Just spare some time to read about the relationship between Hazart Abu Bakr & Hazrat Ali before the death of Hazrat Mohammad PBUH and during the Khilafat of Hazrat Abu Bakr, you will be a new man.
Well said 2Pak!
Readers - Pls allow me to make a few comments. First, I agree with faceup that the behaviour & speech of Hajrat Umar when the Prophet lay dying was a major insult to our beloved prophet(pbuh).
Second, Hazrat Ali was the rightful successor & Viceregent(Imam)to guide mankind and be the sole interpreter of Quran and Sunnah.
Third, I agree with you 2Pak when you say that,
"what the Shiites say regarding this issue is right, because it has been established that the Sunnis have the text which proves the succession of Ali to the caliphate, but they deliberately misinterpret it to maintain the Companion's honour."
So, dear readers, who's a Rafisi and who's a Muslim ?
Finally, to become a Universal religion, Islam will have to imbibe & extol Compassion & Tolerance, the traits sorely missing, even amongst muslims themselves. Until that happens, Islam will be 'Mullaism' and nothing more.
Reports of Immediate Bay'a from Ali (R) and Sa'd Ibnu Ubada (R)
There are many evidences which show that Ali gave the bay'ah to Abu Bakr immediately. When Abu Bakr got the bay'ah from the people Ali was at his house, he
was told that the people are giving the bay'ah to Abu Bakr in the mosque (the second day after the saqifah), upon that Ali left his place without Izar (waist sheet) and
Rida' (cloak) in order not to be late in giving the bay'ah. (see Al-Bay'ah Fi Al-Fikr Al-Siasi Al-Islami, Mahmoud AL-Khaldi page 58, he cited Al-Kamel Fi
Al-Tareekh, Ibnu AL-Atheer, vol. 2, page 325 and 447, and Al-Seerah Al-Halabiah, vol. 2, page 485).
In another incident Ali said that the people after the death of the Prophet choose the best person. When Ali was stabbed the people asked him to appoint a successor
he said: The Prophet (pbuh) himself did not appoint a successor so I would not do it. But if Allah wants good for the people he will unite them after me on the best
person among them as he did when he united them on the best person after the death of the Prophet (pbuh), (he means Abu Bakr). (see Tareekh Al-Khulafa',
Al-Sauti, page 7).
In the battle of Jaml, Ali said: O people, the Prophet (pbuh) did not give us any clue of who should be his successor as an Amir, and we chose to appoint Abu Bakr.
(see Tarikh Al- Islam, Al-Thahabi, vol. 1, page 328, 329 and Majma' Al-Zawa'id, Al-Haithami, vol. 5, page 175).
Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya:
I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Allah's Apostle ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was
afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.
Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas:
While I was standing amongst the people who were invoking Allah for Umar bin Al-Khattab who was lying (dead) on his bed, a man behind me rested his elbows
on my shoulder and said, "(O 'Umar!) May Allah bestow His Mercy on you. I always hoped that Allah will keep you with your two companions, for I often heard
Allah's Apostle saying, "I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar were (somewhere). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar did (something). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar set out.' So I hoped that Allah
will keep you with both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was Ali bin Abi Talib.
Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas:
When (the dead body of) 'Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away,
and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was 'Ali bin Abi Talib. 'Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for 'Umar
and said, "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always
thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu
Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went out."'
Another point of importance here, would people like Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman who received many complements from Allah and the Prophet commit such a big
sin by disobeying Allah and take the right of Ali which was given to him by Allah. The answer by anyone who takes Quran and Sunnah as the base for his/her
thinking is NO. It is very clear that Ali was not appointed by the Prophet as a Khalif otherwise the Sahabah would obey and Ali would not give bay'ah to the Khalifs.
He gave the bay'ah to Abu Bakr after six months and he gave the bay'ah to Umar and Uthamn immediately. After the death of Uthman, Ali said to the Muslims try to
find someone else as a Khalif, I am better as a minister than an Amir. Would someone believe he was appointed by Allah as a Khalif ask the Muslims to give bay'ah
to someone else and disobey Allah?
The problem with Juadism and christianity is that the people amended the books of Allah and moulded them according to their needs. Thats why Quran was Revealed to Propher Muhammad SWT, security of which had been promised by Allah that no one in this world will be able to amend Quran. But the stage came to explain it and different scholars explained it in different ways, and these shia sunnis and wahabis came into being reading and following those explanations of Quran.
Now you all gonna call me a kafir ... but I dont mind if u do. I dont believe in any Hadith and any explanation of Quran, I only believe in Quran. As I have already told people that I speak and understand Arabic so its a bit easy for me to understand Quran and I dont need the translation much. Aha-diths and explanations of Quran are created by humans and human always does mistakes and on top of it what was said by the scholar might have been moulded or changed according to the needs. If u read a hadith the authenticity of Hadith is justified as,
Its been told from one to his son to his son and to his fellow and to his son and then written by Sahih Muslim, now the gap is of sometimes five to seven generation, can any of you tell me would the words be same as Propher said, I DONT THINK SO. I can explain it, Suppose in Urdu u say,
Roko matt janay do.
there are two people who are listening to you. One takes it as
Roko, matt janay do. (Stop him, dont let him go)
The other one takes it as
Roko matt, janay do (Dont stop him, let him go).
Can u tell me what the person (supposedly you) meant to ordered the command??????
Same is the case with Hadith, prophet might have meant something else and when the hadith was written after 70 years I dont think it can be in pure form. Same is with the scholars definitions .... unless he himself wrote his books and explains clearly what he meant. Read Abu-Ala-Maudi's Tafhim-ul-Quran, that guys explains quran and sometimes you will see his explanation differs some Hadith. He is the only guy whoes book can be taken into Saudi Arabia without being checked (rest of the books are taken by the immigration and are checked and given to the entrant at later date or when he leaves KSA). But I am not saying he is right at all aspects of religion ... he might not be.
So if u are talking about Shia-ism or Sunni-ism I dont believe in any of them, but it hurts when someone says ... that Hazrat Umar said, dont give ink and paper to Prophet SWT ..... because its definately not true and seems clearly fabricated (again the words of a human).
Faceup writes:
"Shias, Why instigate a debate when you are not clear in your minds & heart what the 'Imam' truly is. I am yet to find Shias clearly state that the Imams are appointed by divine authority of Allah, are pure & infallible; There is no need for 'Taqiya' in the West."
Faceup, good observation. I'll try to change that perception for you. Yes, Shias need to re-invigorate their faith, emphasize unity amongst all shias and always remember that:
Hazrat Ali and his descendents(Pbuh&hf) were the rightful successor to our beloved Prophet(pbuh&hf)as Viceregent(Imam) of Islam to guide the faithful and be the sole interpretor of the Quran & the Hadiths.
Moreover, this appointment was thru divine authority of Allah and the Imams are infallible and pure.
Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice."
Congratulations go out to the Shias, they handled their part of the debate with integrity.
The Sunnis, were unable to refute the evidence re: betrayal of the holy Prophet (pbuh); rather, they chose to villify & condemn the shia beliefs. This, alone, speaks volumes.
its an interesting book.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
[This message has been edited by Cool Guy (edited November 27, 2000).]
How does one convert to shiaism?
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*Priest-OF- Painful Truth*----
[quote]
Originally posted by Asadullah:
Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice."
[/quote]
Interesting information.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Asadullah:
Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice."
[/quote]
Interesting information.
**
[/QUOTE]
La Hola willa quwwat..ahmed u are out of ur senses buddy...do not make up false information..its not good at all buddy
Sherazz you are the one out of your senses here buddy as I did not put up this information.Someone else did.I just said it was interesting.Is it true or false?I don't know but I know one thing and that is that I cannot depend on you to tell me.
Dunno…
Anyone???
The reason I am asking is that I have this friend since college, whose mother is a shia and whose father is sunni. The boy was raised as a shia since childhood. When he was in school he had an operation for appendicitus and, after this operation his father converted him to sunni, and this guy is a sunni ever since.
Now I am wondering how does one switch back and forth?
pristine i dont think u convert from shia to sunni or sunni to shia..we use the convert word when somone changes the religion..for example from cristian to muslim..shia sunni basically differ on one big thing..wether u wanna be with Zalim or Mazloom..sunni do not find them to be Zalim and we do
"Prayer is a shield for the believer. When you knock on the door repeatedly it is sure to be opened for you. - Imam Ali (as)"
[This message has been edited by Sherazz (edited November 26, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by 2PaK:
Islam is a universal religion? What planet are you living on? If Islam was a universal religion you the Sunnis would not bow down to the west in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. At least Iran doesn't give a damn about the west. If Islam was a universal religion we would not be fighting each other and we would be a superpower insted of the USA. The sunnis are the most RASCIST sect of Islam who don't know anything about Islam or their own philosophers. Allama Iqbal has nothing to do with this discussion and no one cares what he says.
[/quote]
Is it the same Iran where 'shah of iran' was a lap dog of United states.
The rulers may decide whatever as it suites them- but it does not mean the people beleive in the same thing.
Unfortunately both in Iran and Saudi Arabia there is no freedom of speech. something espoused within Islam itself.
[This message has been edited by blackzero (edited November 26, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by blackzero:
**
Is it the same Iran where 'shah of iran' was a lap dog of United states.
The rulers may decide whatever as it suites them- but it does not mean the people beleive in the same thing.
Unfortunately both in Iran and Saudi Arabia there is no freedom of speech. something espoused within Islam itself.
[This message has been edited by blackzero (edited November 26, 2000).]**
[/quote]
blackzero what world r u living in buddy? Imam Khomeni kicked him out a long time ago and Iran doesnt give a damn bout the US and its policies
"Prayer is a shield for the believer. When you knock on the door repeatedly it is sure to be opened for you. - Imam Ali (as)"
Trust sherazz never to get the point.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/bukbuk.gif
V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*Priest-OF- Painful Truth*----
[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
Trust sherazz never to get the point.
[/quote]
ahmed dear its u who needs to get the point..ever notice its always the scholers or devoted muslims who become shia..just think about it why..why..why
"Prayer is a shield for the believer. When you knock on the door repeatedly it is sure to be opened for you. - Imam Ali (as)"
"..Say (O' Muhammad unto mankind): I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my relatives(Ahlul-Bayt)"Holy Quran(42:23)
(after his last pilgrimage) the Holy Prophet (saw) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Ghadir Khum & said,"I am leaving for you 2 precious things.First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light & guidance...
The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt.
I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt.(3 times)Sahih Muslim,Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of Ali,1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version,v4,p1873,Tradition #36.
Then the Prophet held up the hand of Ali and said:"Whoever I am his leader,Ali
is his leader.O God,love those who love him,& be hostile to those who are hostile to him."(Sunni hadith:
Sahih Tirmidhi,v2,p298)
The Prophet said to Ali:"Glad tiding O Ali!Verily you & your companions & your Shia followers will be in Paradise."Sunni hadith:Hilyatul Awliyaa,v4,p3