Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed Imam

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Please let me quote you the following verse of Quran:

O you believe, obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those amongst you who are give supreme authority (by Allah). (4:59)

The Quran verse above asks us to follow, Allah SWT, His Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H and those given the supreme authority. This means besides Allah SWT and Prophet there are some personalities that were given supreme authority

Now please let me quote you another verse of Quran:

Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one [76:23]

The above two verses indicates that Allah SWT wants us to follow the personalities given the supreme authority, furthermore Allah SWT does not want us to obey the sinner or ungrateful one. To me this means one of the qualities of the personality given the supreme authority is they are not sinner or ungrateful one.

If quran asks us not to obey the sinner, does it talk about the any pure personalities… Please read the ayat below where quan talks about the purity of Ahleybait

Now let me quote you another verse of Quran:
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.[33:33]

Similarly, following is another verse of quran:
Quran [42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful

In the above verse Quran asks us to love ahleybait.

Following is another hadith of Holy Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir](http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir)

We shias believe in Hazrat Ali AS as our Imam as appointed by Holy Prophet P.B.U.H, Quran testifies the purity of Ahleybait. However, we do not nazubillah take them as God. Imam Ali AS embraced Shahadat while leading Fajr prayers for Allah SWT. Imam Hussain AS sacrificed his whole family in way of Allah, but no one ever claimed to be nazubillah God. Neither us, the believers of 12 Imams (Fiqah-e-Jafferia) ever claimed Imam as nauzbuillah God.

Let me quote what I had said initially:

I don’t see how your example fits the context of my argument. If someone raises sword against your dad, and you know your dad is righteous and yet you still support the other person, would you claim you are a sincere lover of your dad? .

Let me try to explain it in more simple words. You go to a mosque and you know the person who is the Imam of the mosque is righteous. If a person raises sword against the Imam you love and respect, would you support him and take him as your Imam if you knew he was not right. Similarly would you be a sincere lover of the righteous Imam in doing so… In this case following is an hadith of Prophet P.B.U.H in your books:

Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrisy.

Sahih Tirmidhi, volume 5, page 643
Sunan Ibn Majah, volume 1, page 142
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal volume 1, pages 84,95,128
Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202

Furthermore let me quote you an ayat of Quran, hopefully it will make things simple for you:

Be careful of your duty to Allah and be with the Truthful. (9:119)

Following was your reply:

To the question below:

Brother, you are using a worldy Khilafat as a criteria raise the standards of some people above the standards of personalities who are the Chief of the Youth of Heaven. Talking about Caliphs why won’t you go further and included Mawiya, Yazeed and so on??? I have a simple question for you

**Was Abu Bakr elected Khalifa by Allah/Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H or elected by ****people? Were Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain elected the Chief of the Youth of Paradise by Allah SWT/Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H or People.

**Also if you can, can you please answer the following question also:

**To you what will be a bigger position being a Caliph on earth or being the chief of the youth of Paradise?

**
I have pretty much clarified the second part Imam Ali AS is asking his followers not to divide amongst themselves and be with the majority, not to split up in sects. There is no need to argue the numbers. Please read my following response :

Brother we Firqae Jafferia do have masjids also. Check out the following link for Masjid -e Rasool for example

http://www.1god.org

62

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Salaam brother **Texan_Dude **Thank you for the reply and appreciate your politeness.
The complete verse you quoted is as follows:

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 4:59]

If you read it you will note that we are commanded to obey Allah and His Messenger; this obedience is Absolute /unconditional/total.

Then we are commanded to follow those of you who are in authority (Ulul Amr ). This obedience is NOT Absolute /unconditional/total because there is a possibility of Dispute/Disagreement (and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter) we must refer it to Allah and the messenger.

After passing away of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) we have to refer to the Quran and Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him).

This in no way implies infallible imams by any stretch of imagination!!!

Sunnis follow Allah (swt), the Messenger of Allah (saw), general consensus of the Sahaba (May Allah be pleased with them all) and righteous scholars of the present time.

After Khilafah Rashida May Allah be pleased with them) temporal/political authority was with the Khalifs and the religious authority was with the Righteous Ulema.

*Hudhaifah (raa) has said that the Prophet (saws) said

“The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood,” then he kept silent.* (Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)

Abud-Dardaa (radyAllaahu ‘anhu) reported: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) say: ‘Whoever treads a path due to which he seeks knowledge, Allaah will make him tread one of the paths towards Paradise. And the angels lower their wings out of contentment for the seeker of knowledge. And verily all those in the heavens and in the earth, even the fish in the depths of the sea ask forgiveness for the scholar. And verily, the virtue of the scholar over the worshipper is like the virtue of the moon on the night of Al-Badr over all of the stars. *Indeed, the scholars are the inheritors of the prophets, for the prophets do not leave behind a dinar or a dirham for inheritance, but rather, they leave behind knowledge. So whoever takes hold of it, has acquired a large share (i.e. of inheritance).’”* [Reported by Abu Dawood, At-Tirmidhee and Ibn Hibbaan, and this is the wording found in his collection, in abridged form. Al-Bukhaaree mentioned in his Saheeh Collection in his Book of Knowledge, Chapter: Knowledge precedes Speech and Action, the part from it:]**

After disappearance of 12th Imam whom do 12er Shia turn to for guidance and obedience?

Their selected marjas – No Shia can claim that his marja is infallible – This marja has to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah through the Imams – true?

No Shia has the access to any infallible Imam thus can only refer to marja for Guidance and advice.

So how can you claim that you are following infallible people? You follow marjas and ayatullahs just as much as Sunnis follow Ulemah and Muftis! And they refer to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

You as you are now have no access to any Infallible person - do you agree to that? Only Marjas and Ayatullahs and they fallible humans.

Agree with you whole heartedly; you know that Sunnis love all the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet (saw) – All of them not just select few – And wives of Prophet (saw) are his Ahlul Bayt (May Allah be pleased with them all).

Agree with you whole heartedly you know that Sunnis love all the near relatives of the Prophet (saw) – Be they are his wives, all daughters and sons, all cousins, all son in laws, all father in laws, all the grandchildren. (May Allah be pleased with them all).

63

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Brother **Texan_Dude **the word Mawla doesn’t mean leader by any stretch of imagination.

Literally means ‘Protector’, ‘Master’, ‘Benefactor’, 'Supporter', ‘Helper’, ‘Friend’, ‘Loved one’ Ally, Patron, counsellor .

See the following ayah.

That is because Allah is the Protector (mawala) of those who believe, and because the unbelievers shall have no protector (mawala) for them (47:11)

We can not have Allah (swt) as our leader (amir)! He is beyond this.

I am referring you back to Sermon 91 in Nahjulbalagha – where Hz. Ali (ra) has used the word’ Vizier’ (as counsellor).

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief (Amir). Nahjulbalagha Sermon 91

Please note that at this critical point he never claimed or pushed his right to the Imamate.

If he was really chosen and commissioned for Imamate by Allah (swt) he would have said that in the above sermon. He had no right ‘postpone’ or ‘temporarily wash hands off it’. He was duty bound to remind the people of his divinely ordained Imamate. If he did not then he was not faithful to his mission. He was indeed a true follower of Islam. A great champion and hero of Islam. A great Scholar of Islam. It would be a sin to even think that he would ever let Islam down or not implement any requirement of it.

Refer to Prophet (saw)’s response when under pressure from the Quraishi polytheists Abu Talib asked the Prophet (saw) to soften his criticism of Quraishi gods.

“O my uncle! By Allah, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandoned this course, I would not abandon it until Allah has made it victorious, or I perish therein.

Refer to the following ayahs.

Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger, 69:40]
And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe; 69:41]
Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind. 69:42]
It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. 69:43]
And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, 69:44]
We would certainly have seized him by the right hand, 69:45]
Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta. 69:46]
And not one of you could have withheld Us from him. 69:47]

And note Allah (swt) says that if the Prophet (saw) had ‘fabricated against Us some of the sayings,’ (that means changing Allah’s command) the in response Allah (swt) would have ‘We would certainly have seized him by the right hand, Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta. And not one of you could have withheld Us from him.

If Hz Ali was the Chosen Imam then he would have claimed it for he was fearless extremely brave and very true to Islam and Allah’s and Prophet’s commands.

Do you claim that Sunnis don’t love Ahlul Bayt and near relatives of the Prophet (saw)?

64

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

The following will help you

Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 58

The letter below clearly shows that Imam Ali (ra) deemed selection Hz’ Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all) per approval and pleasure of Allah!

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism. Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 6

Also note that when in his last days when the Prophet (saw) could not lead the prayers he appointed Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) in his place. This is very significant as it clearly implies who the Prophet (saw) want to lead the Ummah after him.

I agree with you but generally it is Imambargahs and not masjids.

65

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. - Nahjul Balagha SERMON 126

1) So where do you put Ahlus Sunnah into this equation?

2) Do you consider Sunnis to be Nasibis thus virtually out of Islam?

3) Do you really consider the 12ers to be that great majority of Muslims?

4) The sermon clearly states: "So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity" So who is this great majority (of Muslims)? Collectively Shias are only 10% of Muslims population and if one were to draw a one thosand mile radius around Iran nearly 90% of World Shia population will be netted in. Extremely localised in one area!!!

5) It seems like you have kept Sunnis out the equation. So making the 12er the majority by purging out the Sunnis !!!!!!

66

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Thanks for correction of correct sermon no. and detials Ibne Sadique , what a precise & eloquent prediction from Janab_e_Amir (ra) ....

67

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Allah has assigned the task of spiritual guidance of mankind to the progeny of Abraham (as). There are people in jews, chiristians, hindus, muslims .. who have this intense divine impulse to do good, purify their own self and call people towards good. I think everyone is supposed to do all of this, but progeny of Abraham "have" to do it, it's their duty.

68

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

WSalaam brother Ibne Sadique, lets look at the quran ayat that you quoted above:

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority*; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.* 4:59]

Please read the text highlighted in red. It clearly states Obey Alalh SWT, his messenger and those who are in authority…it does not say anywhere obey who are in authority conditionally… Furthermore it says, the following:

and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 4:59]

Personally to me, it clearly means if there is a dispute on any matter we need to refer to Allah SWT and Messenger… the person who has given the authority would also implement the teachings of Allah SWT and Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H…

Keeping this ayat in mind, I would suggest you ponder on one of the first disputes that arose after the death of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H who should be leader after the Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H?

Certainly Abu Bakr was elected by a limited Shura.

Well lets go back to Quran and Holy Prophet P.B.U.H… Following are the qualities Quran points about the personality we should obey:

Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one [76:23]

The above ayat clearly indicates the one with the authority is not a sinner… Now does Quran point out who are the pure ones?

And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.[33:33]

Let me quote you another verse of Quran:

[5:55] “Verily, your **Master **is but Allah and His Apostle and those **who believe, who establish prayers, and pay the Zakat while bowed in worship.”

Now lets see if Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. gave us a hadith that points out who our Master should be:

**Following is the hadith of Ghadeer e Khum I have quoted earlier,
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”
http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir](http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir)

Now let quote you what you had to say in regards to the meaning of Mawla in our last Post

**How do you percieve this hadith and ayat below
**[5:55] “Verily, your **Master **is but Allah and His Apostle and those who believe, who establish prayers, and pay the Zakat while bowed in worship.”

Following is another narration in your Sahih books which relates this verse to Imam Ali AS.

Abu Dharr al-Ghifari says that one day he was praying with the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) when a beggar came to the Prophet’s mosque. None responded to his pleas. The beggar raised his hands towards heavens and said, Allah! Be a witness that I came to the Prophet’s Mosque and no one gave me anything. Ali (a.s.) was bowing, in ruku at that time. He pointed his little finger, on which was a ring, towards him who came forward and took away the ring. This incident occurred in the Holy Prophet’s (s.a.w.) presence who raised his face towards heavens and prayed : O Lord! My brother Musa had begged to You to open his chest to make his work easy for him, to loosen the knot of his tongue so that people might understand him and to appoint from among his relations his brother, as his vizier, and to strengthen his back with Harun and to make Harun his partner in his work. O Allah! You said to Musa, We will strengthen your arms with your brother. No one will now have an access to either of you! O Allah! I am Mohammed and You have given me distinction. Open my chest for me, make my work easy for me and from my family appoint my brother Ali as my vizier Strengthen my back with him.*
The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) had not yet finished his prayers when Jibrael (a.s.) brought the above quoted verse.

  • Sunni References:
    At-Tabari: at-Tafsir, vol.6, pg 186
    · As-Suyuti : ad- Durrul Manthur, Vol. 2, Pgs. 293-4
    · Ar-Razi: at Tafsirul Kabir, vol. 12, pg. 26
    · Az- Zamakshari: at tafsir (al-Kashshaf), vol. 1, pg. 649
    · Al- Jassas: Ahkamul Quran, vol.2 pgs. 542-3
    · Al- Khazin : at-Tafsir, vol. 2, pg. 68

In regards to your concern about the meaning of Mawla in the hadith of Ghadeer posted above, I would recommend looking into the context of the incident to figure out what Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H may want to imply.

Following is the verse of Quran that was first revealed. This verse highlights the importance of the message that was about to be delivered:
“O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people …” (Qur’an 5:67)

Prophet Mohamamd P.B.U.H made the following speech after the revelation of the ayat above

“It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise).”

In the same speech he mentioned the following:
“For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla).”

The following verse was revealed after this, and people gave their oath of alligence to Hazrat Ali AS
“Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.” (Qur’an 5:3)

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir](http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir)

What meaning from the ones you mentioned suits best the incident. Also in the hadith if you claim Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H asked us to follow quran and sunnah won’t he tell us who should our source for sunnah be… considering quran testified islam was perfect at the time of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H … or would he leave us to pick and choose the hadith that suits our interest and rule others out dhaeef… Just to give you an example, I quoted a hadith from your Sahih book which asks to follow Quran and Ahleybait and I have heard there is a similar hadith in your books that claims Quran and Sunnah.

**I have quoted you Ayats from Quran which talks about obeying the personalities given the authority, at the same time Quran tells us not to obey the sinners and talks about the purity of Ahleybait… Doesn’t the hadith with Quran and Ahleybait suits this description ?

In the light of the following ayat, I have aquestions for you:
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority*;****** and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger****** if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.***** 4:59]

Question: I have given you some reference on wilayat of Imam Ali and Ahleybait based on the light of Quran… Can you give any ayats that justifies the leadership of Abu Bakr

**Again brother I would recommend reading the whole context before jumping to conclusions… Take a part of a text, while ignoring the rest of the passage may lead to wrong idea. I can recall going over the same letter with you awhile back. Following is the background on this letter:

** This is a letter to Mu’awiya and in it Imam Ali (a) has used the same principle that he applied on Talha and Zubayr. Imam Ali (a) in this letter has raised all the points which were once quoted against him. He says if an election on the basis of general franchise is the criterion to decide such a caliphate, then general election took place to elect him the Caliph and nobody can deny this fact, and if limited franchise (Shura) was the criterion then those who represented this group (Muhajirs and Ansars) were amongst those who elected him and therefore even according to the rules formulated by opponents of Imam Ali (a) his election was lawful, regular and bonafide. Thus no Muslim has a right to speak or act against him.

**

Read the letter for yourself with a open mind… Lets start by looking at events after the death of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H… When Imam Ali AS was busy with the funeral services of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H a group of mahajirs and ansar met at Sakeefa and elected Abu Bakr as khaleefa, the people who were not present at this event were not allowed to oppose this selection and it was presumed whoever was selected by this shura became caliph as per approval of Allah.

When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Imam Ali (AS), Muawiyah refused to comply apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to provide an excuse for his disloyalty, he claimed that since he did not participate in the election, the election of Imam Ali (AS) was unlawful, and thus there should be another general election. This was while
Abu Bakr was elected by a very few number of people and there was no national vote so that one could consider the caliphate of Abu Bakr as a result of people’s election. But the rulers who came after the Prophet imposed upon people that this is what election means, and this became a principle imposed on people and assumed to be their verdict that whoever
the nobles of Medina elect would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam, and no person has right to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not, and that no one has right to reconsider the matter.

Here, in this letter to Muawiyah, Imam Ali (AS) is quoting the argument which was once employed against him when he refused to give his oath to Abu Bakr. Imam Ali (AS) mentioned that if an election by people is the criterion to decide on the Caliphate, a general election took place in Medina to elect him as Caliph by Emigrants and Helpers and nobody can deny this fact. Therefore even according to the principles formulated by the opponents of Imam Ali (AS), his election was lawful, regular and bonafide.Thus Muslim who already accepted such principles to legitimize the election of the Abu Bakr, have no the right to speak or act against him (Ali). AndMuawiyah had no right to propose re-election nor to refuse allegiance when, in practice, he recognized this principle for Abu Bakr.

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/9.html](http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/9.html)

I would recommend look at the whole context of the passage, using parts of it that feeds your interest may be misleading.

**

**

**Brother again, I would recommend before jumping to any conclusions, I would recommend look into the whole context for the sermon. Imam Ali AS, gave that sermon when people wanted to elect him Caliph after the murder of Usman. **

Please read the sermon below and it will clear things up for you:

“If you want me for your worldly ends, then I am not ready to serve as your instrument. Leave me and select someone else who may fulfil your ends. You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur’an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power. If you select someone else I would pay regard to the laws of the state and the constitution as a peaceful citizen should do. I have not at any stage tried to disrupt the collective existence of the Muslims by inciting revolt. The same will happen now. Rather, just as keeping the common good in view I have hitherto been giving correct advice, I would not grudge doing the same. If you let me in the same position it would be better for your worldly ends, because in that case I won’t have power in my hands so that I could stand in the way of your worldly affairs, and create an impediment against your hearts’ wishes. However, if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish.”******

I hope the above sermon would give you the true intentions of Hazrat Ali AS. It shows, how he perceived khilafat. Imam knew people around him and what their intension might be…. He denied Caliphate if people wanted him for wordly ends, and at the same time he clarified in the matter of right he would not care for any on, he clarified the following stand of his which is a duty of Imam

You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur’an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power.

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/91.htm](http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/91.htm)

If you doubts about this sermon and how Imam perceived Khilafat of that time, I would recommend looking into the history. There are groups of people who did not have any issues with the first few caliphs, but when the great personality who clarified his stand before people paid allegiance to him and who was declared Mawla by Holy Prophet P.B.U.H these people came against him and at the same time regard people who came against him as Ameer ul Momineen. ****

69

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Refer this:

70

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Salaam brother Texan Dude - Thank you for your reply and great effort.

Please refer to my earlier (partily quote below)

[QUOTE]
If you read it you will note that we are commanded to obey Allah and His Messenger; this obedience is Absolute /unconditional/total.

Then we are commanded to follow those of you who are in authority (Ulul Amr ). This obedience is NOT Absolute /unconditional/total because there is a possibility of Dispute/Disagreement (and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter) we must refer it to Allah and the messenger.

After passing away of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) we have to refer to the Quran and Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him).

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 4:59]

We are commanded to Follow:

1) Allah (swt) – Of course no one can have dispute with what Allah decrees.
2) The Messenger of Allah (saw) - Of course no one can have dispute with what The Messenger of Allah (saw) recommends.
3) Ulul Amr (those of you who are in authority)
[/QUOTE]

Now read the following: and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter

What are we advised to do?

refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day

Note: Disputes with Ulul Amr (those of you who are in authority) are referred to ONLY Allah and the messenger.

The clearly proves my point that:

1) to obey Allah and His Messenger; this obedience is Absolute /unconditional/total.
2) we are commanded to follow those of you who are in authority (Ulul Amr ). This obedience is NOT

Absolute /unconditional/total because there is a possibility of Dispute/Disagreement

So the Ulul Amr (those of you who are in authority) not Infallible but fallible Humans and liable to make mistakes intentionally or unintentionally and to solve disputes with them we have to refer to to Allah and the messenger if we are truely believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end

Let me repeat myself again

After disappearance of 12th Imam whom do 12er Shia turn to for guidance and obedience?

Their selected marjas – No Shia can claim that his marja is infallible – This marja has to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah through the Imams – true?

No Shia has the access to any infallible Imam thus can only refer to marja for Guidance and advice.

So how can you claim that you are following infallible people? You follow marjas and ayatullahs just as much as Sunnis follow Ulemah and Muftis! And they refer to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

You as you are now have no access to any Infallible person - do you agree to that? Only Marjas and Ayatullahs and they fallible humans.

You said:
[QUOTE]
Certainly Abu Bakr was elected by a limited Shura.
[/QUOTE]

Keep reading further and note carefully what Hz. Ali(ra) said:

1) And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars
2) whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.
3) If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others,
4) and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims
5) Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism. Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 6

So Abu Bakr (ra) selection by limited Shura was legitimately limited to ONLY for Muhajirs and Ansars and had the seal of approval of Allah and His pleasure!

Do you really want challenge Allah (swt) on this? If so, read the above points 4 & 5 and be prepared for the consequences! And that is: “Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.”

[QUOTE]
Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one [76:23]
[/QUOTE]

Now do you really believe that above ayah applies to Hz. Abu Bakr (ra)? (Keep in mind Allah (swt)’s Pleasure and Approval of Hz. Abu Bakr’s (ra) selection as the first Khalifah of the Propphet (saw)!!!

Also note that when in his last days when the Prophet (saw) could not lead the prayers he appointed Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) in his place. This is very significant as it clearly implies who the Prophet (saw) wanted to lead the Ummah after him. Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) of course

71

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

You have again used the word ‘Master’ for Mawla’ which is WRONG. The correct word is Wali and that what Quran says and is translated as ‘Guardian’ ‘Friend’ and never as Master. And it is never a LEADER!
See the following transaltions; All have translated as Guardian or Friend not Master! And in Arabic it is Wali.

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

5:55 Innama waliyyukumu Allahu warasooluhu waallatheena amanoo allatheena yuqeemoona alssalata wayutoona alzzakata wahum rakiAAoona

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

[Yusufali 5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

[Mohsin Khan 5:55] Verily, your wali (Protector or Helper) is none other than Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they are Raki’un (those who bow down or submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).

Let me correct you again Mawla means Guardian Counsellor Friend Adviser but never a master!

Only Shia believe that following ayah was revealed at Khum Ghadeer and it is false – this ayah was revealed at Arafaat after completion of Hajj.

“O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people …” (Qur’an 5:67)

Sunnis have no problem with the above hadith and that is not proof for Shia Imamate.

The following hadith compliments the above:

The Prophet(SAW) said:

“I am leaving you two things and you will never go astray as long as you cling to them – they are the Book of Allah and my Sunnah.” [Reported by Al- Haakim - Sahih].

72

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

I think you have only convinced yourself about wilayat of Hz. Ali (ra) Ayah has nothing to do with Imamate of Hz. Ali (ra)!

See the following link for status of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) in the Quran:

http://www.naqshbandi.org/chain/2.htm

No my dear Brother, I am not jumping to any hasty conclusions.

Hz. Ali (ra) is using the same logic and reason for his selection as to Khalifah as that of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra)

All that Hz. Ali (ra) is stating is that his selection to Khilafaat was as valid as that of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and had the approval and pleasure of Allah (swt), nothing more nothing less.

That is wrong! Hz. Mu’awiyah (ra) was demanding that Hz. Ali (ra) hand the murderers of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (ra) his very close relative for Qasas forthwith, whereas Hz. Ali wanted some time to get the situation in control before his could proceed with Justice to brutal murder of Hz. Uthman bin Affan (ra).

The above has been answered by Hz. Ali (ra) himself!!!

  1. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars
  2. whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.
    Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 6
73

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

But if the Imamate of ordained by Allah (swt) upon Hz. Ali (ra); Hz. Ali (ra) has not right to bargain it off for something else. This beyond him – He was very brave indeed and would have faced any hardship to proclaim his Imamate if indeed there was one.

Can you imagine the Prophet (ra) postponing his Prophethood just to satisfy some people? Never!!!

Following was his response!

“O my uncle! By Allah, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandoned this course, I would not abandon it until Allah has made it victorious, or I perish therein.

Refer to Nahjul Balagha SERMON 91

He said “We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible.”Hz. Ali (ra) did NOT KNOW people and what their Intentions were!!!!!!!

*When people decided to Swear allegiance(1) at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said: *

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Nahjul Balagha SERMON 91

About 25 years had passed from selection of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and about 22 year from nomination of Hz Umar al Khattab (ra) – These are new generation of people – most of the earlier people has passed away!!!!!

74

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Brother You have ignored to address the questions raised in this post.

75

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Brother read your two comments in regards to the same sermon. I gave you the following background in regards the letter you have quoted:

Your second argument seems to contradict the first, because it raises the following questions:

  1. If Mawiya was asking to handover the murderers of Usman, why do Hazrat Ali has to give him the argument that meets the criteria that was established back for the time of Abu Bakr??

  2. If you read the second part of the partial letter you have quoted, Imam Ali AS has clearly indicated about the intentions of Mawiya. Please read the second part from the same letter

ll

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter6.htm

As always I would advice you to look at context or the background before making any conclusions.

If you are still not convinced, read the letter 7:

Go read it again,
let me quote the following part gain

Imam Ali mentioned it **was **also supposed.. thats pretty clear he is using the argument to mention what was supposed back then, he met those criteria… Imam Ali didn’t mentioned (whoever they elected is as per approval and plesaure of Allah)…

Brother, as an Imam, his actions are what are in the interest of the time. There are events in the history where Prophet has done Sullah, do you ever use that to question Prophet and Allah SWT ability nauzubillah. Certainly Prophet knows whats the best in the interest of his time.

Similary Imam Ali AS is the Imam, and he needs to look what is in the interest of the time. Indeed Imam Ali AS was one of the bravest pesonalities of his time but considering Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H has just died, would raising sword would be a good answer. Since you like to refer to Nahjul Balagah, I would like to refer the following sermon of Mawla Ali AS. Where he has clarified why he did not pursue his right in the interest of islam and the reason for his silence.

“If had I attempted to pluck the unripe fruit of Caliphate then by this the orchard would have been desolated and I too would have achieved nothing, like these people who cultivate on other’s land but can neither guard it, nor water it at proper time, nor reap any crop from it. The position of these people is that if I ask them to vacate it so that the owner should cultivate it himself and protect it, they say how greedy I am, while if I keep quiet they think I am afraid of death. They should tell me on what occasion did I ever feel afraid, or flew from battle-field for life, whereas every small or big encounter is proof of my bravery and a witness to my daring and courage. He who plays with swords and strikes against hillocks is not afraid of death. I am so familiar with death that even an infant is not so familiar with the breast of its mother. Hark! The reason for my silence is the knowledge that the Prophet has put in my bosom. If I divulge it you would get perplexed and bewildered. Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason.”

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/5.htm

Infact as far as Khilfat is concerned, I would recommend read the following sermon of Imam Ali AS, where he clarified his stand and responsibilities as an Imam, but at the same time he did not wanted to pursue Khilafat if people wanted him to be Khaleefa for their worldly needs.

“If you want me for your worldly ends, then I am not ready to serve as your instrument. Leave me and select someone else who may fulfil your ends. You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur’an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power. If you select someone else I would pay regard to the laws of the state and the constitution as a peaceful citizen should do. I have not at any stage tried to disrupt the collective existence of the Muslims by inciting revolt. The same will happen now. Rather, just as keeping the common good in view I have hitherto been giving correct advice, I would not grudge doing the same. If you let me in the same position it would be better for your worldly ends, because in that case I won’t have power in my hands so that I could stand in the way of your worldly affairs, and create an impediment against your hearts’ wishes. However, if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish.”

And even after 25 years, Imam Ali AS clarified if they wanted him to be khaleefa he would only follow Quran and Sunnah, and after Imam Ali AS became Khaleefa, some people raged war against him, the great personality who was awarded sword by Allah SWT and yet you regard them as Ameer ul Momineen… Look at these examples yourselves and you would find the answer to the sermon yourself

In regards to your concern about the majority. I have already explained the two parts. As far as your equation is concerned, I would suggest read the following with an open minded and try to put yourself in the equation yourself:

In regards to the part of the sermon where Imam Ali is promoting unity, If you want to talk about stats, I would recommend do some homework and get the stats of all the 73 sects. Your arugment is quite vague.

76

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Why people waste time on these shia v sunni discussion much bigger problems we have than that, in pakistan sunni and shia people get along in the majority we live in same town, eat in same places, we watch when shia celebrate muharram and they watch when we do our celebration. It is the political agents that cause the problems we know some foriegners love for the sunni and shia to have war!

77

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

good references Texan_Dude but let us concentrate on things that unite us : Allah , the belief in the last prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h), the Quran and the The Kabbah .

I belive Imam Ali replied with this when a jew taunted him saying that the Muslims are not even united , and he said that Muslims are united on what i mentioned above. So while it's important to know history don't get divided ,not when Muslims are so few already.

78

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Btw commemorate is a better word as celebration is for happiness..

79

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Nuttela I agree with you on this matter. I personally don't like to engage myself in such discussions. However, there are a few fellow guppies, who have an agenda of posting links of website that promotes hatredness and alot of information in these links are questionable. If you look at my posts, I tried to defend these statments without trying to offend others.

I think with the interest of time, a ban should be imposed on such threads specially when people are posting links to some websites which have questionable information. I can find and post a serveral myself if I wanted too.

80

Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

i do not believe these are the words or Ali RA but they are interesting bearing in mind shia beliefs

[QUOTE]
if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish."

[/QUOTE]

so was this the basis for Ali (ra) taking allegiance?
has Ali (ra) changed tact in 'not caring for anyone' now, so from now on according to these lies he will forbid the bad?

its proper fascinating as Ali (ra) according to the shia kept shum when hisrights were usurped, his child killed, his wife beaten, rejected at midnight by the muhajareen when he went to ask for his rights along with fatima, hassan, hussein RA. oh the oppression, i could go on for ever