Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Pakistan was formed for Muslims as an Islamic state. Those who left everything behind in India to live in a Muslim state did not become Pakistanis after 1947. They were already Pakistani's at heart before 1947, they waited for the boundaries of Pakistan to be formalized so that they can live in Pakistan, as Pakistanis. ANP is furious because the citizenship of Afghan Pathans is questioned, while the citizenships of Muhajirs is not. The difference between the Afghan Pathan's and Muhajirs is that Muhajirs left a comfortable home to live in Pakistan, when Pakistan as a country was forming. Afghan Pathan's on the other hand did not migrate to Pakistan, but instead continued on living in Afghanistan. They only migrated when the Russian army started killing every Afghan in site...that is when they remembered Pakistan, and it was during the mid 70's that 1/5th of the Afghan population migrated into Pakistan. Afghan Pathan's are not citizens of Pakistan, as they migrated into Pakistan as refugees during the 70's. Muhajirs are citizens of Pakistan, because they pledged their allegiance to a Muslim Pakistan, and responded to the calls of Mohammad Ali Jinnah, who stated that any Muslim from the subcontinent who immigrates to Pakistan will be a Pakistani citizen.

Hence any settlements that Afghan pathans make in Karachi or in any other place of Pakistan, should be classified as an illegal settlements. They could have been Pakistani's if they made sacrifices in 1947, but they chose not to. They came to Pakistan, out of necessity, and not due to their love for Pakistan. Most Afghans, do not even recognize the Durand line. They believe that Quetta and Peshawar is a part of Afghanistan.

Regardless of what maybe, MQM controls Karachi and Hyderabad. ANP is a hopeless lost child in those cities. They have no power to affect any decision in Karachi or in Hyderabad. 99% of them are not terrorists, but 100% Afghan Pathans are illegal settlers in Pakistan. Pakistani pathans are Pakistanis, but not Afghani Pathans.

If the notion of Punjabis, pathans, sindhis, and muhajirs is not elimenated from Pakistani society, then Pakistan will soon degenerate into 4 different countries. Punjab will become Punjabistan, the western border of Pakistan will become Pathanistan, Karachi and Hydrabad will become Muhajiristan, and the rest of Sindh will become Sindhistan...Azad Kashmir will in all liklihood become part of India then.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

^ Good, but maybe you should write a letter to the MQM leadership and their spokesman who is terming them as terrorists/fundamentalists.

Jinnah never made any public calls for all the Muslims in the sub-continent to migrate to what is now Pakistan.

Can someone BRIEFLY explain the importance of "Memogate" to me?
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do you feel that those people should not have migrated, in that case?

also do you wish he made his real feelings about the matter more clear, so that those emigrating did not get the wrong idea?

Time pass
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Its not a matter of what I wished or not, just pointing out that 'Jinnah never made a public call for anyone outside of Pakistan to migrate'. What happened was not his fault, nor the refugees, as many of them were forced to migrate because of communal violence.

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Learn your history Spock. Pakistan was created for Muslims who would rather live in a Muslim dominated country rather than a Hindu dominated India. Pakistan and Israel are the only two countries in the world, who were created due to relegious reasons. Israel was created for all the jews in the world, and Pakistan was created for all the muslims in the subcontinent. Hence, any Muslim living in the subcontinent had a choice to make, become Indian citizens, or become Pakistani citizens. Millions poured out of Pakistan to become Indians, and millions poured into Pakistan, to become Pakistanis.

Jinnah most certainly made public calls for all the muslims in the sub-continent to migrate to what is now Pakistan. The cross border mouvement of the masses was encouraged by both the leadership of Pakistan and India.

Perhaps some people wish that this was not the case but facts are facts. Muhajirs are first class citizens of Pakistan. They left their homes, and pledged allegiance to a Muslim Pakistan. Muhajirs have always defended Pakistan, and will inshallah continue to do so. Muhajirs have proved their loyalty towards Pakistan on numerous occassions after 1947, most notably in 1971, when East Pakistan ceeded. Muhajirs respect and follow the laws of Pakistan. They do not have their own militia's like the BLA, or armed tribes like there are in the north. Instead of questioning the loyalty of muhajirs, one should question the loyalty of balochis who regularly destroy Pakistani made pipelines, the tribes in the northern areas who don't follow or respect Pakistani laws, the same tribes opeanly behead Pakistani soldiers, and opeanly burn the flag of Pakistan. If anyone has any doubts over the loyalty of Muhajirs, then they should walk with a Pakistani flag into Karachi or Hyderabad. They should then also repeat this same expirement, by walking into the northern areas or by walking with a Pakistan flag inside balochistan...if they walk out alive I will be extremly surprised.

Unfortunatly due to propoganda, ignorance and flat out hate, Muhajirs, who perhaps are the most patriotic of Pakistanis are labeled as a Indian agents, or a threat to Pakistan. Time will tell who is loyal and who is not.

It should also be noted, that it is extremly easy for Muhajirs to create their own homeland. The only thing that needs to be done is for Altaf Hussain to hold a press conference where he states that Muhajirs have faced more than enough racism, more than enough doubts about their loyalty, and the time is now for Muhajirs to accept the wishes of a select few to seperate from Pakistan. He then just has to phone an American adminstration official, and leave the rest upto him. There are plenty of countries in the world that would gleefully help tearing Pakistan apart into different countries. Altaf Hussain does not want that, and neither do Muhajirs and that is why this has not been done yet. No one can stop such an outcome, if MQM desires it to be so. MQM is not like various Balochi organizations, and various Pathan organizations that opeanly promote the murder of Pakistani soldiers, and the destruction of Pakistani state property. We do not burn the flags of Pakistan, nor do we have an allegiance to another country like India, Afghanistan, or a greater Pakhtunistan.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

^ I am not interested in that long love letter for Altaf Hussain, but it is absurd to say that Pakistan was meant to hold all the Muslims of the sub-continent. Jinnah never want that, nor did he call for that, like you said.

And coming back to Altaf Hussain and his loyalty to India, I wonder who said this **“The division of the sub-continent is the greater, greatest blunder in the history of the mankind”.

**

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

basically you dont deny that he advocated citizenship for migrants, what then is the point you are trying to make? if you believe that he didnt encourage migrations, you need to get a spine and argue to that effect instead of hedging your answers on non sequiters.

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Ok let me make it clear for you once again, someone said Jinnah called for all the Muslims of the sub-continent to move to Pakistan, I said that is not true. End of Story.

Find A Match! - GS zaroorat-e-rishta!
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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

And ravage, do you have to keep editing your posts after I reply to them?

Since you changed it, let me answer the second part. The reason is simple, people like paki_man try to somehow prove they are first class citizens because they somehow answered this 'non-existent' public call by Jinnah for all the Muslims to move to Pakistan. I have to point out that this is not true, since Jinnah never made such a call. He wanted the Muslims of the states that acceded to Pakistan to stay in Pakistan, and the Hindus here to stay in the states they were in. He didnt want the mass influx of refugees which crippled the nation in infancy with various other problems including the division of assets. I hope this helps quench your thirst for trying to figure out whats going on.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

in which case you do suggest that he didnt want the migrations.

do you have any basis for that? why did he give automatic citizenship to those who came, and arranged for them to have land in return for what they left behind?

you mention first class citizens, do you feel Muhajirs are not first class citizens? what exactly is your definition of class?

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

Ravage, read some books on Jinnah, this is pretty obvious and documented in many books, including that of wolpert.

As for the rest, just because he didnt 'want' that to happen didnt mean he could stop it. He wanted alot of other things which he couldn't get as well.

Now as far as I am concerned (since you wanted to know my wishes in the first place), I don't have an issue with this but when someone comes and says 'oh we are the first class citizens here and deserve the best treatment because we moved here on jinnah's cry', that is something thats just not true, and has to be snubbed.

Also, in the end, Mustafa Kamaal 'subdon' of KArachi is targeting the Pakthuns who are primarily citizens of Pakistan, so this comparison isn't even valid. They have every right to live in Karachi, just like any other citizen of Pakistan.

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None of what I have read about Jinnah suggests that he did not want ideologically motivated Muslims to migrate to Pakistan. Many of his cabinet members and higher ups in the party and government were similar migrants, who did not really migrate because of any threat of bodily harm, but for ideological reasons.

If he was opposed to anything it was the circumstances leading to forced mass migrations.

[quote]

As for the rest, just because he didnt 'want' that to happen didnt mean he could stop it. He wanted alot of other things which he couldn't get as well.

[/quote]

He didnt just not-stop it. There was a barter system set up where if you had property in India you recieved comparable property in Pakistan. There were also transport routes setup to facilitate the movement of people from India to specific places in Pakistan, including in places where there was little communal violence (i.e. people werent fleeing). This is by no means the standard way of dealing with refugees.

[quote]

Now as far as I am concerned (since you wanted to know my wishes in the first place), I don't have an issue with this but when someone comes and says 'oh we are the first class citizens here and deserve the best treatment because we moved here on jinnah's cry', that is something thats just not true, and has to be snubbed.

[/quote]

Again, what do you mean by first-class citizen. Do you mean to say that some people in Pakistan are presently NOT first-class citizens? What privileges would you take away if your system of citizen class was implemented?

[quote]

Also, in the end, Mustafa Kamaal 'subdon' of KArachi is targeting the Pakthuns who are primarily citizens of Pakistan, so this comparison isn't even valid. They have every right to live in Karachi, just like any other citizen of Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]

Sure. What is a primary citizen however, and what additional rights should they have over secondary citizens (people I would assume who are of indian migrant origin)

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Maybe you didnt read enough, I can cite you some passages from some famous books if I have time.

[quote]

If he was opposed to anything it was the circumstances leading to forced mass migrations.

[/quote]

Most of the mass migrations occured because of the communal riots that erupted, and some last minute boundary changes by Cyril Radcliffe.

[quote]

He didnt just not-stop it. There was a barter system set up where if you had property in India you recieved comparable property in Pakistan. This is by no means the standard way of dealing with refugees.

[/quote]

He couldnt stop it, he had nothing to stop it, and he did the best he could to accomodate them since they were coming in large numbers. You must realize you are talking about an infact country with a few type writers, they couldnt have done anything.

[quote]

Again, what do you mean by first-class citizen. Do you mean to say that some people in Pakistan are presently NOT first-class citizens? What privileges would you take away if your system of citizen class was implemented?

[/quote]

Go ask the person who said he was a first class citizen because he migrated on Jinnah's appeal, and was already living a luxiorious life in a united India.

[quote]

Sure. What is a primary citizen however, and what additional rights should they have over secondary citizens (people I would assume who are of indian migrant origin)
[/quote]

There is no secondary or primary citizen, pakthuns have as much right as mohajirs to live in Karachi, simple.

You better be scared- very scared!
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It would make your claims much more credible.

[quote]

Most of the mass migrations occured because of the communal riots that erupted, and some last minute boundary changes by Cyril Radcliffe.

[/quote]

I wouldnt say most. The demographics in Karachi suggest that quite a few mass migrations occurred from places considerably inland. Delhi and Lucknow were never going to be in Pakistan regardless of what Radcliffe did.

[quote]

He couldnt stop it, he had nothing to stop it, and he did the best he could to accomodate them since they were coming in large numbers. You must realize you are talking about an infact country with a few type writers, they couldnt have done anything.

[/quote]

There is a difference between passively reacting to migrants and facilitating the movement of migrants from India to Pakistan.

You have to see that ML was a national party of India, which did particularly well in Muslim dominated places that are now part of India. Jinnah wasnt just a leader for people in present day Pakistan, he represented the Muslims of India.

It is unlikely therefore that he would seek a solution to the problem which catered only for people living in certain areas, and still get major electoral support in the parts left behind in India.

[quote]

Go ask the person who said he was a first class citizen because he migrated on Jinnah's appeal, and was already living a luxiorious life in a united India.

There is no secondary or primary citizen, pakthuns have as much right as mohajirs to live in Karachi, simple.

[/quote]

I dont believe there are any second-class Pakistanies. It isnt clear whether you do, based on your last two posts.

That said it is factual that people who migrated to Pakistan were relatively better off. That is merely factual, only those who were well off could afford to move. Also ideology is an avenue for the well fed, the poor are usually more concerned with day to day affairs.

This is the reason why Muslims in present day India, especially in places like UP, are in such bad straits.

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Was Pakistan Jinnah's personal property that he had the right toallow anyone from anywhere to come and settle here?

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

the people of then Pakistan did support him to an extent that he could make decisions of that magnitude. he was a popular leader to say the least.

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Ravage, I dont believe in 1st of 2nd class citizens either, if you are referring to my quote, please direct your questions to the one who said it:

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He allowed but he never encouraged it nor did he want it. It is a miracle that an infant nation with less than 20 official typewriters survived this refugee calamity.

Good bye T H R E A D
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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

^and he sacked those who were against the mass immigration of Indian Muslims to Sindh, how undemocratic. And he also imposed Urdu although at least half of the population was against his decision.

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Re: Pashtuns are plotting to take over Karachi, Kamal tells NPR

**spock: **may sound academic but I didnt read his statement of muhajirs being first-class citizens with as much concern as I did your rebuttal of it.

saying that someone is a first-class citizen doesnt necessarily indicate the presence of a second-class. i can say we are all first-class citizens for example, and be merely negating the existence of class.

saying that someone isnt a first-class citizen does mean the presence of another class.

**shawaiz_k: **who did he sack?