Paul - Rs:5 lac offer to ahmedis

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21

**Ibrahim **Sahib,

According to your very basic questions like the 'tribes of Israel' makes me believe that you have very little knowledge about the Ahmadiyya belief on Jesus (as) or even Biblical history. One can only guess that your knowledge is limited to the sites you mentioned above.

So, there is no point me re-typing all that is already been written in the books I mentioned, which is in response to the questions you asked. If you don't have the heart to buy those books, at least read the ones that are online.

Lastly, I don't find any difference in you or people like Andhra & co. who come here and ask questions out of ignorance. They don't know the traditions, the Sunnah or the Quran but only read it with the intention of finding faults. True believers go to the source to find the truth not to some hate sites and copy/paste their queries.

Read Jesus in India, Kist-e-Nooh, Anjam-e-Athum yourself and then pose your questions.

I hope you wouldn't find my suggestions silly or insulting this time around.

22

[quote]
Originally posted by Zalim: Again my question is: I need to know how this word “tawaf‘aytani” is translated differently in connection to Jesus
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : salaams to all

Zalim dear , Firstly can you quote a verse in the Qur’an other than 5:117 where the Arabic word, “tawaffaitani” as written, is being used, and translated in the English language other wise, as you tried to conclude earlier and insist I did not address it, when I said is was baseless argument and one should cross refrence with eralier scriptures for a better understanding.

That should answer your question, since now you will have to do your home work, not give me work to do.

[quote]
and when it comes to other prophets it is different.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Because Christ (pbuh) was not like any other Prophet.

1) all prophets had to live on the planet as common man for 40 years before being anointed to Prophet hood.

2) Because Christ (pbuh) preached from Birth and was Spirit and Word from Allah (swt)

3) Christ (pbuh) did not have a father and was a word that became flesh, just like Adam (as)

4) because Christ (pbuh) was a SIGN for mankind , meaning when ever he will be sent, man will be able to acknowledge Allah (swt) as their only Creator and any doubts they had will disappear.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 4.506 Narrated by Abu Huraira

The Prophet said, "When any human being is born, Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, ** except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed,** for he touched the placenta-cover instead."

[quote]
Why there is hypocrisy?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what hypocrisy are you talking about? It seems your understanding is erroneous and lacking, as such you see, hypocrisy where there is none.

[quote]
You think Christians are right that’s why in the light of Gospel you are interpreting it like that?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hello, Muslims understand Islam in light of what is revealed in the Qur’an and conveyed by the Prophet of Islam, and I use all scriptures to understand the events that had taken place in the past, I quoted a hadith and asked you, did the Prophet(pbuh) erred or not??? Did you have any answer or are you going to sing your song only??

[quote]
Also please shed some light on this remark of mine. Zalim says: Somehow Ahadith – the collection of the Traditions of the Holy Prophet(sa) has covered each and every subject of Quran and in some book has been dealt at great lengths. Amazingly all these books of Ahadith and Sunnah are silent on the issue of Jesus alive ascension to Sky.. none claim the story as today’s Muslims narrate. (GOT REFERENCE?)
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Simply because the Prophet of Islam was sent to establish Islam, not to promote Christ (pbuh) miracles , Christ had his time and when his time was over, people ended up calling him son of God because of such miracles and today many call upon Jesus instead of Allah, whom Christ himself worshipped as written in the Gospels. Thus the Arabs were only given the message that dealt with establishing Islam, whatever mistakes made by earlier generations have been corrected in the Qur’an and revealed to the Muslims.

Second when even the miracles performed by the Prophet of Islam is not highlighted by the Muslims, why would they than be talking about what happened to Christ?

Third

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 4.657 Narrated by Abu Huraira

** Allah's Apostle said,** "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, ** surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non-Muslims). ** Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) ** But must believe in him** (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)

Read!

4: 159 And there is none of the People of the Book ** but must believe in him before his death; ** and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them

Ibrahim says: hence any Muslim who did not believe that Christ was a Spirit and WORD from Allah (swt) that turned flesh and was sent as a SIGN for mankind and cannot be harmed by mankind and had been RAISED up, when they tried to harm him, by Allah (swt) to be SENT down again is not a Muslim but a deviant.

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 5772 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Salam

The description of Muhammad is written in the Torah and also that ** Jesus, son of Mary, will be buried along with him** . AbuMawdud said that a place for a grave had remained in the house.
Tirmidhi transmitted it.

[quote]
As it is evident from the pages of History that every Nation of Every Prophet has lost the real essence of their teachings and so are the Muslims..
[/quote]

Ibrahim say : what a silly statement! , so long as the Qur’an is present on this planet, the teachings of Islam are INTACT, when the Qur’an disappears, due to any one trying to alter it , that is the time when Islam will be lost on this planet. Just as what took place in ancient times and to earlier revelations. .

[quote]
to support their beliefs that Jesus Ascended to Haven and Will descend down in later days, Muslims have crafted a fairy tale by picking up one word from Quran and One word from Ahadith i.e Rafa (as physical ascension) from Quran and Nazul (as Physical descent) from Ahadith.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: you mean that is what you teacher who came into being a 113 years ago taught you? Whereas Muslims for 1423 years have the same understanding as Christians concerning Christ and the Christians will claim their is 2000 years old

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.652 Narrated by Abu Huraira

** Allah's Apostle said,** "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. ** The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one." **

Ibrahim says; ** And No man or prophet will have two mothers or fathers, ** thus when Christ will be buried next to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are you claiming he is going to be born by another father and mother? Thus he will descend, and that can only be done by those that had ascended by the Grace of Allah (swt)

[quote]
If you still think there is no error than keep lurking. However I have more contradiction to your concept of Jesus Alive Ascension.. buckle up !
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ah yes like you tried to claim Jesus was buried (his grave) in Kashmir and when asked was his grave 13 feet long you disappear for good, right? Yes I will buckle up when I think, I need to, but not because of an ahamedi making his silly claims of prophet hood and Muslims being in error for 1310 years and suddenly a false prophet revealed the truth.

Work on this hadiths………..

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 6931 Narrated by Hudhayfah ibn Usayd Ghifari

** Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion) He said: ** What do you discuss about? (the Companions) said: We are discussing about the Last Hour. Thereupon he said: ** It will not come until you see ten signs** before and (in this connection) he made a mention of the smoke, Dajjal, the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, ** the descent of Jesus son of Mary (Allah be pleased with him), ** The Gog and Magog, and landslides in three places, one in the east, one in the west and one in Arabia at the end of which fire would burn forth from the Yemen, and would drive people to the place of their assembly.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 4.658 Narrated by Abu Huraira

** Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur'an and not by the law of Gospel ** (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7).

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4310 Narrated by AbuHurayrah

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him).** He will descent (to the earth). ** When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years ** and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.**

Ibrahim says; so carry on with you delusions, the ones invented by shaitan and his followers, but Muslims know better than ahmedis and Allah (swt) knows best .

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** An idle mind is the devils workshop **

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited May 30, 2002).]

23

I think Ibrahim is really an Ahmedi in his heart.

24

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: According to your very basic questions like the 'tribes of Israel' makes me believe that you have very little knowledge about the Ahmadiyya belief on Jesus (as) or even Biblical history.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : salaams to all

Dear Ahmadjee , I asked you a number of questions, for which, ** you have given NO reply but only make such silly accusations,** which is just another lame excuse for your failure!

[quote]
One can only guess that your knowledge is limited to the sites you mentioned above.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what you guess and what is , is two different things, so If and when you can come with answers NOT excuses, feel free to tell us about it!

[quote]
So, there is no point me re-typing all that is already been written in the books I mentioned, which is in response to the questions you asked. If you don't have the heart to buy those books, at least read the ones that are online.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hello, were you not the taking a jap me , at every corner about my long posts? Now you are asking me to go an read book for your answer?? Talk about bias, that 's a shame because you just made a mockery of yourself.

On the other hand, only the ignorant tells a person read this book and you will have an answer when the question is very specific to a particular matter. This is like telling a Christian, who enquires, read the Qur'an and you will know what it says concerning Christ.

[quote]
Lastly, I don't find any difference in you or people like Andhra & co.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hmmm, so when you are unable to make your stand, you start painting me with others, as per your whims and fancies??

[quote]
who come here and ask questions out of ignorance.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: can you tell me which question, I have asked you, that was based on Ignorance?

[quote]
They don't know the traditions, the Sunnah or the Quran but only read it with the intention of finding faults.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says hello, dear, are you awake?? or have you been day dreaming all this while,?? this thread is about Mirza Gulam Ahmad, making false claims, not about sunnah or Qur'an.

[quote]
True believers go to the source to find the truth not to some hate sites and copy/paste their queries.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : you mean true believers of false prophets and false preachers will end up being deluded by ahamadi claims and avoid rational questions., don't you?

[quote]
Read Jesus in India, Kist-e-Nooh, Anjam-e-Athum yourself and then pose your questions.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee I rely solely on scripture and scared texts even avoiding commentary where possible , so can you tell me when the above writing was revealed by Allah (swt), so that I need to study them???

[quote]
I hope you wouldn't find my suggestions silly or insulting this time around.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says :** In fact I do, since you did not address anything related to this thread nor any question that I raised but went on to insinuate that I am ignorant and was here trying to behave like Andhra the hindu. **

So unless you can redeem your credibility by proving otherwise , I would conclude that you just slandered me, for no rhyme or reason , simply because I started this thread which exposed your follies.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** its when you run away making lame accusations, you are most likely to stumble and break your neck **

25

Oh wow…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

That comments gonna really get Ibrahim hot under the collar. Insult his family, his faith, his nation, but never call him that..

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

26

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says :** In fact I do, since you did not address anything related to this thread nor any question that I raised but went on to insinuate that I am ignorant and was here trying to behave like Andhra the hindu. **

So unless you can redeem your credibility by proving otherwise , I would conclude that you just slandered me, for no rhyme or reason , simply because I started this thread which exposed your follies.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** its when you run away making lame accusations, you are most likely to stumble and break your neck ****
[/quote]

Ahmedjee gave you all those referances and you say you dont read anyhting except that which is revealed by god?
Your reasoning is totally flawed here. The reason is that the Koran is open to interpretation. It can be interpreted one way or it can be interpreted another. God intended it to be this way, because he did not want to give us every answer. Instead, he wanted us to THINK. Only god knows for certain which is the right interpretation. All we as humans can do is to look for scientific evidence to back up our interpretations. If there is evidence to support the Jesus in Kashmir idea, then perhaps there is reason to believe he was. If you want to have a descent discussion, then you have to look at all the resources, including those that are not related to the Koran, because they may be used to coraborate the interpretation that Ahmedjee is proposing. If you are just going to limit this to your interpretation of the Koran, then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

27

[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
Ahmedjee gave you all those referances and you say you dont read anyhting except that which is revealed by god?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: greetings of peace to all

Dear Adnan Ahmed, frankly speaking I wanted to ignore your posts, since you seem to say whatever that comes to your mind all over the place, although this is public forum where all can say what they like, this cannot be approved in a religious environment and this being the religion forum, your posts don’t seem to have much weight.. anyway, in order to show some respect towards another fellow being.

You asked a question above, shall I tell you to read the Qur’an and give many links where you can get answers for the above question or should I quote from them and answer your question??

So you see, Thinking is needed in order to understands things and it seems you have FAILED to think, that is why , you felt you had to say something with out THINKING to defend ahmadjee, since your faith is on-the-line in this thread.

[quote]
Your reasoning is totally flawed here.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: yes I know, ahmadis always feel that way, when their faith is being questioned. In fact all religionist use this, to down play the other.

[quote]
The reason is that the Koran is open to interpretation.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : that is silly, the Qur’an not Koran, is not open to interpretation according to your whims and fancies but it can be misunderstood, mistranslated or misconstrued. At the same time the Qur’an has different contents that are meant for different time frames where it will be better understood as well as contents that are meant to be allegorical and all these have been explained to the Muslims by the Prophet (pbuh), which many are unaware of, which leads many to think, what they want about it.

[quote]
It can be interpreted one way or it can be interpreted another. God intended it to be this way, because he did not want to give us every answer.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: this is naïve but than again that is all you know it seems.

[quote]
Instead, he wanted us to THINK.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; I assume you had been given brains to do that, and the reason why you are on this planet is such that you will learn to use the brains to its maximum capacity and understand that the TRUTH will always STAND out CLEAR from errors.

[quote]
Only god knows for certain which is the right interpretation.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Firstly there is No God, which is derived from the German word “guth” second If you want to be a Muslim, the Creator named himself Allah (swt) try to use that instead of God . Not abig issue but just making it CLEAR for you.

Third ,are you going to speak/conjecture for Allah (swt) too ?? Or do you suppose Allah (swt) made a mistake (nauzubillah) by saying

3: 7 ** He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. ** But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical ** seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings** but no one knows its hidden meanings ** except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge** say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord"; ** and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.**

[quote]
All we as humans can do is to look for scientific evidence to back up our interpretations.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: man you are naïve indeed! , Islam does not need science to back it up, at any time! Islam is the foundation for all knowledge because all knowledge comes from Allah (swt) and Islam was His creation.

[quote]
If there is evidence to support the Jesus in Kashmir idea, then perhaps there is reason to believe he was.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Not when the Qur’an says otherwise. Meaning when Allah (swt) revealed it, who is there that can alter it?

[quote]
If you want to have a descent discussion, then you have to look at all the resources, including those that are not related to the Koran, because they may be used to coraborate the interpretation that Ahmedjee is proposing.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : ahmadjee is not proposing anything, he is avoiding discussion , because his faith is founded on ahmadism which was created by this erroneous books conceived by one man a 113 years ago, those who are aware of it errors, do not need to read that book, in order to understand it is erroneous, they merely have to ask simple questions , which BTW none of you ahmadis are able to answer or wish to avoid in this thread, since that will expose your follies.

[quote]
If you are just going to limit this to your interpretation of the Koran, then there is no point in continuing this discussion.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I don’t use my interpretation of Qur’an, I accept any knowledgeable Muslims understanding of the Qur’an, so long as that is what has been conveyed in the Qur’an as well as by the Prophet {pbuh} who was assigned as “the” representative to expound the Qur’an to mankind.

** At the same time the ahmadis are altering the Qur’an by their invented notions/conjectures in their translations, which they are actively doing in remote languages in order to establish their faith , which seems pleasing to them and that is why they are not considered Muslims as ahmadis practice ahmadism and Muslims practice Islam.**

LISTEN! to your Lord and Creator, He knows best as to why you and ahmadis are full of doubts........

10:69 Say: ** "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper." **

10:100 No soul can believe except by the Will of Allah ** and He will place Doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. **

101 Say: "Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth"; ** but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not.**

Hope that helps,

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** politicians try to chose sides on a round planet – how silly! **

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited June 01, 2002).]

28

Your so ignorant yaar… I wouldnt be surprised if you did ignore me, i expect that from people of your mental depravity.
I dont say your logic is flawed because you are questioning Ahmediyat. If you are half as intelligent as you claim you think you are, would realize that.
Here is a question, but dont think to hard..
How do you know that YOU haven’t misunderstood the Koran? How does anyone know they have the right interpretation? We are all humans of the same mental capacity, we all read the same passages, how can any one person claim that he is supperior in his understanding then another?
My point was that the KORAN IS open to interpretation, and to back up our interpretation we have to rely on non Islamic sources. Thats not blasphemy thats fact. But your just gonna wiggle your way out of a descent conversation by saying,im just an ignoratn Ahmedi and The “Koran is the Koran”
Its silly insecure people like you who to take up this line of reaoning when a descent philisophical question is asked. I beg you to answer my question though, how do YOU know you have the right interpretation?
Im not inventing anything… Why do you think there are different sects in Islam? Because they interpret things differently despite reading the same scripture. Why is it that Osama Bin Laden can justify his terrorism throught the Koran while others take the same passages and interpret them as something peaceful?
Fact is, you are only a simple human being, you dont know anything except that what you think you know.
As for you igonoring me, thats the funniest thing I have read so far.
You are simply to ignorant a person, im sorry to say, to speak to in any logical way…
If anything, I should be ignoring you

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Ahmedjee must have far more patience then I do, I just think your statements reflect how Jahil you really are…
No amount of evidence will convnce you of anything except what you THINK is true. I wont reply to you anymore. If you want to start forums on discussions on Ahmediyaat, then you will have to be more open minded. Like prophet Muhammad (pbuh) put up with the Jahils of his time, I think we can make the same sacrafice.

[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited June 02, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited June 02, 2002).]