Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

Please do not say that Mustafa Kamal generalised Pakhtuns ... because he did not.

What Mustafa Kamal did was pointed out a group of people, be they Pakhtuns or Muhajir, Punjabi, Sindhi or Baloch ... who are religious fundamentalist and threat to Karachi (as well as Pakistan). Throughout what he said, he pointed out to them and it is obvious if one see what he said. He used the word Pakhtun with certain meaning that is well understood in west.

For instance, if one says that Indians worship idols than here we are not talking about Indians as people but a group who worship idols (as many Indians do not worship idols).

Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

so you feel "These Pashtuns, they are all the same" was directed towards any group of people... be they Muhajir, Punjabi, Sindhi or Baloch?

Well, if we read Kamal words in that interview, than that is what it means ... that he was not referring to Pakhtuns as ethnic group ... but Pakhtun as part of group who are fundamentalists and in them (religious fundamentalists) we have people of every ethnicity.

Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

i guess he thinks we are all pashtuns at some level. Kamal is such a pashtun nationalist.

Well, if you want to, let cut out what is his real words and it would be clear.

.

So if I say people living in big cities , just because they get more opportunities , are more educated as compare to ones living in country side area .... is it racist ?

I don’t think so ... same way MK was trying to say that there is a segment among karachiites pashtuns , who are more exposed to the dirty politics of their leaders, who misuse them in the name of ethnicity and religion , and yes they could be a threat for the peace of our beloved Karachi city ....

How is that racist ?

If ya say so ... but mark it down some where ..... he is going to be the president of Pakistan at some stage in near future .....

Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

**Sa1eem: **yes frustration has been the explanation for many things in the past that appear to be racist on first glance. hitler for example is believed to merely have been annoyed at his tailor.

seriously yar, i didnt read his comments, i listened to them. it is VERY clear what he means, and regardless of what you try to tell me about his internal psychology and what he really might have meant, I dont believe you to tell me more about what he said than what I heard directly from him.

People in the country side arent a race, so no. However if you looked at a random country side person and started saying you country side people.. you're all the same, causing problems everywhere... that would definitely be pretty bigoted.

Furthermore if you met a country-side person, lets say for the purpose of argument that all country side people were from a particular race, and assumed that hes not educated because of his origin, you're being racist.

Obviously there are caveats where it is reasonable to make the assumption about education, for example if we are talking about native tribes from the amazon, and you airlifted a random person from there and then assumed that hes not educated, I wouldnt bash you about it.

[quote]

I don’t think so ... same way MK was trying to say that there is a segment among karachiites pashtuns , who are more exposed to the dirty politics of their leaders, who misuse them in the name of ethnicity and religion , and yes they could be a threat for the peace of our beloved Karachi city ....

How is that racist ?
[/QUOTE]

He NEVER said a segment amongst karachiite pashtuns. He explicitly said that there is no difference in them.

Now, you are twisting things. So, please do not twist things. If you give example of tailor than you should also link tailor with racist act of Hitler.

Here, continious immigration is happening in Karachi without Karachi getting extra fund for these new immigrants and these new immigrants are continiously building illegal settlements that causes not only hinderance to the development of city but it is expected that city provides them with amenities and facilities too.

As for Kamal statement, here it is the cutting from the article with Kamal statement in blue:

[quote]
Karachi’s mayor, Syed Mustafa Kamal, considers these ethnic Pashtuns a threat. In his eyes, they are plotting to take over the city.

“These Pashtuns means like fundamentalist — religiously fundamentalist, religiously extremist,” Kamal says. “They are coming in. When it comes to ethnicity, when it comes to Islam they all are ... the same.”

The mayor gives a tour of the area, driving past squatter neighborhoods and Islamic schools. He passes the area where the journalist Daniel Pearl was found slain. And he points out the window at a bearded man.

“The man who’s coming in front of you ... look at him, look at his face,” Kamal says.
[/quote]

All above statement shows sign of frustration. But ... below statement of writer shows that writer himself is trying to twist things (as they are not Kamal words ... but his words are mentioned later on in blue)

[quote[The mayor says he is convinced that Pashtuns are planning the locations of the illegal housing settlements. He says they are choosing strategic spots that block his own plans for the city.

“It’s a very strategic location, you see?” Kamal asks. “The superhighway is there. They can control the whole highway. ... They had a master plan before me. And they definitely have a master plan.”[/quote]

Above statement along with previous two statements made it clear to me that it is not word of frustration but mixture of frustration and indication by Mayor of threat from Islamic fundamentalist to the city.

Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

what do you think Kamal could say about Pashtuns, that you wouldnt say is frustration.

Say he says "these pashtuns... they are coming in. they are all murderous childabusers who spend their lives having intimate relations with birds..when it comes to birds.. they are all the same", would you say that is racist, or merely an expression of frustration at not having enough resources to provide amenities for the new migrants?

Just want to know where you draw the line

If you read carefully what he said, it is obvious that he is not talking about Pakhtuns are all same ... as than his statement would become incoherent and illogical, because throughout he was linking his statement with Islam, religious fundamentalism and fundamentalist and fact is that most Pakhtuns in Karachi are not religious fundamentalist.

Even madrasa is there, beard is there, pearl murder case is there ... word 'meant religious fundamentalist' is there ... when he pointed out towards the guy with beard and mentioning Pakhtun.

This is the sentence only where he mentioned Pashtuns ... that is it and you can see what he is linking that word to.


“These Pashtuns means like fundamentalist — religiously fundamentalist, religiously extremist,”

Well, first of all you have to determine that when he said that ... they are coming in ... than whom he is referring to.

Obviously, Pakhtuns are not coming in but they are already in Karachi ... so when he says that they are coming in ... it is about future ... so tell me who he is referring to?

To me, from all statements taken together, I understand he is referring to Fundamentalists in power ... or Talibanisation of Pakistan ... a threat for future is what he is referring to.

Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

^Brother plz remmeber that you are an immigrant also and you did not bring Karachi in a suitcase with you.

This line of attack is contingent on the belief that MK sahab can never be incoherent and illogical. Much as I am a devoted fan of Mr MK I dont accept that fully.

[quote]

Even madrasa is there, beard is there, pearl murder case is there ... word 'meant religious fundamentalist' is there ... when he pointed out towards the guy with beard and mentioning Pakhtun.

This is the sentence only where he mentioned Pashtuns ... that is it and you can see what he is linking that word to.


“These Pashtuns means like fundamentalist — religiously fundamentalist, religiously extremist,”
[/QUOTE]

Once again, I listened to the clip. So I know what the bearded person is in context of, he was pointing him out as an example of pashtuns being all the same. He says:

“They are coming in. When it comes to ethnicity, when it comes to Islam they all are ... the same.”

If he only meant "religious fundamentalists" dont you think saying that when it comes to Islam they are the same is redundant and incoherent? Also, what do you think he means by when it comes to ethnicity they are all the same, surely he doesnt mean to insinuate that religious fundamentialist is a new ethnicity?

[quote]

Well, first of all you have to determine that when he said that ... they are coming in ... than whom he is referring to.

Obviously, Pakhtuns are not coming in but they are already in Karachi ... so when he says that they are coming in ... it is about future ... so tell me who he is referring to?

[/quote]

he is referring to Pakhtun migrants who are coming into the city. It is present tense, not future (he didnt say they will come in)

So, as the statement says: “These Pashtuns means like fundamentalist — religiously fundamentalist, religiously extremist,”

You mean to say that Kamal thinks that all Pakhtuns are fundamentalist ... religious fundamentalist, religious extremist?

When he says that .. “They are coming in. When it comes to ethnicity, when it comes to Islam they all are ... the same.”

'They are coming in' ... you mean to say that Kamal is pointing to a person who Kamal believes is 'coming in' ... they have same ethnicity ... Islam ... and all are same (as if only Pakhtun represent Islam) ... further, Kamal thinks that Pakhtuns are not in Karachi and they are coming in ... who are pakhtuns (well ... Islam too) and would be like the person in window (bearded) as Pakhtuns are always bearded?

When Kamal points to a bearded person ... as the article says: And he points out the window at a bearded man].

And then uttered this word: “The man who’s coming in front of you ... look at him, look at his face,” Kamal says.

Do you believe that Kamal is pointing that all Pakhtuns are bearded?

What do you want to say? ... please specify.

Yes. Especially migrants to Karachi, and people living in squatter communities around the super highway (this is where recent migrants are coming in), he is suggesting that they are all religiously fundamentalist and extremists.

[quote]

'They are coming' ... you mean to say that Kamal is pointing to a person who Kamal believes is 'coming in' ... and thinks that Pakhtuns are not in Karachi and they are coming in ... who are pakhtuns and would be like the person in window (bearded) as Pakhtuns are always bearded?

[/quote]

Im not sure what gave you the idea that he was pointing to a person at the time. He is referring to the pashtun immigrants who are coming into the city. One doesnt preclude another, there CAN be Pashtuns already in the city, and there CAN be more pashtuns coming in.

[quote]

When Kamal points to a bearded person ... as the article says: And he points out the window at a bearded man].

And then uttered this word: “The man who’s coming in front of you ... look at him, look at his face,” Kamal says.

Do you believe that Kamal is pointing that all Pakhtuns are bearded?

[/quote]

He cited the bearded fellow as an example of Pashtuns being religious fundamentalists. If you bother to listen to the clip, these are two seperate conversations. First, presumably in his office, or somewhere stationary, where he says the stuff about Pashtuns being the same etc.. then he takes them to super highway and that area, where they see the bearded fellow and says look look at them as an example of the extremism.

But that is not true, is it? So how can you assume that he is suggesting that when it is not true neither from his statement in the article it shows that he is suggesting that? ... Rather, if one look at the article, it is obvious that he is talking about religious extremists.

Throughout he is taking about religious extremists and on tour he pointed to a person with beard ... (we do not know that he is pashtun or not) ... and he said that
“They are coming in. When it comes to ethnicity, when it comes to Islam they all are ... the same.”

Can you please tell me that, did anyone went to that person and ask him if he is pashtun, Punjbai, Muhajir, Sindhi, Baloch, Saraki, Hindko or whatever? I do not think that even writer of the magazine knows who that person could have been. It is an assumption that he was pashtun. But then even if that person was Pashtun or not is irrelevant, as from interview, Mustafa Kamal is actually trying to show a religious fundamentalist, that is all.

Plus Mustafa Kamal is warning that they are coming ... coming? Yea, they are coming because they are not there at present but coming and they are religious fundamentalist. Here meaning of coming is obvious that they are trying to take over ... get into power... who? Well, they are obviously not Pakhtuns but religious fundamentalist (obvious from that interview).

Note: If Kamal wanted to point to a pakhtun than he do not have to point on tour at special person in window with beard but he could have pointed to anyone around him ... even thelay wala, bus driver, Taxi driver, people around anywhere in Karachi, even near his office ... well, many Pakhtuns on road of Karachi who are not bearded as most Pakhtuns in Karachi are not bearded.

Mustafa Kamal could have even pointed to many MQM workers and office bearers who are Pakhtun ... why have to point to a beardo at remote place as if he is a special person about whom no one can say with certainty that he was Pakhtun or not?

The most absurd assumption is that, Mustafa Kamal pointed at bearded person and said: “The man who’s coming in front of you ... look at him, look at his face,” Kamal says.

Now how one could even assume that the person he pointed to was pakhtun, when no one can tell from just look that the person is Pakhtun or what. Not even Mustafa Kamal could tell with certainty that someone in front of him is Pakhtun or what. He could be Muhajir, Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, Saraki, Hindko, Pakhtun, Afghan, Tajik, Uzbek, Hazaran, Iranian, Arab ... or whatever.

Well, forget that anyone could expect a foreigner knowing about ethnicity of a Pakistani by look alone as it is almost impossible even for Pakistanis to do that with certainty. So, when Mustafa was pointing at beardo, the look he wanted to show is obvious and that is of Islamic fundamentalist and not Pakhtun.

Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

dude, you have to listen to the clips. I am not making any assumptions about what he says and when. please listen, and update your post. thanks.

My information is from published material and in published material his remarks are not racist remarks. Now you want me to listen to the clips of the interview. So let see what is there different in the clips and what is published. Pass me web site where video of his interview can be seen.