point....and i would like answers to be precise, short and to the point with no if's and but's

These are my questions..
1-Do you belive that imamat is the most core issue of shia belief..

2-Do you belive that not beliving in the imamat concept( shia concept) makes one kaffir..yes or no

3-How do you think your 12th imam guide you in gheebat e kubra....as the main reason / justification for imamat is that there must be a imam
in each times.....now that we have no imam among us from some 1000 years on.....how do this hidden imam justify his existence as imam and how do he guide you...

ANy other person can also answer this question....

33

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
While i give answer to your loong list of questions can you please answer these questions for me...

[/QUOTE]
Aslam o Alakum Brother bao bihari!

Your Question: Pillars of Islam + Imamat from Quran explicitly
My Answer: I not only gave the answer to that question but also proved the method of your question wrong.

My Questions: Then I asked you certain questions (long list)
Your Answers: You simply give me short answers to show your entry and make a useless thread in the forum. Sir say utara.

My Answers to your Answers: In Urdu/Arabic they say: Jawab ul Jawab. In reply I gave a complete detailed explanation of my questions and your answers and I then explained it more with the proofs.

Now waiting for Your Answer: Now its your turn to give me answer and THEN ask questions rather than simply asking the three question as above without commenting on my answer that I wrote. However I can give answers to these questions most welcome. But I will not until you answer me; because this is not the way. Without knowing, what you have learnt from my answers I cant proceed. This was the simplest way i cant tell.

If you are doing this because of not having a proper understanding of method of written discussion, then no problem however if you are doing this intentionally. Then I would simply say; I understand these tricks which they often use upon clear defeat, however I am not here to win or to give defeat to anybody. I am here for Albalragh ul Mobeen, Amer bil Maroof & Nahi unil Munkar. Remaining thing is up to them; believe or not. Secondly I don’t claim to be an Alim either.

This is the method of written discussion followed by all Ullema and Scholars. try to understand this!

Better if you not spoil the discussion by inviting others to jump in. this is a split topic. Once it finish we will go back the main discussion thread from where it was split. Right.

Wasalam

inuit

34

Waalikum Assalam
I am really sorry if I don’t make sense in my replies….atleast as you see it…..the answer being I don’t want to use wordy expressions to twist the truth …I want to be more precise with my answer and am tryng my level best to keep the discussion on track…..First it took me ages to get you realise that we now have common intrepretation of the word PILLAR…(plz don’t start it all over again)..and now we are stuck here…….it seems a never ending list of questions before u can summ this up and relate this series of questions to the main topic in hand …….
Inshallah from now on I will try to give bit more detailed answers…..
Before I answer your questions ijust want to make it clear to you again that the meaning shia’s and sunni’s ascribe to IMMAM are very different……..
You belive imam as an infallible individual, having the authority to change the ahkams of deen… ** Refrence:** Attafweez ilal rasul allahay alihaysalam wa ilal aaima fi amar id deen ** Assol e kafi’s chapter….
For us imams have different meaning……They are just religious leaders……it is just given to nay person who is supposed to be mujtahid of his time…..like imam ghazali…..imam mehdi……imam abu hanifa …..
From this it is clear that as we don’t ascribe/attribute any extraordinary power to our imam or give him a status nearly equal to prophet :saw: we don’t have to use ** expilicit ** quranic ayahs to prove our point……
However as shown above that you attribute very important/critical status to your imams ….giving him the status to interpret all the religion for you…..even his words are used as hadiths like Anhz :saw: words….so they must be proved from quran ** explicitly **……

The difference between the two terms is the timing…Maqbool is the expression of the end result of their good deeds….meaning that according to hadith they are maqbool in dul allah
I have explained the the term mahfooz .
So just to make it more clear to you …….read the following statement..
“Sahbah and hadrat mehdi are both maqbool and mahfooz from khita…..”
Plz keep this in mind that I am here not trying to prove the sunni concept , I am just stating what the suni believe is ……if you want to discus the very basis of our believe plz feel free to open a new thread.

First see what the two posts were…
I stated this which alarmed you…

You in reply to my post asked me to elaborate the meaning of quickly……..
So I posted this..

I seriously don’t see any difference between the two….the other one is just exlanation of what was in my mind while I wrote the above statement…

35

[QUOTE]
Since I have explained you both the meanings you did in two different times.
Now after these issues as above; I have a right to ask you questions from both.
[/QUOTE]

And I have explained that they are not different….see ^

QOUTE What if a person is doing all his wrong deeds** knowingly and pretending you as a right person **and telling you that he is the period of mistake in which he havent realized it yet. and you are satisfying yourself with the same concept being a true follower. Of course you will never follow him. (or whatever term you use, to close your eyes; some people say that they only follow Holy Prophet, they only follow Quran, Allah or so, some people Say they follow Quran, Prophet and right- guided Khalifas). I will write more on this topic following and recognizing later in this reply
(7-b) From case A; Is it fardh on you to follow your imam during the time period of 4 minutes.
(7-c) From case B; Is it fardh on you to follow your ignorant imam during the time period 1 hour or so. .
[/QUOTE]

Kindly explain what do u mean…..

QUOTE However Rs 10 is a small amount that I used in example to make easy for you to understand the whole phenomena. Mistakes are mistakes; can be small, can be big. Who knows what will be the effect of that mistake. Now tell me Who will be responsible if something bad happen in that particular ignorance time. May be somebody kills 1000s of people? Because he has not yet realized that, its a mistake. For general public you can say it can be different but for imam or leader of Ummah it is really dangerous to take such actions in ignorance. Is it not as critical as you said? See below!

quote:

bao bihari wrote

he is different because the awam/common ppl will act on his verdict ..that is why for him lying on religious issue is toataly haram……..no taqqiyah for religious leaders…….for others it is just halal on certain occasions

How we will discuss about Taqqiyah sometime later; because its not a topic of discussion now. But your statement proves that Responsibilities by Allah on Leaders/imams are different than general public.** So they must be Masoom** not your created terms Mafooz or Maqbool.
[/Quote]

Why jump to conlusion too early….plz p[rove that imams should be masoom from quran…

Quote How would you be informed that fahad is just ignorant and unaware of the errors OR he is committing that sin with complete awareness and with his full intensions? Can you see inside his heart? Or simply you will keep your eyes close and following him and list yourself also in his ignorance. That would be double fault; one following an unaware and sinner imam and while following and accompanying him in his sin. I think you haven’t heard that Hadith in your books about this act.

If I am not wrong; I heard that the way Sunnies believe in the infallibility of Prophets is different as the way Shia do. When a Shia talk about the infallibility of Prophets, Sunnies come with certain examples by which they mean that the Prophets were not fully infallible.
[/Quote]

We are not discussing the isue of infallibility of prophets……not related to thios discussion..

Quote If you are with them for whom created the terms Mafooz and Maqbool to protect them, then how would you differentiate this kind of infallibility of Prophets(A) with the terms you introduced for Sahabas and your Imam Mehdi in which they can repent quickly? If you are not able to differentiate then; allow me to say that you believe that Sahabas and your imam Mehdi is infallible same as the Prophets were. This is a very critical question for you to answer. Otherwise you must have to believe that prophets and imams were %100 infallible and Sahabas were not infallible and there is no such term to protect them as you innovated in religion.
[/Quote]

Can u simplify the question…….like in 2-3 lines……with no confusion..

Quote Do you agree that Haduud are applied on Zahir?

Since I asked you If you say that to follow him (Imam Al-Mehdi(A)) is fardh all the time, after his declaration of imamat. Would you follow him even in that specific time frame in which he is doing mistake and repenting (correcting) his mistake (quickly). [Simple Question: Say fardh all the time OR Conditional]. You gave me the following answer. I also wanted you to bring you at this point.

quote:

bao bihari wrote

It is just like any other khalifah-imam ( sunni imam) …if he commits mistake it is ur duty to tell him……

It means you have both the duties at the same time, to follow and to oppose him in case if he do mistakes.

Which I think possible only; if you are more knowledgeable person than him, that you can see inside his heart at least or understand the matter better than him.

If you say that you have to tell him only about those mistakes which are known to everybody. It means he is not even familiar to those things which are known to a common person in general public.
[/Quote]

It is our belief that in duniyavi mamlaat the leader can make some mistake…….we don’t belive in infalibility of hadrat mehdi or sahbah …..quran and hadith justify their rightfull status …so no question arguing them….other leaders are neither massom nor mahfooz…….so no problems as predicted by u arise…..

Quote Would he be able to become Khalifa/Imam of Ummah, with that level of knowledge?

If you say that its the duty of general public collectively, then you have to prove the authority of general public excluding Khlifa; from quran explicitly. However on the other hand we find lots of Aayat in Quran which goes against the opinion of general public. You must have to include Khalifa with general public to make a common decision; otherwise there would be no Ijmaah.

If there is a loose of community, society or human being collectively; then it would be more questionable than stealing just RS 10 which was a loose of a single person as I mentioned above.
[/Quote]

Same as above….

Quote What are the minimum required qualities of a Sunni Imam? Should he be more knowledgeable person in the ummah ? Should he be more pious person in the ummah ?
[/Quote]

Not related issue……our concept of imamat is much different then urs and we are duscusiing ** ur concept ** of imamat not suuni’s………

[Quote]
I could not get you what you said in the following statement: please explain it more.

quote:

bao bihari wrote

however this is a bit farfetched idea about hadrat mehdi and is not related to discussion…

[/Quote]

36

It is not related because the meaning of imams are different in these sects…..and u r using hypothetical situation ….where as it is said in hadith that hadrat mehdi will be on haq..so why question….

And it will never harm saying what u belive in clear short sentences..rather then trying to divert the ongoing discussion……khair…
Bhai ..imam mehdi is a personality foretold in hadith…..where as we are discussing ** shia belief of imamat and their postion as hujjat etc ** much much different..i cant see any corelation between the two….

I posted this…

Read the bold part again….hint killing of banu quraidah ..more then one opinion of prophet:saw: …..and then hadrat umer’s :razi: opinion was selected..

Ur question was
(12) What is the requirement of that Fardh on him who is being followed? **I would appreciate if you have Quranic Ayat for each of it. **
(a) is infallibility is not one of the requirement (leave this on shias)
(b) is Mafooz is not one of the requirement
(c) is Makbool is not one of the requirement
(e) Being Choosen one

[/QUOTE]

And I posted

Can u relate the question and answer now..

Not explicitly mentioned by name..only hadrat mehdi is …

[QUOTE]
(13-a) If the Chosen one is mentioned Hadith. What would you say about the following AHadith mentioned in Sunni books. Sorry the text is too long. But kya Karin. We are discussing on an important matter. I have made the same post in thread The Final Mujaddid (The Mahdi) & Allama Iqbal for which Brother Rehman1 commented as follows.

I think brother ibn e siddq had satisfactorily answered this ….

Anyhow apart from numbers …..( keep in mind that some day mirzai’s might aswell say that they have twele caliphs and r mentioned nauzobillah in this hadith ) is there any mention of massomiat of these imams or the extraordinary powers they presumbly had ..?..in the above ahadith……how can u belive on a concept that was not even annonced/subscribed by your imams and u has to resort to taqiyyah to justify this…..

I think it is your belive that imams are the only interpretor of ahadith and quran and has the final say on these interpretations……..
I have also posted some of these belives abpove in this post …u must have gone through them by now…

These leaders-imams(sunni concept) are different because on their verdict common man will rely…..so –c- (partly-resonsibility only )choice of ur question is the best answer given these choices..…

It is the personalities that were told about…..hadrat maryam being one……however we are discussing about infallibility of imamat which is a term after the quran…ur question is related to discussion because yahi to baat ho rahi hay kay imamt kay concept aur in ki infalibility ka prove quran main kahan hay …** explicitly **

This was what brother sholay had posted..
Imaamat is NOT an article of Faith for the mainstream Muslims. Neither is believing in Imaam Mehdi. There are 6 (or 7 depending on the phrasing) articles of belief: Belief in God and his Oneness - Belief in Angels - Belief in God’s books (Bible, Quran, etc.) - Belief in God’s Messengers - Belief in the day of resurrection - Belief in Qadar (i.e. every thing and event has been written). All of these are derived from explicit verses of Quran. The very reason that we cannot see THE BELIEF IN MAHDI being listed among the articles of belief of the mainstream Muslims is that this has not been commanded and explained and established in Quran in the same way that other articles of belief are established in Quran
May be after concetrating on the bolded part it is evident that sholay was very much at the point ..and said the same thing I and brother ibn siddq were saying..what sholay is saying is that it is not the core belive of sunni’s that is why it is not mentioned in quran ** explicitly **

He also has supported the discussion with a very relvent point……sunni belive of core concept of islam is mentioned in the last sermon of hazoor pak :saw: and interestingly same concepts were also mentioned in hadith –e – jibrael ..when hadrat jibrael questioned hazor :saw: about core islamic belives..

[QUOTE]
How can you say that for Muslims Imamat is not the core issue? Muslim ummah is in problems and there is no unity because of not accepting a right-guided and God’s appointed true Khlifa of Prophet who is Imam of Ummah. You can not even perform Jhihad without him for which you said there are 452 ayat in Quran. see what said earlier.
quote:

bao bihari wrote
we dont have belive in imams as hujjat ..and your core belive is that they are hujjat

Let me explain you.

(18) What position or authority of Imam of ummah OR Khalifa of Prophet Muhmmad
These are the quickest reply i cann give..will elaborate on these pont later …if got time inshallah

37

on you. What is the authority of leader of Ummah for the approval of offensive Jihad in your terms if he is not Hujjat. Please explain in view of your following saying.
quote:

bao bihari wrote
Jihad normally being done today is defensive jihad…no need of approval from any muslim khilafah for that…

Means you can not perform Offensive Jihad without the prior permission of true Khalifa of Prophet (PBUH) who is the true Imam on Ummah.

Without doubt, this is the most important obligation (fard), for it is the Khilafah that is the only method for implementing the entirety of the laws of Islam. It is in the presence of the Khilafah that the laws of Islam are implemented and it is in its absence that they are suspended.

Individual action alone is not enough. The undertaking of this obligation revolves around a personality that have the ability to bear the burden of this responsibility.

[/QUOTE]

I like ur skills ….
Bhai imam aap ka hujjat hay qurann aur hadith ki interpetation main …….uss ki batain bhi hadith hain aap kay belive main ……

Jihad..qisais qitaal ul murtid to aik normal islamic state kay ahkam hain …it has nothing to do with the discussion……
ALLAh karay app kay sumjh main baat aa gae hoo..

meray bhai try to understand….
We belive that imam means leader ..we don’t attach extraordinary qualities with imam ……so accordingly we don’t have any one who is imam according to shia concept……our imam is khalifah …..and hadrat abu bakr :razi: was the first khalifah….and our imam ( sunni concept ) ..plz don’t get confused ..always keep this in mind that we both have different meaning to imam…

The imam mentoned here means khalifah ..or imam ( according to sunni belive)

We have personalities..no dearth of them……we don’t rule any sahbai out of islam because they do not fulfill our baseless criteria……

Nahi bhai ..hum aisay imamon per yaqeen nahin rakh saktay jo aona haq taq na lay sakain aur buzdilon ki tarah ghar baith jain aur taqiyah kar kay dushman kay sath mil jain…..we belive in hadrat ali hadrat husaain and all ahl e bait as true sunnis and our leaders…

I never asked about names…..aap say imamt ka concept quran say prove nahi ho raha …imamaon kay nam to baro door ki baat hain…

38

**Brother Inuit ** - Since you have addressed me here I’ll respond to these points only and let brother Bao Bihari carry on with this interesting debate with you.

**Brother Anwaar Qureshi ** had said: “The five pillars of Islam (refering to rituals including saying shahada by tongue!) as mentioned by brother Ibn Sadique are not enough.. because those are just pillar.. If only those pillars were the building of the Deen, then this building is only a “ruin” site with only pillars left… it needs Muaamlaat, Akhalaaqiat, and Ibaadaat all three to construct the true image of Islam

What brother **Anwaar Qureshi ** has mentioned is correct. His contention is that these are not the only beliefs of Islam.

It is true that there many other important items that a Muslim should believe in like Jihad etc.. And this does not mean that these are the only set of beliefs for the Muslims. When I used the words that “these are the core beliefs of the Muslims” I meant it so because of the following evidences.

The Prophet’s Last Sermon. You can read the complete version here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/lastsermon.html

** “O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.” **

Here the Prophet (saw) has advised us, all Muslims, to perform the following duties. Note that the Prophet (saw) has not mentioned Jihad.

Similarly you can read the following hadiths:

I used to sit with Ibn 'Abbas and he made me sit on his sitting place. He requested me to stay with him in order that he might give me a share from his property. So I stayed with him for two months. Once he told (me) that when the delegation of the tribe of 'Abdul Qais came to the Prophet, the Prophet asked them, “Who are the people (i.e. you)? (Or) who are the delegate?” They replied, “We are from the tribe of Rabi’a.” Then the Prophet said to them, “Welcome! O people (or O delegation of 'Abdul Qais)! Neither will you have disgrace nor will you regret.”

They said, “O Allah’s Apostle! We cannot come to you except in the sacred month and there is the infidel tribe of Mudar intervening between you and us. So please order us to do something good (religious deeds) so that we may inform our people whom we have left behind (at home), and that we may enter Paradise (by acting on them).”

Then they asked about drinks (what is legal and what is illegal). The Prophet ordered them to do four things and forbade them from four things. He ordered them to believe in Allah Alone and asked them, “Do you know what is meant by believing in Allah Alone?” They replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.” Thereupon the Prophet said, "It means:

*1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle.

  1. To offer prayers perfectly

  2. To pay the Zakat (obligatory charity)

  3. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.

  4. And to pay Al-Khumus (one fifth of the booty to be given in Allah’s Cause).

Then he forbade them four things, namely, Hantam, Dubba,’ Naqir Ann Muzaffat or Muqaiyar; (These were the names of pots in which Alcoholic drinks were prepared) (The Prophet mentioned the container of wine and he meant the wine itself). The Prophet further said (to them): “Memorize them (these instructions) and convey them to the people whom you have left behind.” Narrated Abu Jamra:

  • Volume 1, Book 2, Number 50: *

Allah’s Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles):

*1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle.
2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.
3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) .
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: - Volume 1, Book 2, Number 7: *

Note here that Prophet (saw) has specifically mentioned the quantity of **FIVE ** and did not mention Jihad.

You can see these at the following link: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html

If the Prophet (saw) says something on a matter, we take it and do not question him.

Imamate is only a Shia Concept.

To read about Articles of Faith - see the following link

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/intropillars.html

To 1) testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle. 2) To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. 3) To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) 4) To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) 5) To observe fast during the month of Ramadan are individual acts. In the first we have to have absolute belief and the later four requirements are to be done whatever the conditions of Muslims.

Importance of Jihad cannot be ignored, in fact some Fuquha even take it to be the sixth pillar of Islam! Jihad can only be undertaken when there is war. An individual cannot undertake Jihad himself. Jihad is applicable on those who can fight. Women are not required to join jihad on the front line though they can play the secondary role of support and logistics. Also that Imam Mahdi (ra) after having overcome all the adversaries will abolish war.

**Brother Inuit ** - In your first post on this thread you have questioned brother Bao Bihari about 5 Pillars of Islam that he had stated. You are under the impression that he has made a mistake.

The answer to you no, he has not made any mistake. What he has stated is true. He just wanted to impress upon the number of times the Quran has emphasized on 'each pillar of Islam. If you were to search for “pillars of Islam” on internet you will find exactly what brother Bao Bihari has stated. Try it for yourself on Google.

39

Assalam o Alaikum
Brother intuit …I had forwarded your loong list of questions to a friend of mine…..
I have received his answers…..though regardless of my pleas he don’t want to get himself registered on GS….so he has written this answers on my behalf……
I am posting this reply courtesy of my dearest friend…….
Jazakallah brother for sparing time and answering these questions …..and I hope some day we will convince u to start posting here aswell …
So here goes his reply…

[QUOTE]
Aslam-o-Alakum,

Dear brother bao bihari Sorry, I could nt find any sense in your answers. The answer I am reading does not show that some intellectual person has written this. Support your answer by proof from Quranic verses, Hadith, logic, even if you have nothing you can even use dictionary.

It is said:

If the explanation is the best available and is based upon facts and works, it proves the theory otherwise it remains an unproven assumed explanation or mere hypothetical explanation of a set of hypothesis or self evident facts. This is the reason the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Be wise while quoting things. While asking questions it looks that you are quite an intelligent person. But sorry to say this quality does not depict in your answers. This is amusing. I'm very sorry brother but you need to look into your heart, and ask yourself, are you brainwashed, or are you honestly following the truth. Now listen again. I hope you will read each of my question and its sub section and comment on them appropriately.

It is also said:

Many a time we suggest each other, let us be logical but the question is, what is logic? Logic simply put is a statement, a thought, a fact, a step or a link with a definite place in sequence or combination of things that work as a set or unit that has a purpose to fulfil. In other words, logic is a mechanism whereby objects, thoughts or actions are interconnected so that they function properly in order to achieve a set out purpose or end product. If the end product is achieved the logic is sound otherwise not.

[/QUOTE]

You seem to be mixing too many things up.  Why don’t you settle one issue at a time.

[QUOTE]
Now come to the point we are discussing.

(7) So you agree that the words Mahfooz & Maqbool are nearly same; that is what I said "you used almost the same term" but your answer is not complete! Since these words themselves tells that these are different; so these words must have different meanings; even if there is a thin line. I am asking how do you differentiate these terms (Masoom, Mahfooz and Maqbool). Additionally you haven’t give any Quranic Ayat or any Hadith supporting your opinion.

(8) Although you elaborated the meaning of quickly so quickly without any deep thought; moreover you havent yet provided me a pride to read that Ayat from which you are extracting these meaning. Despite the fact that there is no explicit ayat for the terminology you are using. You are mixing up two things in making the meaning of "quickly". Here I am pointing you out both.

(A) At first as the reference is give below; you said "they will repent quickly if they do some thing bad". This statement means WHENEVER THEY DO SOME ERROR; they will correct themselves right away.
quote:

posted 01-19-2004 01:19 AM
just to add ......sahbah are not masoom ...but they are mahfooz from khatta.......they will repent quickly if they do some thing bad.......

Let me explain you with an example here;

Fahad steals Rs 10 from someone's pocket at 10:00AM.
He felt sorry at 10:04am and gave the money back to it's owner at 10:05AM. Suppose these 4 or 5 minutes are quick actions.

His total mistake time is 4 minutes, he took 1 minute to give that money back to its owner; I think, which would be excluded from the mistake time. As per your first meaning; because this time (4 minute is so short, it should not be noticeable as well as not questionable) that is why they are Mahfooz or Maqbool.

(B) Now this time you came up (in your latest post) with different meaning; as shown below; This statement means WHENEVER THEY REALIZE that they have committed a mistake, they will correct themselves right away.

Let me explain you with an example here;
Fahad steals Rs 10 from someone’s pocket at 10:00AM
He havent realized it for so long that he did make a mistake;
Suppose after 1 hour (at 11:00AM). He realized that he did mistake; he accepted the mistake right away (as soon as) at 11:00
He returned back the money to its owner at 11:01am.

This means he spent 1 hour in ignorance. He didnt even realize that he committed a mistake. As per your current meaning this 1 hour is not questionable because Fahad who made a mistake was ignorant during this time, it can be 10 years; it can be 10 minutes. Question will only be asked if he delays in giving the money back after realizing the mistake. That is why they are Mahfooz or Maqbool. Keep this 1 hour in your mind. I will ask you a question on it later.
quote:

bao bihari wrote
as soon as they realise that they have committed a mistake…..

See both cases are different. Since I have explained you both the meanings you did in two different times.
Now after these issues as above; I have a right to ask you questions from both.

(7-a) What if a person is doing all his wrong deeds knowingly and pretending you as a right person and telling you that he is the period of mistake in which he havent realized it yet. and you are satisfying yourself with the same concept being a true follower. Of course you will never follow him. (or whatever term you use, to close your eyes; some people say that they only follow Holy Prophet, they only follow Quran, Allah or so, some people Say they follow Quran, Prophet and right-guided Khalifas). I will write more on this topic following and recognizing later in this reply.
[/QUOTE]

40

QUOTE From case A; Is it fardh on you to follow your imam during the time period of 4 minutes.
(7-c) From case B; Is it fardh on you to follow your ignorant imam during the time period 1 hour or so.
(7-d) However Rs 10 is a small amount that I used in example to make easy for you to understand the whole phenomena. Mistakes are mistakes; can be small, can be big. Who knows what will be the effect of that mistake. Now tell me Who will be responsible if something bad happen in that particular ignorance time. May be somebody kills 1000s of people? Because he has not yet realized that, its a mistake. For general public you can say it can be different but for imam or leader of Ummah it is really dangerous to take such actions in ignorance. Is it not as critical as you said? See below!
quote:

bao bihari wrote
he is different because the awam/comoon ppl will act on his verdict ..that is why for him lying on religious issue is toataly haram……..no taqqiyah for religious leaders…….for others it is just halal on certain occasions

How we will discuss about Taqqiyah sometime later; because its not a topic of discussion now. But your statement proves that Responsibilities by Allah on Leaders/imams are different than general public. So they must be Masoom not your created terms Mafooz or Maqbool.

(7-e) How would you be informed that fahad is just ignorant and unaware of the errors OR he is committing that sin with complete awareness and with his full intensions? Can you see inside his heart? Or simply you will keep your eyes close and following him and list yourself also in his ignorance. That would be double fault; one following an unaware and sinner imam and while following and accompanying him in his sin. I think you haven’t heard that Hadith in your books about this act.

If I am not wrong; I heard that the way Sunnies believe in the infallibility of Prophets is different as the way Shia do. When a Shia talk about the infallibility of Prophets, Sunnies come with certain examples by which they mean that the Prophets were not fully infallible.

(7-f) If you are with them for whom created the terms Mafooz and Maqbool to protect them, then how would you differentiate this kind of infallibility of Prophets(A) with the terms you introduced for Sahabas and your Imam Mehdi in which they can repent quickly? If you are not able to differentiate then; allow me to say that you believe that Sahabas and your imam Mehdi is infallible same as the Prophets were. This is a very critical question for you to answer. Otherwise you must have to believe that prophets and imams were %100 infallible and Sahabas were not infallible and there is no such term to protect them as you innovated in religion.
[/QUOTE]

To All your above questions. Human beings are not infallible. To err is Human. We, Sunnis do not take Sahabahs (raa) to be infallibles, being humans they can make mistakes. There is a big difference in making a mistake or and error in Judgment than to be a Rebellious person.
[Angels are infallibles because unlike Humans and Jinn they do not have free will. They do as they are commanded - they have absolutely no choice in the matter.]
Unlike Shias, Sunnis believe that only Allah (swt) alone enjoys Absolute Infallibility. * They take the Prophets (asa) to be infallible in delivering the message. They furthermore believe that Prophets cannot commit a sin as they have protection from Allah (swt), but as they are Human beings – they can lapse in their humanly affairs. The Arabic word for this is zalla, - meaning ‘error’ or ‘lapse’. This in no way expresses any notion of Sin or Act of Rebellion against the Commands of Allah (swt).

There are many ayahs in the Quran where Allah (swt) has praised the Sahabah (raa) many times. The one below would suffice:
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward." (48:29)
Suffice it to give Imam Malik's explanation of this verse: Abu Urwa al-Zubayri narrated: We were with Malik ibn Anas when they mentioned a certain man who would find fault with the Companions of the Messenger of Allah. When he heard this, Malik recited the verse: "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him. . ." until he reached the words "delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them." (48:29) Then Malik said: "Whoever among the people has become one who harbors spite towards any one of the Prophet's Companions, this verse has hit him."
and the following Hadith:
Uwaym ibn Saida narrated that the Prophet said: "Allah has chosen me, and He has chosen my Companions for me. He has made some of them my deputies, my sons-in-law, and my fathers-in-law. Anyone who curses them has the curse of Allah on him, and of the angels, and of all people. Allah will not accept any exchange nor compensation from him"
The Prophet also said in the hadith from Jabir: "Allah chose my Companions over everything else in existence except for the Prophets and the Messengers. He chose four of them for me; Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman and 'Ali. He made them my best Companions, and all of my Companions are good."

The Prophet also said about the Ansar: "The Ansar! None loves them except a believer, and none hates them except a hypocrite. Whoever loves them, Allah loves him; and whoever hates them, Allah hates him."
You seem to say that if some one made a mistake then there is not forgiveness for repentance! See the following hadith regarding repentance.
Allah's Apostle (saw) said: He who seeks repentance (from the Lord) before the rising of the sun from the west (before the Day of Resurrection), Allah turns to him with Mercy. - Muslim
The Prophet (saw) said: "Allah accepts the repentance of a man so long as he is not at the point of death" - Transmitted by Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah (Mishkat)
Allah's Apostle (saw) said, "Allah is more pleased with the repentance of His slave than anyone of you is pleased with finding his camel which he had lost in the desert." Transmitted by Sahih Bukhari
We always keep the following hadith in mind when the Companions of Rasool Allah (saw) are mentioned:
"None of you should come to me with anything (negative) about any of my Companions for I do not want to go out to you except except with a clear heart." (Abu Dawud and al-Tirmidhi from Ibn Mas`ud)
"Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Companions! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish." - Narrated by Ahmad, al-Tirmidhi, and others.
We, Sunnis, take Imam Mahdi (ra) as rightly guided, we use the same terms for the first four Khalifs - Khalifatul Rashideen Rightly Guided Khalifahs].
Prophet Muhammad (saaw) said: "There will be Nabuwa with Rehma (prophethood with Mercy). The there will be Khilafah with Ba’yah (pledge). Then Allah will change it when He wishes. Then there will be Mulkan ‘Adoodan (Rule by force). Then Allah will change it when He wishes. Then there will be Mulkan Jabriya (against people’s will). Then Allah will change it when He wishes. Then there will be Khilafah Ala Minhajin Nabuwa (on the path of prophethood). The earth and the sky will bestow their treasures." (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal)*