Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

thats bull.

federations (US is a good example, EU is another, India is another) dont constrain the movement of citizens across provinces.

migrants dont just use the infrastructure (what infrastructure!).. they are usually people who find some sort of work and are therefore good for the economy. Its not as if the state is providing these people with 2 bedroom apartments that you talk about one province recieving compensation from another.

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Brother, try to find how provinces in Pakistan get their funds. I personally do not believe on Pakistan being a confederation as I would like to see Pakistan 'one country' without any provincial boundaries or ethnic barriers.

But as the system is at present: If one is from Sindh they cannot even study in another province (except if other province have few seats quota for Sindh). Each province gets money in proportion to population, regardless of who contributed to exchequer what or who is in what need. Schooling, water supply, roads, healthcare and many other infrastructure and amenities are responsibility of provinces.

If a million people are counted as resident of Punjab but moves to Sindh, Punjab would get money related to them but Sindh would have to provide infrastructure and amenities for them

Nevertheless, my point is that, it is sad that people do have to move from one place to another for job. All Pakistanis are equal and every Pakistani should have full freedom to move from one place to another and if they can do good than they should do good for Pakistan, regardless of what part of Pakistan they come from.

Nevertheless, I also believe that there should be opportunities for all in place they live and no one has to move from one place to another for sake of job.

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Lets see I normally stopped reading your posts or taking them seriously after the 175 seat prediction and the fact that they are zillions of paras long, but that isnt true. I know of Govt institutions, including top ones like GIKi , NUST, UET, all Govt run and there was no restriction on anyone from Sindh to apply. I know many people from Karachi who got into these two institutions not on quotas because they aced the selection tests like any other qualifying applicant.

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^ Spock neither GIKI nor NUST are govt run. They're private institutes. Karachi folks cant apply at UET (aside from UET karachi ofcourse) as far as I know. NUST i guess is semi-govt with the EME collaboration, but Army doesnt really count as a federal govt school. People from Karachi can for example apply to AMC but not RMC.

I personally believe the federation is a good thing. We need stronger provincial govts not weaker.

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But as the system is at present: If one is from Sindh they cannot even study in another province (except if other province have few seats quota for Sindh). Each province gets money in proportion to population, regardless of who contributed to exchequer what or who is in what need. Schooling, water supply, roads, healthcare and many other infrastructure and amenities are responsibility of provinces.

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This is partially a failure of the federal system. In federal systems the taxation is primarily by the provinces, and the federal govt is relatively small. We have the converse.

However that said, in ANY federation, the situation you describe is more or less true (aside from states recieving federal money which doesnt need to happen, states have their own taxes).

No modern (or even non modern that I know of) has limits on what citizens of the country can do. Even very loose federations like EU have freedom of movement for EU citizens across countries.

Obviously more people from New Mexico will move to California than vice versa.

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If a million people are counted as resident of Punjab but moves to Sindh, Punjab would get money related to them but Sindh would have to provide infrastructure and amenities for them

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In an ideal case the city should generate its own revenue and the state should manage its taxes better. It is a failure of the states to get more rights from the federation, but that is a different topic.

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Nevertheless, my point is that, it is sad that people do have to move from one place to another for job.

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Not really. Its great that people move around from one place to another, gives them a chance to get out of their derh eent ki masjids.

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All Pakistanis are equal and every Pakistani should have full freedom to move from one place to another and if they can do good than they should do good for Pakistan, regardless of what part of Pakistan they come from. Nevertheless, I also believe that there should be opportunities for all in place they live and no one has to move from one place to another for sake of job.
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You cant engineer jobs. Jobs are where they are for the reasons that they are. Karachi wasnt created by the Government to the level it is today, it flourished because it became the focalpoint of industry and ports.

Development should ofcourse be diversified, but jobs will be created wherever there is potential, and people will compete for those jobs, often by migrating. Thats completely fair.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

Ravage, NUST is a public university… I am not 100% sure about GIKi though. As for the army is concerned, they only administer and run the constituent colleges, but NUST as far as admissions are concerned, it has nothing to do with the army.

http://nust.edu.pk/usr/showContents.aspx?mdl=896

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

I see. GIKI definitely is 100% private.

As far as I understood it the Army also had to do with the funding of the Uni, but I might be wrong about it. However, NUST isnt your typical govt engineering school, the type of schools Sa1eem is talking about are along the lines of the UET which are not in the same fees or quality category as NUST.

A clearer example is that of govt medical schools where what Sa1eem says does apply.

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In Pakistan there are privately owned educational institutions, federal owned educational institutions and government owned educational institutions (most are government owned ... here it is not federal government but provincial government). All government held institutions are for people of same province with quota for students from other provinces. Federal institutions are also for people of federal domicile but there are generous quotas for people of other provinces. Same is true with most government jobs, even federal government jobs.

Federation of administrative units, fine. Federation of Nations ... Simply No. Federation may be strong if things are going good but is recipe of disintegration once things start going bad. It happened in USSR, it happened in Yugoslavia. It also happened with Pakistan (when BD separated from rest of Pakistan).

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This is partially a failure of the federal system. In federal systems the taxation is primarily by the provinces, and the federal govt is relatively small. We have the converse.
[/quote]

You are right that Pakistan federal system is very unfair. We need strong local administrative units collecting taxes independent of federation and benefitting from whoever comes to work there.

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However that said, in ANY federation, the situation you describe is more or less true (aside from states recieving federal money which doesnt need to happen, states have their own taxes).
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Well, I agree that we should have system where federating units collect all taxes and federation gets money from federating units (provinces ... administrative units) or receive certain taxes for their expenses. Unfortunately, in Pakistan it is federal government that collect taxes and distribute them to provinces.

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No modern (or even non modern that I know of) has limits on what citizens of the country can do. Even very loose federations like EU have freedom of movement for EU citizens across countries.

Obviously more people from New Mexico will move to California than vice versa.
[/quote]

No doubt that movement of people should be allowed, but I believe that this should not be forced because of lack of opportunities.

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In an ideal case the city should generate its own revenue and the state should manage its taxes better. It is a failure of the states to get more rights from the federation, but that is a different topic.
[/quote]

Well, when most of tax revenue gets collected from one minor province (Sindh) then this is bound to happen as in such situation, other provinces start seeing red when federal government hold on finances become weak.

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Not really. Its great that people move around from one place to another, gives them a chance to get out of their derh eent ki masjids.
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Well, it is great when people move around not because of need but because of change. If a graduate from Lahore want to teach outside Lahore, maybe in Karachi than it is fine as long as there are shortage of graduates in Karachi, but it would be unfair on graduate from Lahore if Lahore cannot provide him desired job and it is unfair on graduate of Karachi when someone from Karachi could not get job so that graduate from Lahore gets that job.

Further, it is unfortunate in Pakistan that most who leave their province to move to Sindh do not do that for change but because they had no opportunity at the place they were living. That is bad. A manual labourer should never get forced to move because he could not get job as job should be enough for that person at place of his living.

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You cant engineer jobs. Jobs are where they are for the reasons that they are. Karachi wasnt created by the Government to the level it is today, it flourished because it became the focalpoint of industry and ports.

Development should ofcourse be diversified, but jobs will be created wherever there is potential, and people will compete for those jobs, often by migrating. Thats completely fair.
[/quote]

You are right that certain type of jobs do come with environment. A mining job would come where there are mines and shipping jobs would come where there is port. But nevertheless, vast majority of jobs are created by people of the area and they are not area specific but people specific.

For instance there are huge banking jobs in Karachi ... why? Because there are many businesses and account holders in Karachi ... why? Because people of Karachi are into businesses, are enterprising, are educated, and need banks. Thus in result produced bankers from people of Karachi who started their own banks, further creating 1000s of banking jobs.

So, you can say that if there are people in community who are enterprising, educated and professionals ... they create opportunities where many get jobs and because of them many more jobs are created. If government is conducive then it helps more. Result is that diverse businesses start up driving strength from already running businesses and their employees. More opportunities create further opportunities and thus job creations keep going on and on.

I believe that Sarhad has huge potential in tourism, power generation, mining, travel (as many are working outside the area), hotels, banking, education, construction, orchard farming, etc, etc, etc. But things are bad because there are few enterprising and business minded people, resulting in the area being under developed and people going to other places for jobs. Sarhad needs good government, good management plus invitation to people who are enterprising, so that economy can get kick start.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

One needs to realize that people of Karachi are far more tolerant and freindly for Pushtoons despite presence of MQM goons and history of violence here. Pushtoons are doing jobs and business in this city with greater comfort than anyother place in Pakistan.

80% of Karachi's tranport is controlled by them (You can not think of it in other major cities of the country like Lahore and Islamabad). Fruits and vegetables whole sale market is fully controlled by them. At least 30-40% of the resturants are owned by them. Most tandoor and tea stalls are owned by them.

You wont find a non-pushtoon shop in Karachi's areas like Frontier Colony, Bacha Khan Chowk, Patel Para, Dawood Chowrangi, etc. But you can find pushtoons doing all sorts of jobs in other parts of the city - even in the stronghold of MQM - Azizabad - here you can see tandoor, tea stall and fruit sellers etc beside pushtoon rickshaw drivers.

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The comparisons arent true, its not like Pashtuns need some sort of licenses from the people of Karachi to run their business. And also, you are contradicting yourself when you say they are doing business with greater comfort than any other city when you mention the racist MQM govt targeting them, and the history of violence. No other city govt treats them like that, infact whatever you said, i.e. them owning all the khokhaz, buses etc, holds true for Islamabad for instance, except that they dont get targeted nor does the mayor of Islamabad call them terrorists or generalize them or tell foreign journalists 'look at their faces they are all islamic extremists'.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

Number of pushtoons (or their ratio to other poeple) in Islamabad are in no comparsion with Karachi! It is even said that there are more pushtoons in Karachi than they are in Peshawar.

Even Quetta had witnessed worst rivalary between pushtoons and balouch back in the 90s'. There was almost a war like situation over there some time in the 90s with lots of casualties and army had to intervene and impose curfew over there.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

I would agree with the number, but not the ratio. Keep in mind, the population of Islamabad is peanuts compared to Karachi. Rawalpindi is a better example, everything you mentioned is again owned and run by Pashtuns over there without any discrimination or violence ever experienced, though it would be a little unfair in comparison because the people of Rawalpindi enjoy close proximity and better relationship with thepeople of NWFP.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

You should not forget Islamabad is the capital city. What about other towns? Why there not many pushtoons over there as compared to Karachi?

Despite leaders hatred based politics and violence, majority people of Karachi (from all ethnicities) are tolerent and want to live in peace.

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I just gave you another example, Rawalpindi. You will find all that, that you mentioned. And yes, Islamabad isnt exactly a cheap place to live in, especially if you are in the khokha, tanooor business.

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Despite leaders hatred based politics and violence, majority people of Karachi (from all ethnicities) are tolerent and want to live in peace.
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As are other people from other cities, except that in these cities the local govt doesnt term them racists or extremists.

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Rawalpindi may wo baat nahee jo Karachi may hia! Karachi is far more multi ethnic and multi linguistic - at 15 languages are spoken here!

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

Yeah, the Pashtuns in Pindi speak Spanish I guess. Also, as resident of KArachi, how come you spent all the time here trying to justify the nazims statement and add some positive parity to it, and not call his interview racist?

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

There are entire colonies/places in Karachi which are 100% pushtoon. Can anyone tell me a single one from Rawalpindi?

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

Mostar, Pashtuns in Rawalpindi and other such cities dont live in colonies or in groups, they dont need to as there is no insecurity. They wont be hunt down or labelled extremists. Yet they still own all those businesses you mentioned. Infact, they do better, the entire Baara electronics market is run by them, and its very profitable. At one point, Baara was the only source of consumer electronics in the entire country.

Again, my point is not to tell you who has more 'colonies', its just about your notion as to how the people of Karachi standing out when it comes to greeting them with wreaths and flowers, and everyone else is not welcoming them with open arms. The people aren the problem, they learn to live with harmony wherever they are, its the city govt. Its also about time, as resident of the city of Karachi you condemn the mayors statement against your fellow people in the city.

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yaar, whom you are trying to tell have pre-set mind and have no ability to think. They are famous group of people living in mental syndrome of 'may na manoo'. Many of them are racist too, with full of hate as they are aggrieved that they have to leave their province to find work and opportunity in Karachi. Well, some are representing pathetic leaders of Punjab and Sarhad and do not like their incompetency to get blamed for the misery of these migrant workers, so they have to find baseless excuses and escape goats in others.

Very few people may know that Sindh before 1947 was much less developed than Punjab and Sarhad. It is hard work and only hard work of people that made Sindh what it is today. Present Sindh is magnet for most Pakistanis looking for jobs and opportunities. Why?

Fact is that what people of Sarhad need is to ask 'Syed Mustafa Kamal' to become Chief Minister of Sarhad with full power and cooperation from all. If that would happen than Sarhad would experience unprecedented development in all sectors as there is no shortage of anything in Sarhad and Sarhad only needs good hard working intelligent person as manager with vision and desire for progress (like Syed Mustafa Kamal). Consequently, People of Sarhad would get good education and will be well provided with amenities, infrastructure and plenty of job opportunities. In such situation, Sarhad would become magnet for workers from all over Pakistan, including Punjab.

But then corrupt leaders of Sarhad would never like that, as for them, their pathetic leadership could only survive when Sarhad stays deprived of prosperity, progress and development. These pathetic leaders want uneducated and gullible masses of Sarhad to stay misguided, keep believing that these crook leaders are doing everything best for them, and never ask question. These leaders want people of Sarhad to keep becoming non-resident labourers in Karachi and other places far from their home, and keep dying for their thug leaders (be they religious or secular), without a word.

Unfortunately, innocent people of Sarhad could not understand that there is big difference between migration for conscious (religion, political beliefs, principles, etc) and migration for needs (jobs, education, amenities, calamities, etc). Masses of Sarhad (and to extend Punjab) never ask their leaders that why they are in such pathetic disgusting situation that they have to move out of their province to Sindh (Karachi) for lowly jobs, good education, basic amenities and opportunities. Why all these necessity of life are not for them in their province?

Obviously, these pathetic thug leaders of Sarhad keep giving lip service and hoodwinking misguided masses of Sarhad by blaming others for their misery and lack of opportunities, creating friction wherever these innocent people go for work. These pathetic leaders never tell these innocent people that their problems is not due to others but their main problem is they themselves as they chose crook and incompetent leaders, else they could have got their paradise without becoming migrant labourers far aawy from their province.

[Believe me, I really care for hard working Pakthuns and my family helped many Pakhtuns to find accommodation and job in Karachi. My brother opened his first medical clinic in Bararas colony where he was giving free medical service and medicine to poor Pakhtun (and Afghan). At my family house servant quarter our Pakhtun chokidar provided free accommodation to many of his relatives (with permission) before they found their own accommodation. My uncle when retired from service brought with him 2 to 3 families from Punjab to live in his servant quarters and later when their family expanded, one of the guy with his family moved to our house and we not only helped him financially but helped his family in every way, providing free medical care and medicine plus money whenever they needed ... actually, there are many instances that we helped or tried to help others, without even thinking of their ethnicity].

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

^ Heres comes the savior of the Pakhtuns in KArachi, Saleem Bhai! :hehe: So Saleem, you dont think what the nazim said was racist, a yes or no will suffice (no long paras please)

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I do not think that it was racist comment but I believe that it was comment out of frustration. :slight_smile: