Ibrahim says: greetings of Peace to one and all
seems like a good offer, so just forwarding, good oppotunity for ahmedias to make some money
REFERENCE AS REQUESTED
BY YOUR MAJESTY
Dear Dawood Majoka (Forum Moderator)
In your posts 1455 dated 21-05-2002 (in the ez board). You have written as follows:-
"As I am in need of 5 lac rupees so I attempt it.
Now before we can proceed further please GIVE me the following REFERENCE:
HMGA A.S. SAID THAT Paul invented trinity AFTER THE DEATH of Isa a.s."
Reference As Requested By Your Majesty
The reference is on pages 321 & 322 of "ANJAM-E-ATHAM", "ROOHANI KHAZAIN" vol.11 as follows:-
Transliteration:
Page 321: "is shakhs ( Paul )ney isai mazhab mein bohat fasad dala.
Page 322"Gharz jaisa kei ayat ka mufhoom hey. Isaiyoan mein fasad aur bigaar Hadrat Isa ki wafat kei baad HEE shoroo ho goya tha."
Translation:
Page 321 "This person ( Paul ) infused much corruption in the faith of Christianity.
Page 322"The gist (mufhoom) of the verse is that among the Christians (Essaiyoun) corruption in the faith (fasad) and deterioration of the faith (bigaar) started only after THE DEATH OF HADRAT ESA (AS)."
The above points are in No.6 & 8 in the following observation of what Mirza Saheb says in this regard on page-321 and 322 of volume-11 of "Roohani Khazain"
(ANJAM-E-ATHAM):-
(1) The seeds of association were sown.
(2) In the religion of Christianity (Essai).
(3) During the time of the Hawaris.
(4) After the death of Hadrat Esa (AS).
(5) One mischievous Jew Paul, came into the midst of the Hawaris.
(6) Paul infused much corruption in the faith of christianity.
(7) And because of Paul's KIDNAPPING one sect became worshippers of the dead (Murda Parast).
(8) The gist (mufhoom) of the verse is that among the Christians (Essaiyoun) corruption in the faith (fasad) and deterioration of the faith (bigaar) STARTED only after THE DEATH of Hadrat Esa (AS).
How can Paul who died before Hadrat Esa (AS) infuse corruption in faith of Christianity AFTER THE DEATH of Hadrat Esa (AS).?
Similarly Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says on page 61 of "CHASHMA-E-MASIHI" as follows:-
"And in the very first instance, he (PAUL) planted the bad plant of Trinity in Damascus. And this Pauline Trinity started from Damascus. Hadis of Hadrat Muhammed (S.A.W.) points to this….…"
Similarly Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says on page 61 of "CHASHMA-E-MASIHI" as follows:-
"One King had him (Paul) executed. And in this way his life ended."
ILLIAS SUTTAR (B.Com. LL.B)
President
Sautul-Islam Trust (Regd.)
Ibrahim Sahib,
I didn’t know Andhra had influenced so many people with his wink. God bless us all!
Anyway, the answer to Mr. Illias Suttar (B.Com LL.B) is a one liner.
Hazrat Isa (as) did not have any connection back in Jerusalem after he migrated to the lost sheep of Israel. Whatever Paul or the rest of the disciples did to his message was totally unknown to him, evident from Quran (5:117)
I can go into scrutinizing the references mentioned above as if I remember correctly Kist-e-Nooh (my all time favorite book by the way) does not have 87 pages to begin with. You want me to check on it?
p.s: I would like my 5 lack be donated to Abdus Satar Eidi please.
Disclaimer: The above mentioned is my personal belief and should not be taken for the official voice of Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam.
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
Anyway, the answer to Mr. Illias Suttar (B.Com LL.B) is a one liner.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Salaam to all
Dear Ahmadjee thank you for responding, can always count on you for ahmadi facts, BUT! Don't you think you should take this brilliant answer to the party who is making the offer, did you not note that I am merely forwarding this offer for the benefit of ahmedis ?
[quote]
Hazrat Isa (as) did not have any connection back in Jerusalem after he migrated to the lost sheep of Israel.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: that sounds odd, you mean to say Allah (swt) sent the** SIGN ** for mankind to the save the Jews in Jerusalem in which he failed, after which he ran away from that commitment and decided to save the lost sheep of Israel in India?
[quote]
Whatever Paul or the rest of the disciples did to his message was totally unknown to him, evident from Quran (5:117)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: You mean Allah (swt) was blind (nauzubillah) or the angels that were with him also neglected their duties in advising him of what was happening when he was in this planet?
Kindly read!
[5:117]
YUSUFALI:
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; ** when Thou didst take me up ** Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
PICKTHAL:
I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying) : Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and ** when Thou tookest me ** Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.
SHAKIR:
I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, ** but when Thou didst cause me to die, ** Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
Noble Qur'an
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; ** when Thou didst take me up ** Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
TB IRVING
While I do not know anything that is on Yours. You are the knower of Unseen things. I have never told them anything except what you have ordered me to: worship God as my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness for them ** so long as I was amongst them. When you gathered me up, ** you became the watcher over them. You are the witness for everything. If you should punish them, surely you are powerful wise.
Ibrahim says : The above ayah ** merely confirms that Jesus was only a mortal, and that his knowledge was limited like that of a mortal in addition to the fact that he was taken up/removed from this planet ** and after which he is not responsible for the actions of the Jews.
** Thus Ahmadjee , your assertion that , this verse means he ran away to Kashmir and was unaware of what is going on in Jerusalem , is very funny to speak or think of. **
[quote]
I can go into scrutinizing the references mentioned above as if I remember correctly Kist-e-Nooh (my all time favorite book by the way) does not have 87 pages to begin with.** You want me to check on it? **
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee, don't you not want to know for sure, as to what is clearly against your faith? Are you going to court and claim you remember or put forward evidence to prove your opponent wrong?
** But NO Muslim or even a Christian will accept the errors about Jesus living in Kashmir and abandoning his duties towards the Jews in Jerusalem as true. **
[quote]
p.s: I would like my 5 lack be donated to Abdus Satar Eidi please.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says that is silly, you need to proof your assertions to claim the offer as given by Mr. ILLIAS SUTTAR (B.Com. LL.B), President, Sautul-Islam Trust (Regd.) 19-Commercial Area, Bahadurabad, 2nd Floor, Karachi-74800, Pakistan.
Tel. 92-21-4937221, E-mail: [email protected] on MAY 21, 2002
Hope that helps
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** if you are wake during daytime, there is no need to burn the midnight oil. **
I THINK there were tribes of Jews that had migrated to towards Kashmir, the Pathans and Kashmiris may be the descendants of these jews. He may have followed them. I may be wrong though..!?
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
I THINK there were tribes of Jews that had migrated to towards Kashmir, the Pathans and Kashmiris may be the descendants of these jews. He may have followed them. I may be wrong though..!?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : salaams to all
Dear Adnan Ahmed, What! when Allah (swt) claims he raised him up from being killed by the jews, you want to believe otherwise?
was salaam
Ibrahim
** Truths advantage over alie; you need to say it only once . **
**Ibrahim **sahib,
Even though its very tempting to take you up for an argument and the natural death of Jesus (as) as being my focus of study for many years I humbly consider myself well verse in the argument ... still I will stop at this post! As the argument is bound to go no where and I am seriously not in the mood to read through your long posts of beating the bush. So, I will answer to you this once and hope that you will accept is as my point of view and belief. If you still aren't convinced that I suggest that you do some reading, especially the 'Jesus in India' book by Hazrat Ahmad (as)
>>>>Ibrahim says: that sounds odd, you mean to say Allah (swt) sent the SIGN for mankind to the save the Jews in Jerusalem in which he failed, after which he ran away from that commitment and decided to save the lost sheep of Israel in India?<<<
He did not fail, on the contrary he fulfilled his signs and the teachings to the two tribes of Israel residing in Jerushlem at the time. Then he migrated with the same signs and teachings to the rest of the 10 tribes of Isreal scatered all over the modern day middle east up till Kashmir, India. He was a Messiah to all the Jews, not only the ones residing in the promised land. No prophet dies before he completes his mission appointed by Allah.
>>>Ibrahim says: You mean Allah (swt) was blind (nauzubillah) or the angels that were with him also neglected their duties in advising him of what was happening when he was in this planet?<<<
Its your assuption aganit Allah, please don't put words in my mouth. Jesus (as) gave his teachings to the Jews as priscribed by Allah, if they chose to not accept or change his teachings afterwards then its not Jesus (as) responsibility. He did his duty well!
>>>The above ayah merely confirms that Jesus was only a mortal, and that his knowledge was limited like that of a mortal in addition to the fact that he was taken up/removed from this planet and after which he is not responsible for the actions of the Jews.<<<
Avoiding the discussion on the word "Tawafee" that some translate as 'took me up' and others as 'death' (see SHAKIR's translation above), I would like to point out two things that I understand from this verse.
Jesus (as) had no knowledge what his own followers had done to his teachings after he left Jerushelum.
The verse talks about the day of judgment. (please read the verses before and after it) And if the same physical Jesus (as) is to come back, as most Muslims/Christians believe, then he would see that the Christians have taken him as God's son. And so cannot deny that as stated in the above mention verse.
>>> Thus Ahmadjee , your assertion that , this verse means he ran away to Kashmir and was unaware of what is going on in Jerusalem , is very funny to speak or think of. <<<
I am surprised to say the least when you use the term 'funny'.
Ahmadis believe that Jesus (as) was saved from crusifiction (a kind of near death experience that many prophets go through and then are saved by Allah with his blessings) and then migrated (also an experience many prophets had to take) to his people who he came for, in order to preach them the same teachings he preached the few Jews in Jerushelum, so he may fulfil his mission like all other prophets before and after him ... and you think its 'funny'?
Comparing to your belief that Allah took him up in the sky with his physical body (never have been proven to be done in the whole entire history of mankind, and makes no sense at all as to where he is, what is he doing for the past 2000 years), so he be decended to the people he didn't come for in the first place, after thousands of years (don't know when it will happen) and another innocent human being suffered crusifiction for the sins he never commited .. and you think in comparision my belief is "funny" ???
Astagfarullah!
Lastly, I have no intentions to take Mr. ILLIAS SUTTAR (B.Com. LL.B) to court. The matters of belief are at heart not in the legal system. Hope you understand that!
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 29, 2002).]
I am not interested in 5 lakh or approx 8 grand US.. what would be the bottom line if we win? will he start believing God or will he continue his pre-assigned agenda?
anyways I don’t want to get into win-win debate but would like to add my two cents to Mr. Ibrahim’s interpretation of the Holy Quran where he mentioned Jesus Ascention, I would like to ask him, if he can support his interpretation in the light of Quran, Sunnah, Arabic Lexicon or by any means.
I, as an Ahmadi interpret this word as has been interpreted by Quran. ** The word ‘Mutawaffi’ is derived from ‘Tawaffa’. When Allah is the subject and a human being the object, Tawaffa has no other meaning than that of taking away the soul, whether in sleep or death. The word has been used in no less than 25 different places in the Quran and in no less than 23 of them the meaning is to take away the soul at the time of death. Only in two places the meaning is to take away the soul at the time of sleep; but here the qualifying word ‘sleep’ or ‘night’ has been added (Chap. Al-Anam, verse 60 & Chap. Al-Zumar, verse 42).
Reference Verses:**
▫ Al-Baqara 2:240 –* …those of you who die…*
▫ Al-Baqara 2:234 –* …those of you who die…*
▫ Al-Imran 3:193 –* …and make us die in the state of righteousness…*
▫ An-Nisâ' 4:15 –* …until death comes to them…*
▫ An-Nisâ' 4:97 –* …those whom the angels take (in death)… *
▫ Al-An'âm 6:60 –* …It is He, Who takes your souls by night …*
▫ Al-A'râf 7:37 –* …come to them to take their souls … *
▫ Al-A'râf 7:126 –* …and cause us to die as Muslims…*
▫ Ar-Ra’d 13:40 –* …cause you to die…*
▫ Yunus 10:46 –* …We cause you to die…*
▫ Yusuf 12:101 –* …cause me to die as a Muslim…*
▫ An-Nahl 16:70 – …He will cause you to die …
▫ Al-Hajj 22:5 – …and among you there is he who dies …
▫ As-Ssajda 32:11 –* …will take your souls …*
▫ Az-Zumar 39:42 –* …It is Allâh Who takes away the souls …*
▫ Muhamad 47:27 –* …when the angels will take their souls at death… * **
I will be looking forwards to see your references.
Jazakallah
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited May 29, 2002).]
Somehow Ahadith – the collection of the Traditions of the Holy Prophet(sa) has covered each and every subject of Quran and in some book has been dealt at great lengths. Amazingly all these books of Ahadith and Sunnah are silent on the issue of Jesus alive ascension to Sky.. none claim the story as today’s Muslims narrate.
As it is evident from the pages of History that every Nation of Every Prophet has lost the real essence of their teachings and so are the Muslims.. to support their beliefs that Jesus Ascended to Haven and Will descend down in later days, Muslims have crafted a fairy tale by picking up one word from Quran and One word from Ahadith i.e Rafa (as physical ascension) and Nazul(as Physical descent), if anyone with a keen eye, browse through any of the Arabic Lexicon and look at this fact that the Opposite of RAFA is Tawadu and the Opposite of Nazul is A’Saud, the words RAFA and Nazul are no way opposite or related to each other.. they are just used to support their false beliefs.
I pray to Allah may He give Muslims some intellect to revise their beliefs.
The whole concept of Jesus Ascension carries lots of contradictions in the light of Quran, the Sunnah and the Intellect, Unfortunately there is no answer to that except lurking on that delusion.
Ibrahim brother, Aslam-o-lakum. I make that much in a week. Can you up the buck a little? I lose that much on horses in a month. Tell the guys to shove the 5 lacs up their holy hole. Cheap arseholes.
[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
*Ibrahim brother, Aslam-o-lakum. I make that much in a week. Can you up the buck a little? I lose that much on horses in a month. Tell the guys to shove the 5 lacs up their holy hole. Cheap arseholes. *
[/quote]
Its funny how all the qadianies are talking about other things than asked. There is clearly contradictions in mirza´s words as they are described here, but instead of proven that wrong you are only proving that believing in mirza is not islamic.(is playing on horses described as islamic by mirza?)
May Allah grant us all Imaan and wisdom.
.(is playing on horses described as islamic by mirza?)<<<
yes, like giving away 5 lacs to anyone…what do you think is that considered a Zakat?
[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
*Ibrahim brother, Aslam-o-lakum. I make that much in a week. Can you up the buck a little? *
[/quote]
Wow,
Not bad at all.
What do you do and do you need a partner ?
[quote]
Ahmadjee: Even though its very tempting to take you up for an argument and the natural death of Jesus (as) as being my focus of study for many years I humbly consider myself well verse in the argument ... still I will stop at this post! the argument is bound to go no where and I am seriously not in the mood to read through your long posts of beating the bush.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all
Dear Ahmadjee, what you chose to do is your own business but don't give lame excuses that my posts are long, which seems to be a perennial problem for you, since they expose the very things that you wish to hide.
[quote]
So, I will answer to you this once and hope that you will accept is as my point of view and belief. If you still aren't convinced that I suggest that you do some reading, especially the 'Jesus in India' book by Hazrat Ahmad (as)
[/quote]
Ibrahim say : what I say is based on scriptures not on what some tom , dick and harry wrote.
[quote]
He did not fail, on the contrary he fulfilled his signs and the teachings to the two tribes of Israel residing in Jerushlem at the time.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: So only two tribes resided in Jerusalem ?? that is news and what happened to the rest of the tribes?? where were they staying and why were they alienated from their TEMPLE and priesthood?
[quote]
Then he migrated with the same signs and teachings to the rest of the 10 tribes of Isreal scatered all over the modern day middle east up till Kashmir, India.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: so now after the crucifixion he traveled to the rest of the tribes in the middle east! Stop right here! and explain why the Jewish people got scattered in the middle east and why there is no such incidence being recorded of him in the middle east.
[quote]
He was a Messiah to all the Jews, not only the ones residing in the promised land.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Good, now explain why were all Jews , the ones saved by Christ living away from the promised land, when only that land was promised to them for that duration?
[quote]
No prophet dies before he completes his mission appointed by Allah.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says when did he die ?? use the scriptures and quote from it? What was his mission??
[quote]
Jesus (as) gave his teachings to the Jews as priscribed by Allah, if they chose to not accept or change his teachings afterwards then its not Jesus (as) responsibility. He did his duty well!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says But ahmadjee you claimed he lived in another part (Kashmir) , when he was sent to Jerusalem not to Kashmir to establish the truth…do you understand ? what I am saying is, Why Jerusalem?, because that was where the ark of the covenant was to be stationed and not in Kashmir, do you understand? He was sent to redeem the Jews who were the core of that faith, the Levite priesthood, not Jews who may have lived in any part of this planet? For that Christ sent 72 other disciples in all directions, as recorded in the Bible.
[quote]
Avoiding the discussion on the word "Tawafee" that some translate as 'took me up' and others as 'death' (see SHAKIR's translation above), I would like to point out two things that I understand from this verse.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Good the Qur'an is not based on one word and only the deviants translate it as die, the rest translate it as having raised up.
[quote]
1. Jesus (as) had no knowledge what his own followers had done to his teachings after he left Jerushelum.
Ibrahim says: meaning he was only a mortal, which is what I have said. BUT when did he left Jerusalem or the lands where jews were concentrated??? To where did he go is your own creation not what is recorded in the scriptures. As such I will take the word of the scriptures and brush aside your clans owns writings.
[quote]
2. The verse talks about the day of judgment. (please read the verses before and after it)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : sorry ahmadjee the verse does not talk about the day of judgment but about the burden that Allah (swt) has placed on the Prophets
Kindly read
5: 109 ** One day will Allah gather the apostles together and ask:** "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)? ** They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is thou who knowest in full all that is hidden.**
Ibrahim says : hence 5:117, is about this event and the answer he/Christ will give concerning what Allah (swt) will ask all prophets not only Christ. Hope you understand better now.
[quote]
And if the same physical Jesus (as)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says I guess when you use the word physical, it seems obvious you did not understand that human beings are not raised physically but after transformation, that does not mean they die ( you will understand this better when you have knowledge about what is conveyed in the bible)
[quote]
is to come back, as most Muslims/Christians believe, then he would see that the Christians have taken him as God's son. And so cannot deny that as stated in the above mention verse.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: I repeat that verse is only about Christ answer, which confirms that he was only mortal even though he was created from a word and created without a father, which BTW will be the same answer as given by all prophets , as mentioned in 5:109
[quote]
Ahmadis believe that Jesus (as) was saved from crusifiction (a kind of near death experience that many prophets go through and then are saved by Allah with his blessings)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: this belief of the ahmadis, contradicts the Bible and the Qur'an as such you can see why ahmadis are thrown out of Islam!
[quote]
and then migrated (also an experience many prophets had to take) to his people who he came for, in order to preach them the same teachings he preached the few Jews in Jerushelum, so he may fulfil his mission like all other prophets before and after him ... and you think its 'funny'?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says absolutely! because I know the bible just like I know the Qur'an in addition what ahmadis teach about Paul inventing trinity whilst Christ was alive is not only funny but folly.
[quote]
Comparing to your belief that Allah took him up in the sky with his physical body
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: see, you have been under the impression that a person with a human body was raised but that is not the case, so go and do some research to find out how prophets get transformed before they are taken up ( try reading the hadiths about chapter 17 in the Qur'an and the Prophet (pbuh) journey to the heavens and prophets who have already passed away praying together )
quote,
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: why have you not accepted the fact that prophets were sent to bolster Christ in his prayers and prophets prayed behind Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon them all) and prophets NEVER die but are alive in their respective plane in heaven . ahmadee, have you seen your soul? Since the soul has not been proven in the whole human history are you in doubt of not having it?
Read the Bible you will know what Christ is doing in heaven? If you need help ask and I will tell, you, if I added all that here, you will complain the post is too long and you have no time to read it.
[quote]
so he be decended to the people he didn't come for in the first place, after thousands of years
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: are you claiming Allah (swt) is limited by your understanding? Did you not understand the meaning behind SIGN for mankind. ???
quote
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : ahmadjee, what as silly notion, nothing that will come to pass tomorrow can be known by any of us, that is why we say Insha Allah…do you understand?
[quote]
and another innocent human being suffered crusifiction for the sins he never commited
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: wasn't that your construction due to limited knowledge, when I nor the scripture which Allah (swt) conveyed , did not say anything like that?
[quote]
.. and you think in comparision my belief is "funny" ??? astagfarullah!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: absolutely because your understanding was FLAWED, which I hope I have corrected by explaining above.
[quote]
Lastly, I have no intentions to take Mr. ILLIAS SUTTAR (B.Com. LL.B) to court. The matters of belief are at heart not in the legal system. Hope you understand that!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: ahh my friend you don't need to go to court you only need to prove him wrong, such that you can claim you are on the right path, but I am not forcing you , on the other hand, if you don't, you have failed yourself because anyone who gives me such a challenge will be dealt with by the Grace of Allah (swt), not for the money or honey but to establish the TRUTH.
Hope that helps,
Regards
Ibrahim
** a lazy person is busy with his laziness **
[quote]
I am not interested in 5 lakh or approx 8 grand US.. what would be the bottom line if we win? will he start believing God or will he continue his pre-assigned agenda?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: greeting of peace to one and all,,
Zalim dear, why don't you find out? I had already given email and contact address, must I also be your messenger?
[quote]
Mr. Ibrahim's interpretation of the Holy Quran
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: pardon me, I did not make any interpretation of Holy Qur'an, I merely posted the translations that are being used today.
[quote]
where he mentioned Jesus Ascention, I would like to ask him, if he can support his interpretation in the light of Quran, Sunnah, Arabic Lexicon or by any means.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : was the Qur'an too difficult for you to understand or do you suppose all the translators must have erred in their translation? Maybe you believed the Prophet (pbuh) also erred ??
Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 6924 Narrated by Abu Hurayrah
** Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: The Last Hour will not come until ** the Romans land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people on Earth at that time will come from Medina (to oppose them). When they arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans will say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from among us. Let us fight them. The Muslims will say: Nay, by Allah, we shall never turn aside from you and from our brethren so that you may fight them. They will then fight and a third (part) of the army, whom Allah will never forgive, will run away. A third (part of the army), which will be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eyes, would be killed. The third who will never be put on trial will win and they will be the conquerors of Constantinople. As they are busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, Satan will cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your families. They will then come out, but it will be of no avail. When they reach Syria, he will come out while they are still preparing themselves for battle, drawing up the ranks. ** Certainly, the time of prayer will come and then Jesus (peace be upon him), son of Mary, descend and will lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah see him, it will (disappear) just as salt dissolves in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely. Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).**
[quote]
I, as an Ahmadi interpret this word as has been interpreted by Quran. ** The word 'Mutawaffi' is derived from 'Tawaffa'. When Allah is the subject and a human being the object, Tawaffa has no other meaning than that of taking away the soul, whether in sleep or death.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Sorry your argument is baseless from the start, since you do not comprehend linguistics and how they will differ according to context. Any argument based on how one word has to remain the same at all circumstance in varying contexts, is meaningless and erroneous and normally taken up by those who are limited in understanding of human languages.
[quote]
The word has been used in no less than 25 different places in the Quran and in no less than 23 of them the meaning is to take away the soul at the time of death. Only in two places the meaning is to take away the soul at the time of sleep; but here the qualifying word 'sleep' or 'night' has been added (Chap. Al-Anam, verse 60 & Chap. Al-Zumar, verse 42).
Ibrahim says: Like I said above, words will change in meaning according to context, hence what ever argument you have in mind, is an utter waste of time.
** The only way to establish accuracy of a given passage in scriptures is to look for its connection ( cross referencing) in an earlier revealed scripture.** In the case the story of Christ as found in the Qur'an can be cross referenced to, as found in the Gospel. Once you start reading those, you will find that, it will say Christ was raised up, not buried in any land whatsoever.
So your entire argument collapses and is only good for the consumption of deviants.
In addition , it is fact that you can address Allah (swt) by 99 names, which will differ , hence none of them have to be the same and can vary according to context, just like in Sanskrit I can use 50 different words to talk about the "sun"
This is the same in the English language too, here, toil around with these words and see why they have the same spelling but differ in pronunciation and meaning.
[quote]
* We must polish the Polish furniture.
* He could lead if he would get the lead out.
* The farm was used to produce produce.
* The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
* The soldier decided to desert in the desert.
* This was a good time to present the present.
(And this last could mean "gift" or "era of time")
* A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
* When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
* I did not object to the object.
* The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
* The bandage was wound around the wound.
* There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
* They were too close to the door to close it.
* The buck does funny things when the does are present.
* They sent a sewer down to stitch the tear in the sewer line.
* To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
* The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
* After a number of injections my jaw got number.
* Upon seeing the tear in my clothes I shed a tear.
* I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
[/quote]
sorry Zalim , your kind of argument is common amongst those who lack knowledge about linguistics and also amongst those who have no understanding about what it takes to translate sacred scriptures.
Hope that helps
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** wisdom is an essence , it is not a thought, nor a thing, not even an idea **
**Ibrahim **Sahib,
I am firm on my earlier notion that I will not argue with you. If you can’t agree with my faith at least try to live with it.
Here are a few books that might get you what you are looking for:
[li]**Jesus In India **(On-line format) - By *Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad *(as) [Paper back copy][/li][li]Where Did Jesus Die? - By by J.D Shams [/li][li]Saving the Savior : Did Christ Survive the Crucifixion? - By Abubakr Ben Ishmael Salahuddin[/li](who by the way is a new Ahmadi Muslim convert from America, really nice man)
For Ahmadi views on St. Paul
Christianity: A Journey from Facts to Fiction (On-line format) - By Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad [Paper back copy]
[ul]1. Jesus and Moses Are Buried in India, Birthplace of Abraham and the Hebrews by Gene D. Matlock
-
**The Jesus Mystery **by Janet Bock
-
Jesus of India by Maury Lee
-
**Jesus starb nicht in Kaschmir : ohne Kreuzestod kein Christentum ** by Salcia Landmann
-
Jesus in India : A Reexamination of Jesus’ Asian Traditions in the Light of Evidence Supporting Reincarnation by James W. Deardorff
-
Der universale Jesus : die Gestalt Jesu im kulturell-religièosen Umfeld Indien by Hanna Wolff
-
Jesus Lived in India : His Unknown Life Before and After the Crucifixion by Holger Kersten
-
**From Kashmir to Palestine **by Parameâsa Caudhuråi
.
.
.
List is long - Read Reviews here[/ul]
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 29, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ZII:
** Its funny how all the qadianies are talking about other things than asked. There is clearly contradictions in mirza´s words as they are described here, but instead of proven that wrong you are only proving that believing in mirza is not islamic.(is playing on horses described as islamic by mirza?)
May Allah grant us all Imaan and wisdom.**
[/quote]
I know a ton of Sunnis who drink, and met one that actualy ate pork... Now would you say that this one sunnis personal choices reflect those of the entire religion and all its members?
[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited May 29, 2002).]
Ibrahim says: salaam to all
Dear Ahmadjee you claim you will not discuss with me but you have the nerve to claim I am seeking for knowledge from you? Don’t you think, that is silly !, when I have presented evidence against what you have been deluding yourself with and you seem to have no capacity to refute them except to say I will not argue.
Ibrahim says: Did you per chance see me on the road chasing you or any ahmedi ??
Ibrahim says: This is down right silly and insulting, since you first tried to argue by stating it was such and such, but will not continue for whatever reason that is best known to you and yet you tell me I need to read books about ahmedism ?? seems as though you needed to do some advertisements about ahmadism rather than face the reality
Anyway visit the under mentioned links and read about how those claims which your writers make, are being refuted by Muslims. It is not me who need to know more but it is you who need to find out more about your errors.
http://irshad.org/idara/home.htm http://www.irshad.org/idara/home.htm http://alhafeez.org/rashid/ http://geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9684/exposing-ahmadiyah.htm http://webpages.marshall.edu/~laher1/qadiani.html http://geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9684/ahamadias-against.htm
I hope I don’t have to give you links on Islam the list can be very long but here is short cut http://www.geocities.com/zcdeen/
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** If clouds will remain in your mind tears will fall from the eyes **
Ibrahim, somehow you always avoid to answer precisely, what has been asked is totally opposite to long and ambiguous replies.
Again my question is: I need to know how this word “tawaf‘aytani” is translated differently in connection to Jesus and when it comes to other prophets it is different. (for references see above verses). Why there is hypocrisy? You think Christians are right that’s why in the light of Gospel you are interpreting it like that?
Also please shed some light on this remark of mine.
[quote]
Zalim says: Somehow Ahadith – the collection of the Traditions of the Holy Prophet(sa) has covered each and every subject of Quran and in some book has been dealt at great lengths. Amazingly all these books of Ahadith and Sunnah are silent on the issue of Jesus alive ascension to Sky.. none claim the story as today’s Muslims narrate. (GOT REFERENCE?)
As it is evident from the pages of History that every Nation of Every Prophet has lost the real essence of their teachings and so are the Muslims.. to support their beliefs that Jesus Ascended to Haven and Will descend down in later days, Muslims have crafted a fairy tale by picking up one word from Quran and One word from Ahadith i.e Rafa (as physical ascension) from Quran and Nazul (as Physical descent) from Ahadith. If anyone with a keen eye, browse through any of the Arabic Lexicon and look at this fact that the Opposite of RAFA is Tawadu and the Opposite of Nazul is A’Saud, the words RAFA and Nazul are no way opposite or related to each other.. they are just used to support their false beliefs.
[/quote]
If you still think there is no error than keep lurking. However I have more contradiction to your concept of Jesus Alive Ascension.. buckle up !
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited May 30, 2002).]