MTANWEER.......>>we Ahmadiys do not believe in end of prophethood.<<
I rest my case. Here is a verse for you. This is Iqbal
teri kam ilmi nay rakh li hay bay ilmoun ki laaj
aalam faazal baich rahay hain apna deen Iman!!
This is a Islam folder, and not plateform to preach your jahalat. Get it???
PLease keep the debate tothe issues at hand... Could people refrain from abusing and accusing each other. Also though cut and paste is a most efficient way of putting a lot of material in a thread, i would suggest that people who really have something to say, type it out themselves, in thier own words. as that is more likely to show up what each person belives in.
Thank you.
Baykhatr....two things. One. Our personal faith is all that we are responsible for. We have a duty to spread the true word of Islam, but too often we get carried away after responses like you have seen on this forum. What we fail to realize is that its all sticks and stones. We have a difference of faith. What mirzais and shias believe is their business. Yes, it is extremely deviatory, but then again, so are so many other religions. Christians do even worse while associating a son with God. So at a time like this, the best we can do is practice our own faith to the best of our ability, and hope that we can teach by actions.
Two.Prophet Muhammad SAW said that learn to differentiate between people. There are people with whom you talk, and they will listen, and understand your point of view while presenting theirs. And there are people who will interject in everything you say and speak their own. For the people of the second kind, he advised not to waste time with, since it only serves to weaken ur own faith.
Dear Akif!
I agree with most of what you said. I am not here to 'hunter' others down. People believe many wierd thing. The problem lies when deviatory faiths, like mirzais expect us to address them as Muslims. Christian do not ask you to call them Muslims, nor do Bihais expect us to address them as Muslims. It is Mirzais only who very stubornly insists that all those who do not believe in the so called Prophethood of their 'whatever' (I dont want to write his name, as I am fasting right now) are infidels. See NYA's post in other folder.
I have no problem with whatever one may wishes to believe, but if one wishes to be called a Muslim, there are some basic guidelines for it.
Asif, Only Allah knows who is right and who is wrong, so lets seek the right path from Allah. Path of those peoples who were rewarded, not the path of those peoples who were rejected. Look at the examples of Jews of Israel, they are going to that Wall where Messiah suppose to come and bang their heads on that wall. They were arrogant and because of that they were not able to recognized Messiah and Hazoot SAW. Thats why my solution to this problem is simple, pray to Allah and request for guidence, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I guess that why we were told to recite Surrah Fatiha in every Namaz which is reminder that we can only get the guidence from him.
LOVE FOR ALL HATERED FOR NONE
GOD BLESS YOU
If sunnis only read their books, they would discover that they are not many differences between the Shias and sunnis.
Salaam brother Akif
<<Debates only serve the purpose of creating doubts in the minds of the third person, not the people involved in the debate, because for the most part, the debators dont know squat about what they are talking.>>
I don't want to be rude or mean but I think all this time in the forum you have been debating too, so does it mean you are try to create doubts in the mind of other people who are trying to seek guidance by reading other people views and throught other books, does it also mean you dont know squat what are you talking about.
<<even shias have been declared munkirs by a lot of scholars>>
What makes shias munkir, Is it because they believe in the same Prophet you people do, or is it because they read the same Quran you people do, or they fast as you do, or is it because unlike sunnis, they obeyed to what Holy Prophet said at Gadeer-e-khum and made Hazrat Ali their first Imam, rather then following the people who choose khaleefa for themselves, and tortured the beloved daughter of Holy prophet and threatened Hazrat Ali to pay allegiance to him, what makes them kafir, I think the scholars who were debating if shia's are kafir didn't know squat of what they were talking about, and like you said, they probably declared such thing too create doubts in the mind of the third people, who is interested in shiaism. Sorry if I do sound rude, but those were some really rude comments you made, I think if there is something that you can't debate on because you have nothing to prove your beliefs, you shouldn't say the debate over the thing is meanigless, i think its better to explore more to seek the right path of guidance. I was talking about Firqa Jafferia here.
Ramesha would you like to share, what beliefs made your family to convert to shiasm.
May Allah guide us to the right path and help us live the life in an islamic way.
[This message has been edited by Muslim (edited December 22, 1999).]
If only you had bothered reading my posts in their entirety, you would know that i wasnt debating or trying to present my opinion on any religious aspect of things. I was stating the fact that TO EACH HIS OWN. A belief is a personal thing, and if u have to argue about ur belief, it makes it obvious that you dont have any. That was the jist of my posts. I did not get into anything related to shias or sunnis.
The last i saw, there were 14 different fiqahs amongst shias. 1.More than one of those sects have altered the Holy Quran where they have deleted a few ayats from Surah Tauba.2. Believing in the same prophet doesnt neccessarily mean u hold him at the same leve of respect. It is more than clear that shias regard imams as superior to prophets.
3.Cursing and berating the sahaba based on hogwash concocted Islamic knowledge is not gonna prove anyone superior to anyone. Allah SWT has said in the Quran relating to the sahaba...
"wa razi allahu anhu wa razu anhu"
I am pleased with you and you with me"
Now you can concoct whatever garbage you wish to, but Im not here to nitpick. You made me jump in even though i wished to be left out since i dont want to see a shia sunni confrontation here. Like i said before, regardless of all the differences we have, it doesnt serve any purpose..not on this forum. I was basically just trying to restrain Baykhatr, who had views similar to mine, to stay away from such fruitless confrontation. You are the one who thrust this shia sunni issue at me, something i dont want any part of. So lets just call it a forum and part off here. Religion is everyones business, but faith is a personal business, and i wish to keep it that way.
[This message has been edited by Akif (edited December 22, 1999).]
Salaam brother Akif
Yeah I did bothered to read the whole post of yours and in my opinion these words
">>These have been declared 'murtads/munkars', by well researched scholars of today thruout Muslim world.<<
For that matter, even shias have been declared munkirs by a lot of scholars"
I think it sounds more like a debate you were doing, where you were trying to present your opinion on any religious aspect of things, and I think if someone is arguing or debating about the beliefs, it means that he is confident about his beliefs and wants to share or convince to others or he wants to learn more by debating with others, but in no terms does it means like what you said the person debating has no beliefs. Why would he debate if he don't have any beliefs, and yeah my friend, would you like to share the source where you learnt or listened that some ayats from Surah Tauba have been deleted, to my knowledge Quran has been always the same and will always be the same since the time of Prophet, Its the only book of God that have never been changed, unlike bible, and books revealed to other Prophets, and yeah to shia's Holy Prophet is the most superior personality compare to Imams, Shia's follows the same teaching Holy Prophet have taught, and they refer to Imams, to seek guidance incase a problem or issue arises, whom they want a solution for, and if you look at the history of the Imams, you will see if a question asked to one Imam and the same question asked to the other Imam, the answers given by both is always going to be the same, and they have inspired lot of big personalities with thier knowledge, and would you please like to tell us the defination of Sahaba, which of the Holy Prophet companions are Sahaba and which one are not, How can we differentiate, and if you look at the posts brother 2pak have posted or read the book, the debates about the character of what you may call some of the sahabas have been backed up with the references from the different books, and i don't think this is something you can call hogwash concocted Islamic knowledge, because you can find this information from different
books of history,
<
Please i am trying to seek knowledge here my listening other people views and reading books but i don't think i am trying to concoct whatever garbage I wish to, Its about our beliefs we are talking here and you cannot call one's belief garbage, just becuase they are different from yours, If you want to be the part of the debate, tell us your views, but you can't call the other's garbage.
May Allah guide us to the right path and help us live the life in an islamic way, and keep us far from bad deeds and forgive us for our bad deeds
Ameen
Shia have edited Quran, now thats hard to believe, have you ever heard there is a shia version of Quran and Sunni version, where on earth did you get that from Akif bahi, I would like to know,don't tell me you didn't know any squat of what you were talking about, while you were debating here, like you said "the debators dont know squat about what they are talking", or as you said, are you trying to concoct whatever garbage you wish to, sorry don't want to be rude man, but these were some strange things you wrote there without any feed back and i wanted to know where did you learn them from.
Well said Mr. Pakistani! Also, note the guy who started this anti-shia tirade and is conspicuosly absent is - Asif. Know them for what they are and while the readers are at it, note - also, the reactions of the others who meekly go along in their tirade as if that is proper behaviour. This seems to be the norm in our society - If a dog starts to bark, the others join in; rather, it should be: Let the mad dog bark and Let him bark alone!
[This message has been edited by wowyi (edited December 26, 1999).]
Mr. Pakistani,
Some (not all) Shia scholars believe in the tahreef-e-quran argument. They believe that Quran was altered by the early caliphs so that it suited their own political agenda. The basic problem has always been the fact that the ahl-e-bait (descendants of Prophet Mohammad) didn't get to rule the Muslims right after the Prophet's death. Most (almost all) shias believe that Abu Bakr and Omar (razi allah u taala anhumaa) forcibly got the caliphdom, hence the use of word ghaasib for both these caliphs. Some (not all) shias also believe that Ali (razi alla hu taala anhu) and then his descendants continued to receive divine guidance, and that again most hadiths were concocted to hide this fact from Muslims. Most (almost all) shias believe that these Imams (Ali and his descendants) were a cut above the rest of umma, equalling and sometimes even towering over prophets. So obviously it's a very serious issue to them that people who should have been caliphs were devoid of that right until much later - hence their hatred of sahabaa karaam. Most of them consider Abu Bakr, Omar and Ayesha (May Allah bless all of them), faasiqs liars and hellbound. You'll never find a shia with these (and other sahabaa karam) names. Never.
Shias have their own books, one of the most authentic is the usool-e-kaafee, which is sort of like what Sahee Bukhaaree is considered to be, by most Muslims. It is a known fact, and admitted by even Shia scholars themselves, that the compiler of Usool-e-kaafee (Al Kulaynee ??), himself believed in the tahreef-e-quraan.
Most (almost all) shias believe that when Prophet Mohammad in his last sermon said, that he was leaving two things among the ummat as guidance, he meant Quran and Ahl-e-Bayt... Muslims on the other hand believe, that he meant Quran and Sunnat. Most shias also point out the hadith in Sahih Bukhari, where Ali came up with some saheefay, after the death of Prophet Mohammad. Apparently that's a 'sahih' hadith.
These are all pretty much facts. I 'd appreciate, if any Shia here 'd like to correct some errors by writing facts, not opinions. My thanks in advance.
I guess my point is that, shia and sunni (I'd say Muslims) pray the same God, but after that almost everything is different. For that matter, Ahmadi, Christians, Jews, Sikhs and even some (very few) Hindus pray the same God too. In fact, sunni (Muslims) have more in common with Ahmadi than with shias. You can't brand Ahmadi as kafir and stop there. By extending the same logic either one of shia or sunni faction have to be a kafir too.
I don't care one bit what anyone's opinion about this matter is. Like Akif, I don't get into these debates, but sometimes, I just write facts, so we all know where we stand. And besides, I hate this mentality of using Ahmadis as a scapegoat for every unfavourable thing under the Sun.
Allah knows best
Shias,
Why instigate a debate when you are not clear in your minds & heart what the 'Imam' truly is. I am yet to find Shias clearly state that the Imams are appointed by divine authority of Allah, are pure & infallible; There is no need for 'Taqiya' in the West.
Sunnis,
Clearly, Hazrat Ali was the rightful successor to the Holy Prophet, yet you oppose this and blindly protect Caliph Omur who prevented the Prophet from writing his last will. The Holy Prophet asked the people to bring him ink and paper and according to some reports he said: "Bring me ink and paper so that I may remove from your minds all doubts about the caliphate after me; that is so that I may tell you who deserves the caliphate after me." At this point they write, Umar said, "Leave this man for he is really talking nonsense (may Allah forgive me!); the Book of Allah is sufficient for us." This, clearly, is a major insult to the Prophet (may Allah forgive me).
Disclaimer: My views above are not meant to insult any group. May Allah forgive me.
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited January 07, 2000).]
That's exactly what happened faceup and I'll try to get some Imam stuff for you.
Faceup....>>The Holy Prophet asked the people to bring him ink and paper and according to some reports he said: "Bring me ink and paper so that I may remove from your minds all doubts about the caliphate after me; that is so that I may tell you who deserves the caliphate after me." At this point they write, Umar said, "Leave this man for he is really talking nonsense (may Allah forgive me!); the Book of Allah is sufficient for us." This, clearly, is a major insult to the Prophet (may Allah forgive me).<<
May Allah really forgive you for fabricating the wordings of this incidence, to sport your hatred against Syedna Omar. While it is reported by some historians that RasulAllah swaw, did ask for writing material, to leave some instructions, so that the Umma does not go astray after his demise. But Syedna Omar wanted his physical condition to improve first, therefore he said that 'you are in such a pain right now, we have Allah's book, which is enough for us!' Offcourse argument broke, just like it is breaking right now between you and me, as to he, swaw, should be provided writing material, or instead one must waite until his, swaw, condition improves first. On such a brawl, RasulAllah, swaw is reported to have said,
'leave me alone. My condition is better than what you are indulged in. Go away from me as fights are not proper behaviour beside me.'
Ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, says that after these people went away, RasulAllah, swaw, advised about three things.
1) Kick mushrikeens out of Arab land
2) Treat/Greet all diplomatic mission in the same nice manner, as he did himself.
3) either he could not say the third thing OR the narrator forgot it.
This is the whole inside of this particular incidence. You must realise that the behaviour of all the people who were assembled around him at the time of his serious illness was a show of their complete anxiety and apprehension. It is reported that Syedna Abbas started crying years after this incidence, when once, someone, reminded him that it was thursday. When asked, he replied that thursday was very sever on RasulAllah, swaw.
Now what was it that RasulAllah, swaw, wanted to put it to writing. Incidences after this day, have already decided that it was nothing. For your information, RasulAllah, swaw, remained not only alive,for another four days after this thursday, but also his, swaw, conditions improved a lot. He went to Masjad e Nabvi, and addressed suhabaas. If there was something so important which was deviding the Umma, dont you think, he swaw, could have gotton it documented, by asking Abu Bakr, or Osman, or Zaid, or anyone from Ahl ul Bayt, or Syedna Ali, for that matter.
But your history perhaps do not go as far. It is very sad and unfortunate that you are posting such hateful messages, which reflect your animosity against Syedna Omar.
May Allah forgive you.
This excerpt was taken from "Then I Was Guided" by Muhammad Samawi Tijani who WAS a Tunisian Sunni but then became a Shia after reading SUNNI BOOKS
1. The text regarding the succession to the Caliphate
I have committed myself, before embarking on this study, to never depending on any reference unless it is considered authentic by the two parties, and to discarding those references that are solely referred to by only one of the parties.
Thus, I shall investigate the idea regarding the preference between Abu Bakr and Ali ibn Abi Talib, and that the succession of the caliphate was by written text [Dictate] for Ali, as the Shiites claim, and not by election and Shura [consultation] as the Sunnis claim.
Any researcher in this subject, if he considers nothing but the truth, will find that the text in support of Ali is very clear, like the following saying by the Messenger of Allah: Whoever considers me his master, then Ali is his master. He said it at the end of the Farewell Pilgrimage, when it was confirmed that Ali would succeed, and many people congratulated him on that, including** Abu Bakr and Umar who were among the well-wishers, and who were quoted as having said to the Imam, Well done, Ibn Abi Talib, overnight you have become a master of all the believers**." [64]
[64]
Musnad, Ahmed Hanbal, vol 4 p 281
Siyar al Amin, al Ghazali, p 12
Tadhkirat al Awas, Ibn al Jawzi, p 29
Al Riyadh al Nazarah, al Tabari, vol 2 p 169
al Bidayah wan Nihayah, vol 5 p 212
Tarikh, Ibn Asakir, vol 2 p 50
Tafsir, al Razi, vol 3 p 63
al Hawi lil Fatawi, al Suyuti, vol 1 p 112
**This text has been agreed on by both Shiites and Sunnis, and in fact I have only referred in this study to some Sunni references. and not to all of them, for they are so many.
If the reader wants more information, he may read "al- Ghadir" by al-Amini (thirteen Volumes) in which the writer classifies the sayings of the Prophet according to the Sunnis. **
As for the alleged popular election of Abu Bakr on "The Day of al-Saqifah" and his subsequent acclamation in the mosque; it seems that it was just an allegation without foundation. How could it be by popular agreement when so many people were absent during the acclamation? People like: Ali, al-Abbas, most of the house of Bani Hashim, Usama ibn Zayd, al-Zubayr, Salman al-Farisi, Abu Dharr al-Ghifari, al-Miqdad ibn al-Aswad, Ammar ibn Yasir, Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman, Khuzayma ibn Thabit, Abu Burayd al-Aslami, al-Bura ibn Azib, Abu Ka'b, Sahl ibn Hanif, Saad ibn Ubada, Qays ibn Saad, Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, Jabir ibn Saad, Khalid ibn Saad, and many others. [65]
[65]
Tarikh, al Tabari
Ibn al Athir
Suyuti
Baghdadi
So where was that alleged popular agreement? The absence of Ali alone from the acclamation is sufficient to criticize that meeting because he was the only candidate for the caliphate, nominated by the Messenger of Allah, on the assumption that there was no direct text regarding such a nomination.
The acclamation of Abu Bakr was without consultation, in fact it took the people by surprise, especially when the men in charge of the Muslim affairs were busy preparing for the funeral of the Messenger of Allah. The citizens of al-Medinah were shocked by the death of their Prophet, and then they forced the acclamation [66] on the people. and even threatened to burn the house of Fatima if those who were absent from the acclamation refused to leave it. So how could we say that the acclamation was implemented through consultation and popular agreement?
[66]
Tarikh, Qutaybah, vol 1 p 18
Umar ibn al-Khattab himself testified that that acclamation was a mistake - may Allah protect the Muslims from its evil -, and that whoever repeated it should be killed, or he might have said that if someone called for a similar action there would he no acclamation for him or for those who acclaimed him. [67]
Sahih, Bukhari, vol 4 p 127
Imam Ali said about that acclamation: By Allah, Ibn Abi Quhafa has got it! And he knows that my position [regarding the caliphate] is like that of the pole in relation to the millstone! The torrent flows from me, and the bird will never reach me! [68]
[68]
Sharh, Muhammad Abduh, vol 1 p 34, Sermon as Shaqshaqiyah
Saad ibn Ubada, a prominent man from al-Ansar, attacked Abu Bakr and Umar on the day of "al-Saqifah", and tried hard to keep them away from the caliphate, but could not sustain his efforts, for he was ill and unable to stand, and after al-Ansar paid homage to Abu Bakr, Saad said: "By Allah I shall never pay homage to you until I cast my last arrow at you, and pierce you with my lance, and attack you with my sword, with all the power in my hand, and fight you with all the members of my family and clan. By Allah, even if all the Jinns [invisible beings] and the human beings gathered to support you, I will never acclaim you, until I meet my God." He never prayed with them, he never sat in their company, he never performed the pilgrimage with them, and if he found a group of people willing to fight them, he would give them all his support, and if somebody acclaimed him to fight them, he would have fought them. He remained thus until he died in Syria during the caliphate of Umar. [69]
[69]
Tarikh, Qutaybah, vol 1 p 17
If that was a mistake (may Allah protect the Muslims from its evil) as Umar put it (and he was one of its architects, and knew what happened to the Muslims as a result of it), and if that succession to the caliphate was illegal (as Imam Ali described it when he said that he was the lawful nominee for it),** and if that acclamation was unjust (as according to Saad ibn Ubada the leader of al-Ansar who left al-Jamaah because of it), and if that acclamation was unlawful due to the absence of the leading figures of the Companions, including al-Abbas, the uncle of the Prophet, so what is the evidence and proof which supports the legality of the Abu Bakr's succession to the caliphate? **
*The answer, is that there is no evidence or proof with the Sunnis and al-Jamaah. *
Therefore, what the Shiites say regarding this issue is right,** because it has been established that the Sunnis have the text which proves the succession of Ali to the caliphate, but they deliberately misinterpret it to maintain the Companion's honour.** Thus, the just and fair person has no choice but to accept the text, especially if he knows the circumstances that surrounded the case. [70]
[70]
al Saqifah wal Khulafah by Abdul Fattah Abdul Maqsood
al Saqifah by Muhammad Rida al Muzaffar
[This message has been edited by 2PaK (edited January 03, 2000).]
Allama Iqbal said:-
'Parwanay ko charagh Bulbul ko phool bus
'Siddique kay liay khuda ka rasool bus
So? Sidique is a person who is truthful and honest. It doesn't mean Allama Iqbal was referring to Abu Bakr. And why did you bring him up? Did Allama Iqbal write any books on hadith?
to 2Pak
No Ilama Iqbal did not write any book on hadith, but he wrote the following sheyr
Insaan kou baidaar tou ho lainay do
har Kouam pukaray gi hamaray hain Hossein
Have ever thought of coming out of your narrow shell of prejudice and bogotry and viewing the Islam as a universal religion??
It is great fun!! Eid Mubarik to you.
Islam is a universal religion? What planet are you living on? If Islam was a universal religion you the Sunnis would not bow down to the west in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. At least Iran doesn't give a damn about the west. If Islam was a universal religion we would not be fighting each other and we would be a superpower insted of the USA. The sunnis are the most RASCIST sect of Islam who don't know anything about Islam or their own philosophers. Allama Iqbal has nothing to do with this discussion and no one cares what he says.