Patriotic Pakistani

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

What defines it? If you are not patriotic are you a Ghaddar, i.e. Black and White? There is no middle ground?

There was a discussion a while back Islam first or Pakistan and I don’t want to start that debate again. But it will be interesting to know if some of you think that putting Islam first makes you unpatriotic? The intent of this debate is to define Patriotic Pakistani, how do you define one? Is it when you support Musharaf and his antics? Do the comments by Altaf against Pakistan makes you ghaddar?

IMO patriotism is over rated and politicians use it against their own people, emotional black-mail. But based on some discussions here I would like to open this up for debate and see if we can come-up with a definition for Patriotic Pakistani.

2

I think it appropriate that I reply first:)
A patriotic Pakistani is not one that supports everything his govt does, nor is he a die hard Islamist. A patriotic Pakistani is someone who see's the potential in his country and will support it and continues to be a Pakistani regardless of how screwed up the country gets, all in the belief that Pakistan can be paramount amongst all nations if its given the chance. A Patriotic Pakistani belives in his country and belives in its future...

3

so basically heavy on belief and faith in the country ... what happened to actions?

A person can be a die hard Islamist with the best of intentions for the country. His belief might be that Pakistan as a nation must prosper as an Islamic state and he tries his best and devotes all his time for this cause for his country... then why is he not a patriotic Pakistani?

on the other hand a person can support the government with the thought that may be this way country will benefit with less or no opposition from within the country... giving govt. full authority to head in the direction that the leaders see fit... why can't he/she be a Patriotic Pakistani?

You mentioned “continues to be a Pakistani”, would you care to elaborate what that means? So if a person living in Pakistan has dual nationality lets say UK or US with Pakistani passport for just in case if he/she has to bail out or may be the justification is for kids future etc. would that person not be Patriotic Pakistani?

Are there degrees of being a Patriotic Pakistani? Is it necessary to be patriotic?

4

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
so basically heavy on belief and faith in the country ... what happened to actions?

A person can be a die hard Islamist with the best of intentions for the country. His belief might be that Pakistan as a nation must prosper as an Islamic state and he tries his best and devotes all his time for this cause for his country... then why is he not a patriotic Pakistani?

on the other hand a person can support the government with the thought that may be this way country will benefit with less or no opposition from within the country... giving govt. full authority to head in the direction that the leaders see fit... why can't he/she be a Patriotic Pakistani?

You mentioned “continues to be a Pakistani”, would you care to elaborate what that means? So if a person living in Pakistan has dual nationality lets say UK or US with Pakistani passport for just in case if he/she has to bail out or may be the justification is for kids future etc. would that person not be Patriotic Pakistani?

Are there degrees of being a Patriotic Pakistani? Is it necessary to be patriotic?
[/QUOTE]

In Pakistan, actions get you killed, or labeled a Kafir. If you stand up for minorities for example, someone is going to either kill you for your trouble, or no one will listen and you will be wasting your time.
I think Pakistan should be secular, but there is no chance I could make that happen.
All our countries social ills like honor killings, panchyats etc...

5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
so basically heavy on belief and faith in the country ... what happened to actions?

A person can be a die hard Islamist with the best of intentions for the country. His belief might be that Pakistan as a nation must prosper as an Islamic state and he tries his best and devotes all his time for this cause for his country... then why is he not a patriotic Pakistani?

on the other hand a person can support the government with the thought that may be this way country will benefit with less or no opposition from within the country... giving govt. full authority to head in the direction that the leaders see fit... why can't he/she be a Patriotic Pakistani?

You mentioned “continues to be a Pakistani”, would you care to elaborate what that means? So if a person living in Pakistan has dual nationality lets say UK or US with Pakistani passport for just in case if he/she has to bail out or may be the justification is for kids future etc. would that person not be Patriotic Pakistani?

Are there degrees of being a Patriotic Pakistani? Is it necessary to be patriotic?
[/QUOTE]

In Pakistan, actions get you killed, or labeled a Kafir. If you stand up for minorities for example, someone is going to either kill you for your trouble, or no one will listen and you will be wasting your time.
I think Pakistan should be secular, but there is no chance I could make that happen.
All our countries social ills like honor killings, panchyats etc... No one Pakistan cares enough to do anything, and the people who can do something, have no desire to actually make any changes, they only make speeches.
You have feudalism, exploitations... But you can do nothing because those who are responsible for the exploitation are in power.
All you can do for Pakistan is offer whatever little service you can in the form of legal remitance or if you can afford it, then some sort of investment.
Other then that, all you can do is belive that there are better times ahead and not abandon that hope.
TheIslamic hardliners maybe patriots, but their are flawed in their actions. Their actions only make things worse, and the country would be better of if they kept their "action" to themselves.
Sadly, sanity has been sidelined by the fanatics in Pakistan. People who are secular and tolerant and moderate no longer have a voice... The country is held hostage by these religous psychopaths at gun point.

6

Hi! Chachoo,

My believe is as follows:
If anyone is pakistani , but not patriotic, he may not be Ghadar, he may be Jahil, without knowledge. Dousroun key sunta hou ga. Because such people are less educated they are unable to join meeting, gatherings with educated people. As our Pakistani culture is too much status conscious. We do not meet less educated people.We like to interact our kind of people. So they only listen to Matoo thats all. Where as educated Matoo are also status conscious, they do not join low, less educated people gathering or they do not accept uneducated people's invitations.

Those who seem to be non patriotic are infact either uninformed; about many ups and down of the history, they can not forsee at all. They are in false deception that we pakistanis, are very very strong. They do not want to harm pakistan at all. OR

They are selfish; they only care about their relations with some countries; on whose payrole are they. Truth is always bitter, but it is the truth.

7

[quote]
In Pakistan, actions get you killed, or labeled a Kafir. If you stand up for minorities for example, someone is going to either kill you for your trouble, or no one will listen and you will be wasting your time.
[/quote]

So instead of working to rid the evils we should just be silent believers and hold he title of Patriotic Pakistani.

[quote]
I think Pakistan should be secular, but there is no chance I could make that happen.
All our countries social ills like honor killings, panchyats etc... No one Pakistan cares enough to do anything, and the people who can do something, have no desire to actually make any changes, they only make speeches.
[/quote]

These are “social” evils being secular will not resolve these issues. Look around you neighboring “secular” countries these or similar social evils exist there as well. Blaming all social evils on religion does not do anyone any good. I do see your point though that religion is used to cover those things up but if religion is not there, it will be something else… So lets address the actual issue.

[quote]
You have feudalism, exploitations... But you can do nothing because those who are responsible for the exploitation are in power.
All you can do for Pakistan is offer whatever little service you can in the form of legal remitance or if you can afford it, then some sort of investment.
Other then that, all you can do is belive that there are better times ahead and not abandon that hope.
[/quote]

Believe is a part of your emotion of being patriotic, no doubt. But there has to be more than that. We all admit that top crop of our corrupts are in power so what can we do, I ask the same question. There has to be a better answer than just believing in better times.

[quote]
The Islamic hardliners maybe patriots, but their are flawed in their actions. Their actions only make things worse, and the country would be better of if they kept their "action" to themselves.
[/quote]

This one side of the argument but then there is the other side which has the same sentiments as you do for Islamists. So now what, how do we move forward? You can’t just shut one side down, we are trying to establish democracy and all sides have a voice.

[quote]
Sadly, sanity has been sidelined by the fanatics in Pakistan. People who are secular and tolerant and moderate no longer have a voice... The country is held hostage by these religous psychopaths at gun point.
[/quote]

Again using religion to cover the incompetence of “secular and tolerant and moderate” Patriotic Pakistanis. They lack the passion, vision and drive hence no voice all they do is grab the largest available flag and wave it on the 14th each year and listen to Jazba-e-Junoon and share few thumkas curse few Mullahs to renew their vows as “tolerant and moderate patriots” and back to their “own” lives..

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
Hi! Chachoo,

My believe is as follows:
If anyone is pakistani , but not patriotic, he may not be Ghadar, he may be Jahil, without knowledge. Dousroun key sunta hou ga. Because such people are less educated they are unable to join meeting, gatherings with educated people. As our Pakistani culture is too much status conscious. We do not meet less educated people.We like to interact our kind of people. So they only listen to Matoo thats all. Where as educated Matoo are also status conscious, they do not join low, less educated people gathering or they do not accept uneducated people's invitations.
[/quote]

Ok so you are either patriotic or Jahil… how about if you are a PhD and you don’t consider yourself a patriotic, what are you educated Jahil? I don’t see the link between being education and patriotism. I do see the link of brain washing for a particular brand of patriotism while being educated for sure.

As far as mixing of different social classes, that kind of behavior exists in all societies with varying degrees. It is a human nature to stick to their own kind and some politicians know this very well and use that as an exploitation tool.

[quote]
Those who seem to be non patriotic are infact either uninformed; about many ups and down of the history, they can not forsee at all. They are in false deception that we pakistanis, are very very strong. They do not want to harm pakistan at all. OR

They are selfish; they only care about their relations with some countries; on whose payrole are they. Truth is always bitter, but it is the truth.
[/QUOTE]

Care to explain this a bit more, I lost you here.

9

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *

So instead of working to rid the evils we should just be silent believers and hold he title of Patriotic Pakistani.

These are “social” evils being secular will not resolve these issues. Look around you neighboring “secular” countries these or similar social evils exist there as well. Blaming all social evils on religion does not do anyone any good. I do see your point though that religion is used to cover those things up but if religion is not there, it will be something else… So lets address the actual issue.

Believe is a part of your emotion of being patriotic, no doubt. But there has to be more than that. We all admit that top crop of our corrupts are in power so what can we do, I ask the same question. There has to be a better answer than just believing in better times.

This one side of the argument but then there is the other side which has the same sentiments as you do for Islamists. So now what, how do we move forward? You can’t just shut one side down, we are trying to establish democracy and all sides have a voice.

Again using religion to cover the incompetence of “secular and tolerant and moderate” Patriotic Pakistanis. They lack the passion, vision and drive hence no voice all they do is grab the largest available flag and wave it on the 14th each year and listen to Jazba-e-Junoon and share few thumkas curse few Mullahs to renew their vows as “tolerant and moderate patriots” and back to their “own” lives..
[/QUOTE]

Patriotism is a state of mind. Its how you precieve yourself, not how others precieve you. Terrorists and fantics are thus also patriots in their own mind. Whether I can take concrete action towards bettering Pakistan is irrelevent. Point is I would if I could.
And this isnt a religous debate. Secularism can help promote equal rights and freedom of speech etc. Whether secularism is the sole way of provinding these rights is up for debate, I for one think they are. Its the natural evolution of any state.
Finally, I just dont want my butt getting blown up... Risking ones life is fine for midless drones, but normal people cant be expected to give up everything for some ideology or for nationalism. It would be useless anyways, no one would care.
I dont like Jihadis and I dont like a religious states. I think they are a plague.
Religion is great if its not used to oppress people and take away their rights. In Pakistan religion is a tool used by the state to save their own butts from the fantics who use religion to suppress the entire nation.

10

[quote]
Patriotism is a state of mind. Its how you precieve yourself, not how others precieve you. Terrorists and fantics are thus also patriots in their own mind. Whether I can take concrete action towards bettering Pakistan is irrelevent. Point is I would if I could.
[/quote]

State of mind and how you perceive yourself… then how come everyone else is passing judgment these days who is a patriot and who is not? So are these people including Mushy are wrong? Based on your definition patriotism of a person should not be judged since it is a personal matter, i.e. state of mind.

BTW – I was not picking on you I was using it figuratively for any individual who claims to be a patriot. Actions are not irrelevant it shows your state of mind and your resolve to reach the goals set by your state of mind. In a way it is a measure of your state of mind.

[quote]
And this isnt a religous debate. Secularism can help promote equal rights and freedom of speech etc. Whether secularism is the sole way of provinding these rights is up for debate, I for one think they are. Its the natural evolution of any state.
[/quote]

Natural evolution? How so?

[quote]
Finally, I just dont want my butt getting blown up... Risking ones life is fine for midless drones, but normal people cant be expected to give up everything for some ideology or for nationalism. It would be useless anyways, no one would care.
[/quote]

People live and die for their ideologies, beliefs, and nationalism. It is a very well known fact, right or wrong is up for debate, I am just stating a fact based on thousands of years of history. You don’t have to give up everything but you have to be willing to do something and give-up something for your ideologies and beliefs else people won’t care, and at that point it becomes lip service. BTW I am not advocating the blowing up of one’s butt, there are other ways where one can contribute and make a difference…

[quote]
I dont like Jihadis and I dont like a religious states. I think they are a plague.
Religion is great if its not used to oppress people and take away their rights. In Pakistan religion is a tool used by the state to save their own butts from the fantics who use religion to suppress the entire nation.
[/quote]

Oppression stems from corrupt politicians and community leaders which is the product of uneducated/unaware masses, by educated I don’t mean Bachelors and Masters. Religion is close to the hearts of many and hence a perfect tool for them to exploit people. So removing religion or by suppressing it does not do any good, it actually makes things worse, people will fight back.

11

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *

State of mind and how you perceive yourself… then how come everyone else is passing judgment these days who is a patriot and who is not? So are these people including Mushy are wrong? Based on your definition patriotism of a person should not be judged since it is a personal matter, i.e. state of mind.

BTW – I was not picking on you I was using it figuratively for any individual who claims to be a patriot. Actions are not irrelevant it shows your state of mind and your resolve to reach the goals set by your state of mind. In a way it is a measure of your state of mind.

Natural evolution? How so?

People live and die for their ideologies, beliefs, and nationalism. It is a very well known fact, right or wrong is up for debate, I am just stating a fact based on thousands of years of history. You don’t have to give up everything but you have to be willing to do something and give-up something for your ideologies and beliefs else people won’t care, and at that point it becomes lip service. BTW I am not advocating the blowing up of one’s butt, there are other ways where one can contribute and make a difference…

Oppression stems from corrupt politicians and community leaders which is the product of uneducated/unaware masses, by educated I don’t mean Bachelors and Masters. Religion is close to the hearts of many and hence a perfect tool for them to exploit people. So removing religion or by suppressing it does not do any good, it actually makes things worse, people will fight back.
[/QUOTE]

No one should be passing judgement on anyone. Im believe anyone that says they are patriotic. What I dont always agree in is how the express that patriotism. If I cant prove im patriotic though, then you will just have to take my word for it.
Actions are relevent, if those actions have even a remote chance of having an effect. There is nothng at this time that we can do to help the country in any real way. Sure we can send money home, or go and work and teach or do something like that, but your not really helping anything. Im not averse to going back to pak and living there given the right circumstances, but how would that change anything? There is no democracy, no one has a voice there, and anyone who tries to have a voice is suppressed.
Secularism is the natural evolution of a society because, and this is what I think, not everyone will agree, every society reralizes that mixing religion with state is a really really bad idea. As your society become more industrialized, more wealth is going around, living standards improve, education, health all these things improve, and people start to become more liberal. A secular society will hasten this progress, but even in a religious state such progress is inevitable.
Eventually the religous state will have to ease its restrictions, allow people more and more rights. Women for example will become far more vociferous in demand of their rights and in the repealing of such laws as the hadood ordinance for example.
Your country becomes more connected with the rest of the world, new ideas flow into your society, laws have to change in order to promote this globalization which is the engine of your economy. Religous laws which are to inflexible have to change to meet changeing times. Laws have to be made practical, they have to be made so that they inspire confidence in your country, by investors etc.
And eventually any country that truly wants to progress must not opress anyone or make anyone feel opressed. This promotes biterness which can lead to instability. So most discrimnatory laws against minorites and anyone else including women will have to be made fair or repealed. Following this course, every nation will become secular eventually. If not they will either disintegrate or be stuck in a backward society.
I dont know, but I think your doing yourserlf, your god, your family, and your nation a bigger favor by not becoming a martyr.
If you have a way to help Pak then be my guest. I can only do little things, that will go unnoticed for the most part. Thats all I have to give at this point.
No one is suppressing religion, for some reason, religous people think a secular society suppresses religion. Turkey is an extremist secular country, so they dont count. Take UK, US... UK is secualr yet they still have a huge devout Muslim population who really have nothing to complain about. US also has a huge devout Muslim, Jewish and Christian population and still secular

12

too much pride and no determination!

13

PaKpatriot1 … My intent for this thread was to get a some consensus on the definition of Patriotic Pakistani but the discussion is going in some other direction, i.e. Pakistan should be a secular or a religious state, I will try to stick to the original discussion but I will respond to the latter part as well very briefly.

“Qatra qatra darya banta hay..” so every little bit counts and yes it makes a difference. You might not see the effects immediately but over time with persistence it does become a changing force. But if one was to give up saying what can I do I am just a regular Joe that is when the nation starts to suffer and head towards decline. This is somewhat relevant but again not the focal point of this thread.

Thread after thread in this forum you start to see pattern, people who support Mushy and Co. and/or secularism claim to be more patriotic than who don’t. And on top of that the other side is dubbed as “Ghaddar”… but by your definition no one can be Ghaddar if a person was to declare himself/herself a patriot.

Here is the thing, when you claim to be something at some point in your life you get judged on it. For example I can say I am the best damn programmer in my company, I will get judged on it at some point. If I say I am the best cricketer I will be judged on it when I play. Allah (SWT) on the Day of Judgment will judge my claim of being a Muslim. My point is there has to be some way to measure one’s claims. Phokay fire can hold up for only so long.

Do you really have to be a patriot to be a good citizen? Can you be a moderate patriot or no patriot at all but still be a good citizen and not dubbed as Ghaddar? Do we need a nation of patriots? Or may be I should be asking do we have a nation of patriots?

As far as secularism thing goes. If the majority in a country opts to be ruled by Islamic laws then so be it, the society/nation decided how they want to be ruled. Don’t force secularism down their throats. There are many examples of secular states failing and many examples of successful Islamic states and vice versa.

14

Chachoo jee, I agree with what you said for the most part. There has to be a criteria by which your so called Patriotism can be judged. But I dont think that has to be an actual physical act. The way Pakistan is today, simply believing it has a future and still having hope is I think enough to fit the criteria of a patriot. Look how miserable everyone in Pakistan is, hardly anyone has any hope, everyone feels like a victim. Mohajirs, Balochis, Sindhis, and every joe on the street, everyone is disillusioned, they dont care about the country. Look at India, look how proud they are, they are always glowing with pride, compare that to the look of our people. For someone to still defend Pakistan, and to believe in it and still have hope is I think, saying a lot.
Im sure Qatra Qatra can make a difference in some ways and im all for it, but Qatra will not do in Pakistan, what Pakistan needs is a revolution. I mean there are such powerful forces at play, Army wil not allow proper democracy, but then neither will the politicians. Feudals make sure to keep their poor indentured servents as just that poor and indentured. You cant fight them because they are in charge of making the very laws you want to repeal. Religious fanatics rule everything, and you can never fight them under threat of being seriously hurt or worse. Im not sure which Qatra we should be putting in but I dont think any of the real problem will ever be solved through my meager donations.
And no you dont have to be a patriot to be a good citizen. Being a citizen of Pakistan is hard enough sometimes, being a citizen and a patriot that cant always be easy. In Pakistan we all know that their are actually different kinds of citizens, first class who are Sunni and perhaps Shia, and then the second class who are Hindus, Chiristians, Sikhs and Parsi, and then the third class who are Ahmedi. But then thats justice in an Islamic society.
Im all for Islamic society if that wat people want, but is it asking to much to also have a tolerance and respect in this so called Islamic society?

15

Here is another gem... They are putting the Religion section back into the Passport, infact it will have it own page where it not only states your religion but also whether you belive in "khutmul Nubwat." All this to supress a comunity smaller then the Christians. Anyways forget about Ahmedis and just see this for what it is. Another retarded move by an insecure nation to feign its Islamic credentials. How stupid it is.
And yet I still have hope that things will get better!

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *
Here is another gem... They are putting the Religion section back into the Passport, infact it will have it own page where it not only states your religion but also whether you belive in "khutmul Nubwat." All this to supress a comunity smaller then the Christians. Anyways forget about Ahmedis and just see this for what it is. Another retarded move by an insecure nation to feign its Islamic credentials. How stupid it is.
And yet I still have hope that things will get better!
[/QUOTE]

Here's a better solution: Let the people decide if they want such a section in their passport.

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by EkSamosa: *

Here's a better solution: Let the people decide if they want such a section in their passport.
[/QUOTE]

[Edited]

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by EkSamosa: *

Here's a better solution: Let the people decide if they want such a section in their passport.
[/QUOTE]

That would be great, maybe another referandum... We all know how fair those are. Anyways, im telling you, let the people decide and the fantics will make sure the results reflect what they want through what ever means necessary.
Plus when something is clearly wrong, its the govt job to step in and rectify it even if it has popular following. Just because the people want it, doesnt make it right. I mean, what if every Pakistani wanted the Minorities either deported or sent to concentration camps... should the govt do just that?

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *

That would be great, maybe another referandum... We all know how fair those are. Anyways, im telling you, let the people decide and the fantics will make sure the results reflect what they want through what ever means necessary.
Plus when something is clearly wrong, its the govt job to step in and rectify it even if it has popular following. Just because the people want it, doesnt make it right. I mean, what if every Pakistani wanted the Minorities either deported or sent to concentration camps... should the govt do just that?
[/QUOTE]

I seriously don't think the Pakistanis would choose to have it if the debate was simply on the basis of merit, i.e. discrimination from other countries.

[Edited]

20

Pakistanis would probably vote to have the religion section added if for nothing else then to make sure that an Ahmedi could never be allowed to live in Pakistan without being identified as one. That was the basic reason behind it, only to opress people.
Pakistanis who dont vote or choose to vote against the section on the pasport would have no choice then to change their minds and vote for the section upon threats from religous fanatics, so a referandum is not practicle.