How does closing a bank account of an education center help secure US?
Hardships have begun my friends…get ready.
http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=19376
John Byrne, director of the American Bankers Association’s Center for Regulatory Compliance, said that’s due in part to confusing regulations that were put into place with the Patriot Act.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Say Hello to Patriot Act version 2.0: Anti-Muslim Edition.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Kaleem, post the entire article man. I dont feel like registering there to read this article.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Bush is your man Kaleem, he wants the Patriot act to stand as is, even add to it. John Kerry and many Democrates would like to see the Patriot Act reformed so that it pinpoints targets more precisely rather than the sweeping generlizations it currently targets. You voted for this Kaleem, you have only yourself to thank for these hardships.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
I was reading that Speedy Gonzalez is pushing ahead for more federal powers in the patriot act and get it extended by the congress.
Kaleem, UTD is right, when you voted for Bush, you voted for all these people as well as the principles and policies they held so dearly.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress - 1st Session
as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
Vote Result:
Bill Passed
Measure Number:
H.R. 3162 (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001 )
Measure Title:
A bill to deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes.
**Vote Counts:
YEAs
98
NAYs
1
Not Voting
1**
I guess if you voted for just about anybody (98 of 100 anyway), you voted for the Patriot Act.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Storch shortly after 9/11 just about anything would have passed.
Since then many Democrats (and some republicans) have come out calling for its reform as it targets are to general and erode civil rights. Bush wants it kept as is, but changes are coming.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Right, but they’re still responsible for voting for it in its current form and how it is applied. So, they were just rubes? Didn’t read the fine print as they came under the spell of the Administration? B.S.
Much hand-wringing has occurred. And the Patriot Act has become emblematic of the Bush Admins’. Master Plan. Way overblown. It passed then, and it will be renewed in some revised form and will still overwhelmingy pass (most Dems will vote for it) because its necessary.
And you think the complaining about it will stop then?
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Everything eventually balances out to a new norm. Any overreaction in the patriot act will be fixed.
In the meantime it gives lefties the excuse to pull out some tired nazi comparison.
Tell you what, go to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, and protest Islamic based laws. Watch the Islamo-Facists and compare it to the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act is childs play compared to real repression.
But it gives the Western lefties something to do in the mean time.
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storch is right.. your congressman/woman sold you out cuz they were afraid of how they'd look opposing a bill called "Patriot" act.. don't blame anyone else now cuz the Democrats are having second thoughts.. well some of them are..
If they really want to be someone or be a party with any identity, they have no other choice but to fully embrace the libertarian stance. You can't be for "National Security" and "increased powers for law enforcement" and then cry foul when liberties are eroded.
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OG, why are you comparing the U.S.. with Pakistan or Saudi Arabia? What’s your point, The U.S. has much more freedom that Pakistan and S.A. so “lefties” should just shut the hell up about laws that take away civil liberties here in the U.S.?? Sorry I don’t play that game, we need to wait until we reach the level of repression seen in those countries before we do something about it? That’s backwards thinking.
And storch god willing there will always be a voice of opposition when questionable acts erode civil liberties, Muslims or anyone else’s.
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UTD is right. Those speaking of for civil liberties deserve more respect than being labled lefty loonies. And comparing the rights in America to those in Pakistan or SA is not a measurement I am comfortable with.
Everyone falling in line with something as sweeping and potentially oppressive as the Patriot act is not in the best interests of America. If this bill were more appropriately named like "The Limitation of Rights Bill", Democrats might not feel so inclined to fall in line. Thank God for dissenters and complainers.
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The point is many countries have domestic security measures and this one has been a political football.
When 98 Senators said “yea”, they were affirming it for the same reasons Bush and Ashcroft did.
Then the lawyers and political groups start picking it apart and looking long and hard for the “unfair” applications of the Act.
The “bad” parts now become the administration’s
portion of the act, the “eroding our civil liberties” part many caterwaul about. Dems? have nothing to do with the “bad” parts now. OG’s point is that the “bad” parts likely aren’t so bad-Britain has had a similar anti-terrorism act since shortly after 9-11,
but somehow that one hasn’t been characterized as the “erosion of civil liberties agenda”
Dems gotta stand up and take responsibility for a necessary piece of legislation that may need a tweak, but rather they wipe their hands of it and bitch and moan for political purposes-not the improvement of national security which is what the damn thing is primarily about.
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(Am traveling with a frickin' 1992 dial up connection.)
Sombody find me a point by point discussion of the Patriot Act. Most provisions are no worse than what Interpol has had for 20 years. Many of them are based on European examples that allow investigations of terrorists, or are already allowed in the US for organized crime investigations.
The myth and fiction surrounding the legislation is appalling, and Senators do not vote for bills because of thier snappy names, no matter what people think.
Every sweeping change in the law is fine tuned and modified as time goes on. Any imbalance in the law should be discussed and fixed.
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The following is from the American Civil Liberties Unions website. The link explains what powers the act has. You may not like the ACLU but they are not making anything up. Sadly OG, many in did not have time to read about the act nor was it debated on the floor.
…
What is the USA PATRIOT Act?
Just six weeks after the September 11 attacks, a panicked Congress passed the “USA/Patriot Act,” an overnight revision of the nation’s surveillance laws that vastly expanded the government’s authority to spy on its own citizens, while simultaneously reducing checks and balances on those powers like judicial oversight, public accountability, and the ability to challenge government searches in court.
Why Congress passed the Patriot Act
Most of the changes to surveillance law made by the Patriot Act were part of a longstanding law enforcement wish list that had been previously rejected by Congress, in some cases repeatedly. Congress reversed course because it was bullied into it by the Bush Administration in the frightening weeks after the September 11 attack.
The Senate version of the Patriot Act, which closely resembled the legislation requested by Attorney General John Ashcroft, was sent straight to the floor with no discussion, debate, or hearings. Many Senators complained that they had little chance to read it, much less analyze it, before having to vote. In the House, hearings were held, and a carefully constructed compromise bill emerged from the Judiciary Committee. But then, with no debate or consultation with rank-and-file members, the House leadership threw out the compromise bill and replaced it with legislation that mirrored the Senate version. Neither discussion nor amendments were permitted, and once again members barely had time to read the thick bill before they were forced to cast an up-or-down vote on it. The Bush Administration implied that members who voted against it would be blamed for any further attacks - a powerful threat at a time when the nation was expecting a second attack to come any moment and when reports of new anthrax letters were appearing daily.
Congress and the Administration acted without any careful or systematic effort to determine whether weaknesses in our surveillance laws had contributed to the attacks, or whether the changes they were making would help prevent further attacks. Indeed, many of the act’s provisions have nothing at all to do with terrorism.
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206
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Having worked there, not having the time to read it is a crappy excuse. The sunset provisions were the compromise that allowed time to review and a date for further discussion. I am glad that provisions will sunset, and to have them reinacted will require additional bills to be passed. What is your problem with that?
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OG, his problem is that Bush came up with it. I have read a bit more about the Patriot act, and yes there will be reforms...there are already senators from both side of the isle talking about amendments to the act. I do hope that some of the "confusion" (John Byrne) will be taken care of in these amendments.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
Storch forwarded to me a Slate analysis of the bill. Just quickly looking at it, 6 of the 8 most controversial provisions sunset in 2005. That means that they will have to be reintroduced and voted for again. This gives plenty of time for discussion.
Don't forget, for a long time the Republicans were the ones who wanted to keep government out of your lives. Don't think that there are a number of libertarian minded Republicans who will sit quietly if there are problems. Because so many provisions sunset, the bill was always intended to be a crisis stop-gap measure. We will see how well it worked, and reassess. Of course the scare mongering Hollywood types who love to throw the "Patriot Act" out with no detail don't mention that the original bill was intended to last 4 years, and that most major provisions would need an entirely new vote to continue in force. This sort of shores up my belief that the Patriot Act is frequently used for propaganda value, not real discussion.
Re: Patriot Act strikes again.
OG, Bush has threaten to “veto any effort by Congress to rein in counterterrorism powers.” he is refering to the sunset provisions. The scare tactics that the Bush squad employs are up running. Take a look at some of his quotes just 3 weeks ago.
…
WASHINGTON, Feb. 14, 2005 - President Bush on Monday urged the nation to stay the course in its “urgent mission” to fight terrorism, and he called on Congress to move quickly to extend sweeping law enforcement powers under the USA Patriot Act.
“We must not allow the passage of time or the illusion of safety to weaken our resolve in this new war,” Mr. Bush said in a speech at the Justice Department. “To protect the American people, Congress must promptly renew all provisions of the Patriot Act this year.”
Mr. Bush’s renewed call for an extension met with skepticism from the American Civil Liberties Union, which called on “cooler heads” in Congress to scrutinize and fine-tune the law to meet civil liberties concerns.
“The president and the attorney general must realize that security and liberty are not - and cannot be - mutually exclusive,” the group said in a statement.
The White House, however, has signaled that it will veto any effort by Congress to rein in counterterrorism powers.
Mr. Bush, speaking at the Justice Department’s Great Hall before an audience of visiting officials and Justice Department employees, said that Mr. Gonzales was joining them in “an urgent mission - to protect the United States from another terrorist attack.”
Mr. Gonzales echoed that theme, pledging that department employees would “work together tirelessly to address terrorism and other threats to our nation, and to confront injustice with integrity and devotion to our highest ideals.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/15/politics/15gonzales.html?ex=1109912400&en=d80a9a9db5350e78&ei=5070