Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed Imam

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Salaam brother Texan_Dude. There is no contradiction here at all.

In similar vein I too would advise look at context or the background before making any conclusions.

Hz. Ali (ra) is forwarding the proof that he is the legitimate elected leader just as much as Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all).

He is clearly stating that the selection of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all) was “as per approval and pleasure of Allah”.

This is exactly what Hz. Ali (ra) believed that Allah (swt) was pleased with and approved of the selection of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all) as the leaders of the Believers.

He clearly stated that the difference in their stance was that he should not be blamed for the murder of Hz. Uthman (ra).

And he emphasizes that they were on same Belief.

The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it…………………………………………………………………. Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 58

Reasons of fighting were not the caliphate, rather disposal of the killers of Hz.Uthman (ra).

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

How wrong you are brother!

Now let’s consider Letter 6 of Nahjul Balagha

Shia Websites have very deliberately added their own words for their Imam when translating Letter 6 of Nahjul balagha – this is criminal and they have done this without any fear of Allah (swt).
Following is from renowned Shia Site

*Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was (supposed to be) limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and (it was also supposed that) whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

*http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter6.htm#letter6

I have highlighted and bracketed the interpolated words delibratedly attributed to Hz. Ali (ra).

**Correct translation **

Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him.

Note:
(supposed to be)
(it was also supposed that)

This is very serious, the above words were never uttered by the pious Imam (ra). With what audacity and daring have the people at the Shia Site put the words in their Imam’s mouth just to score some cheap points thus misleading the people. The above words have been interpolated into the letter.

(Interpolation: To change or falsify (a text) by introducing new or incorrect material.)

If you don’t believe me then read the following – Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha in Arabic – very words that Hz. Ali (ra) uttered! This is a Shia Site.

ومن كتاب له(عليه السلام)
إلى معاوية

 إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاَْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى.

http://www.islamology.com/Resources/Nahj_Imam/Letters/book/06.htm

Read the last 3 words in the part in the top line on the left and then beginning of words from right on the second line (I could not highlight the words) I have tried to Transliterate

Fa innej’maoohu alaa rajalun wasamawahoo Imaman Kana dhalikallhu radiyunn.

So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.

Note that Hz. Ali (ra) has chosen the word Imam!

You must agree that Hz. Ali ( was very eloquent and expert in Arabic language and that he chose his words very judiciously and with great care.

To sum it up Hz. Ali (ra) considered the selection of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all) was “as per approval and pleasure of Allah”.

Before we can move on any further, Please confirm with any Arab person that you know to confirm that Letter 58 in Arabic does NOT have following words: (supposed to be) (it was also supposed that).

Let’s settle this issue. It is extremely important that we do this. And will see that it will benefit you too.

May be some person who knows a bit of Arabic can confirm this. **[Brother Psyah **can you help here, please?]

I think you can include me with you, yes? :hypo:

Salaam respected sister ramesha - ???

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Salams Ibn Sadique bro

To the best of my ability I have got half of the translation to the important bit which is:

And from his book (alayhisalam) to Mu’awiya

Verily the people who pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, pledged to us the pledging they pledged to them.

**It is not for who witnessed that to choose the contrary. However it is not for who was absent to counter. **

Verily what the collective of The Migrants and The Helpers come to agree about a man, and declare him Imam, that would be a pleasure to Allah.

Just comparing this much so far to this:

[quote]
*Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was (supposed to be) limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and (it was also supposed that) whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.
[/quote]

*It is clear that certain things are not said in the Arabic that are being said in the English ...

1) The English appears as though first the people pledged to Abu Bakr (RA), Umar, (RA), and Uthman (RA) and then changed or defected to pledge to Ali (RA), but in Arabic there is clarity that he Ali (RA) specifically states pledged to them i.e. previous (Imams/Caliphs) the SAME pledge that he (RA) has been given ...

2) The English states - "have no right to oppose me" but this is also incorrect ... it should be "cannot oppose that basis for the original pledge where others stood witness to it"

3) You are right there is no place in the Arabic for the conditions of appointing a new Imam to be (supposed) - that notion is not there at all ... It is categorical Ali (RA) is saying that if a collective from the Ansar (RA) and Muhajjroon (RA) are unanimous on appointing a given person with Imamate then that decision is binding and in accordance with Divine Will and Pleasure.

Note ... In Arabic to use the word "verily" shows strong emphasis, this would not be in context with the words "supposed to be" as that shows low emphasis ... the translation is surely tampered to give off a different meaning to the one in Arabic.

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Wa’alaykum Salaam brother Pysah May Allah (swt) reward you immensely.

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

.

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

I will request my Sunni and Shia brothers to read Musa al-Musawi's book al-Shi’a wa-l-tashih (Shia and Shiaism). A lot of misconception that was spread in 2nd and 3rd century by an underground movement is explained by no other but a top Shia scholar himself. Its available in pdf format as well somewhere on web. I read it but couldn't find the link this time.

Its time that we unite under one flag and not get distracted by false aqaaid inserted by latter people and not taught by Prophet SAW himself.

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

^sallaam

do you have a link or site name for the mentioned book?

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

day by day I start believing that the apes are our forefathers! Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, Wahabai, Alevite. Why is that we have 73 sects in Islam instead of being ONE as Rasool-ul-Allah (saw) told us to be or am I in the wrong thread? These differences make me sick when there shouldn't be any.

Here we are fighting what happened in the past. Why not fight for something good in future? Why not begin from scratch? Forgive and forget. Become one. I pray and hope that this happens in my lifetime. Ameen.

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Will you accept the Islam that the majority represent? If so, then simply find the majority and join it ... if we start from scratch what will be the criteria for us to become one?

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

bigboi you are wrong, Prophet SAW prayed for his Ummah to be united, but it was not accepted according to one hadith.
Prophet SAW said once when asked about sects in Islam that there will be 73 (one more than Christianity).

Sharmandy, I don’t have link, but you can find alot of references and commentry on his book. He was regarded as reformer among athna-asharis and was graduated from Qum, belongs to a noble family and is a grandson of a famous Ayutullah. There is a lot of critism on him from hardcore pro matum/tabbarrah athna-ashari. He has proved alot of things in modern Shi’ism as fabricated/false based on their own early books and narrations. Also elaborates relationship between Sahaba and Ahle-bait according to Imams which was nothing but respect and love.

Here is the commentry on the book Redirect Notice

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

thank you for correction, apologies if i offend anybody i will use the excuse that english is not my first language :)

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Neither "majority" nor "minority" are valid grounds to say that a philosophy is the truth.
Quite obviously one can not just follow the majority thinking that they have the numbers so they must be right. From global perspective there are 2B Christians, but are they right according to us? From Islamic perspective, 72 in Karbala stood along Imam Hussain (as) against the Muslim army of thousands yet the truth was with the minority. Quran condones "majority" in many verses and calls them "astray", "ungrateful", and "followers of conjecture". From my understanding of the Holy Quran I take that the number of true, sincere believers is small (regardless of what tags people attach to themselves be it Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jew et. al).

As for the criteria to become one and building ground for unity unity. The fundamental point is that we must force ourselves in believing that everybody who utters the shahada is a Muslim. Very simple notion that is taught by the Quran, Prophet (saww) and his Ahlul Bayt (as) themselves.

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Shaytaan has declared open enmity to the Mankind and has vowed to lead mankind astray by guile.

[QUOTE]
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe. [7:27]
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Iblees (Satan); he was not with the prostrators.
He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said, "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud."
He said, "Therefore, you must go down, for you are not to be arrogant here. Get out; you are debased."[7:14]
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
He said, "Grant me a respite, until the Day of Resurrection."
He said, "You are granted a respite."
He said, "Since You have willed that I go astray,* I will skulk for them on Your straight path.
"I will come to them from before them, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left, and You will find that most of them are unappreciative."
He said, "Get out there from, despised and defeated. Those among them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all. [7:11 - 18]]
[/QUOTE]

*Allah (swt) has warned us time and again about enmity of Shaytaan and commanded Believers about keeping Unity and avoiding divisions *

*Verily, he is to you an open enemy. (Al-Baqarah 2:168)

O you who believe! Enter perfectly in Islâm (by obeying all the rules and regulations of the Islâmic religion) and follow not the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan). Verily! He is to you a plain enemy (Al-Baqarah 2:208)

Surely the Shaitan is your enemy, so take him for an enemy; he only invites his party that they may be inmates of the burning fire. 35:6

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. [3:103]

And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement. [3:105]

Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. [6:159]

[or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets]. 30:32 *

The Prophet (saw) has warned us against division and being Rahmatul Lil Alamin he has shown us how to save ourselves.

*And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds. (Noble Qur'an, 21:107)

Say: O people! I am only a plain warner to you. [22:49]

Say: I am only a warner, and there is no god but Allah, the One, the Subduer (of all): 38:65]*

"One day Prophet Muhammad PBUH), drew a line in the sand for them and said, "This is Allah's path." He then drew several lines to the right and to the left and said, "These are the paths [of misguidance] on each of which is a devil inviting people to follow it." He then recited the verse: 'Verily, this is my path, leading straight, so follow it. And do not follow the [other] paths for they will scatter you about from Allah's path. That is His command to you in order that you may be conscious of Allah' (Hadith by Ahmed).

"The best of my people are my generation then those who come after them, then those who come after them, then there will come a people in whom there will be no good." [At-Tabaranee, authenticated by al-Albanee]

"The tribes of Israel broke into seventy- two sects. My Ummah shall break up into seventy-three sects. All of them will be in the Fire, except one: the one on which I am upon, and my Companions." [At-Tirmidhee]

”You are the best of peoples ever raised for mankind, you enjoin good and forbid evil, and you believe in Allah.” [3:110]

He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently. [42:13]

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity. [58:22]

People will not heed but take delight in their own sect.

[or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets]. 30:32

The Prophet (saw) warned us of division and sectarianism and being Rahmatul Lil Alamin he gave us the advise on following the correct path. But then sectarianism takes over and everyone takes delight in his/her version.

May Allah (swt) guide to the straight and right path - ameen

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Quran states that from Mankind – Majority will not follow the Truth! The Believers will always be in a minority.

Count all the non-Muslims globally – they are in Majority!

We are discussing Majority within the Muslims (Believers).

The example you have given is within Muslims. Good Muslims vs the bad Muslims. Better illustration would have been the battle of Badr, minority Muslims vs Majority Kuffar.

Quran condemns “majority" of Mankind but not the "majority" of Believers!

Please don’t confuse yourself between “majority" of Mankind & the "majority" of Believers!

Your statement that: “everybody who utters the shahada is a Muslim” is conditionally true.

Will you apply that to the Ahmadiyah or Alevis (those who take Hz. Ali (ra) to be God!) They do recite the Kalimah Tayyibah.

That’s the reason the Prophet (saw) said about 73 sects within Muslims.

So he warned his Ummah not to follow the fringe sects but be with Majority of the Believers:

*The Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "The Jews split into 71 groups; one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 groups; 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose Power is the life of Muhammad, without doubt, my Ummah will be divided into 73 groups. Only one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell."
When asked which group will be on the right path, the holy Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) replied, "The main (al-Jama'ah) body of the Muslims." [Ibne Majah Kitab al-Fitan]

The Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
When asked which group will be on the right path, the holy Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmizi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]

The Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-Azam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]

The Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said “Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!" [Ibne Majah]

The Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "The devil continually pursues humans as a wolf pursues sheep. The wolf only dares to attack those sheep which have separated from the rest of the flock and are standing alone. And so, my followers and my devotees! Save yourselves from being caught in the traps of misguidance and firmly remain with the largest and most well known group of Muslims!" Imam Ahmed]

The Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah's mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell." Tirmizi]

The Prophet (Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " He who deviates from the largest group of Muslims, even as much as a hand span, has himself cut off his connection with Islam." [Abu Daud, Imam Ahmed] *

That is exactly what Hz. Ali (ra) is warning about!

That doesn't mean just because someone is from the Majority, he/she will 'automatically' enter Jannah, one has to have the good deeds to show. There should be no complacency/smugness or comfort of being from the majority. Good deeds have to be part of having correct beliefs.

At the same time there could be a very pious person with good deeds from the minority but will have to account for his/her sectarian beliefs.

There is NO free tickect to Jannah except those who deserve it. And where pointed out by the Prophet (saw).

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Thanks for that ... JazakAllahuKhair ... I could not have said it better ...

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

errr. ok!

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

^ and this is ur reponse?.....c'mon bro.....I am a little busy with my company opening an office in dubai.....but when I get time I will sit down with a cuppa and answer post 52 onwards........where I left off.........mA great to c the unity b/w my ahulay Sunnat wal jamaat brothers in the meantime.........

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Peace Pagluu

It would have been better had you not responded ... I posed the question to Bigboi ... but you queried me knowing fully what I would say next ... but brother Ibn Sadique answered on my behalf anyway and included references from your sources too - that is why I couldn't have said it better ...

This is not a battle to see who will win ... I hope you understand that ... As long as we understand the position of whom we discuss then it is up to each of us to decide which way to go - or remain.

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Re: Part 1:The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed

Then keep on fighting. Waste your time. Divide & Rule. Have fun.