papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Kafir keh kay tou nahin maara gaya tha Benazir ko.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

The Suicide bombers are prepared to kill Kafirs .
They are told that these Sunies are Mushrik ,Shias are Kafir and these leaders are kafirs or agents of Kafirs and they will go direct to heaven after killing them .

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Instead why don't you remove this meaningless thread?

24

Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

yaani bibi muhawaratan musalman thi?

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

ohh meray khuda
Natqah sar ba greban hay isay kia kahiay
ناطقہ سر بہ گریباں ہے اسے کیا کہئے.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Interesting to see those who call others takfeeri do the same act when it suits them.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

^^^ Instead of making wild accusations, can you please let us know 'who' you are referring to in your above post as ‘takfeeri’ and in which post you think takfeer was done?

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Legally elected prime minister bhi mujrim hotay hain...woh farishtay nahi hotay. Aur legally elected to Sheikh Mujib-ur-Rehman tha, jis kay mandate ko Bhutto ney bhi maannay sey inkaar kiya tha.....aur ussay milli bhagat sey hataya gaya tha.

PPP folks seem to think that since Bhutto was hanged, and Benazir was killed in a terrorist attack, that somehow it means they were innocent. I agree that Bhutto did not get his day in court, and also agree that Benazir's death was a tragedy. But that doesnt change the fact that they committed political crimes on a colossal scale.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Very nice.
True that calling someone 'takfiri' is not equivalent to calling him 'kafir'.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

aaiyena jo dikhaya to naaraz ho gaye :hehe:

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Calling someone Jahannumi is like taking God's work in to our hand.

One can criticize all one wants the dead or alive people for their actions, but one cannot sanction final destination to those people.

In other thread you brought hadiths to support killing of people which I mentioned about three times in that thread is not a good act.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

I agree ZAB was not an angel neither is you.

What crime he had committed during his tenure as PM?

This has been discussed zillions time. Bhutto was not in power to decide. Had Mujib nominated by Yahya Khan, no one would have dared to challenge it.

Mujib was never given the power, "ussay milli bhagat sey hataya gaya tha" kis ne us ko hataya tha, ya yeh tumhara zehni ikhtelaj hay.

[quote]
But that doesnt change the fact that they committed political crimes on a colossal scale.
[/quote]

What do you mean by political crime? Can you elaborate or name any one committed by ZAB? tum kya jano ke zafran kya hota hay, jab woh kahin se guzarta tha, mauj dar mauj awam ki us ka sirf deedar karnay puhanch jaati thi.

Politician like IK was just like kindergarten kid to him.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

You are absolutely wrong.

1: Calling someone Jahannumi is not takfeer neither it is taking work of Allah in own hand.

2: You are right that one cannot sanction final destination to any person, as that only Allah can do.

3: You are wrong about calling someone Jahannumi … as one can say that certain acts are acts of Jahannumi, and that anyone guilty of such acts are Jahannumi who will burn in hell forever.

For instance, one can say that:
A: Shirk is an act of Jahannumi, Mushriks are jahannumi … and that persons who do Shirk would burn in hell forever.
B: Zulum is an act of Jahannumi, Zalims are Jahannumi … and that persons who do Zulum would burn in hell forever.
C: Takfeer is an act of Jahannumi, Takfeeris are Jahannumi … and that persons who do Takfeer would burn in hell forever.

And so on … and in same way … one can say that:

D: Corruption is an act of Jahannumi, Corrupts are Jahannumi … and that persons who do corruption would burn in hell forever.

If you read my post, you will see that I did not specifically named a single person but only wrote that corruption is act of Jahannumi, corrupts are Jahannumi, and that all who do corruption or have done corruption are going to burn in hell forever. … thus there is nothing wrong in my statement.

If you find that I said anything different than show me and I would repent, but if you could not find that, then I believe, you should apologise, else you would be answerable to me on judgment day for making baseless accusation on me.

[Note: If I would not name any particular person as dosakhee than it would be because I do not know with certainty that the person is really corrupt or it is just perception. Anyhow, if a person is really corrupt then there is little doubt of him being dosakhee, as his sin is not against ‘right of Allah’ that Allah being most merciful may forgive him, but his sin and guilt is against people like you and me, and obviously 180 million Pakistanis (each one of them) could not forgive corrupts, so dozakh for corrupts is certain (and that certainty is nothing to do with taking decision for Allah as the decision on judgement day for corrupts going to dozakh would be of 180 million people he harmed, deceived, and brought misery to]

Your referring to other thread:

I advocated that government should fight and kill who are Khwarijees, rather keep making unending negotiation with them. I still stand on that view.

Actually, in the thread you mentioned, you showed complete ignorance about Khwarijees. I ignored your post because I felt that you are incapable of understanding or you are just pretending that you do not understand. Your ignorance was obvious when you wrote in your post that:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/600370-twin-blasts-rock-karachi-14.html#post9478802

Reading above post, I gave up. Though:

In above statement, you are not only showing ignorance but most disturbing is that, when you wanted to talk about Khwarijees, at least you could have done some reading and research, but you did not even bothered to do that, rather wrote probably without reading anything.

Fact different to what you wrote is that:

Khwarijees [the one that rose during Ali (RA) time] was entirely a religious movement, rather religious cult. They had no political ambition, political agenda or political interest.

They did believe in head of state philosophy.

They did believe that ‘rule is of Allah alone’, but did not believe that ‘Only Allah is ruler’ in literal sense, as it is obvious Allah would not come to earth to rule. What they believed is that ruler (representative of Allah on earth) should only rule according to book of Allah (Quran), what all Muslims believe, but the difference between them and Muslims is in interpretation of Quran.

They, rather all Muslims believe that Quraish in any respect are not superior or inferior to Muslims, rather superiority of a person depends on his Ilm, Iman, Amaal, Taqwa, and so on.

Actually, Kharijees themselves were all Arabs from Arabian peninsula though mostly from Najd. But then, it is possible that some might be from Hijaz and Yemen … and it is possible that some amongst them might be Quraish.

Some people think that since Kufa and Basra is in Iraq, people in Kufa and Basra must be Iraqis, but that is not true. Kufa and Basra were garrison cities established during time of Umar (RA) when Muslims were fighting Persian, and thus inhabitants of Kufa and Basra are mostly Muslim Arabs and their descendants from Arabian peninsula.

Khwarijees did fight along with Ali (RA) in battle of Siffin. At that time, they were considered Muslims and part of Ali (RA) army.

They were upset about arbitration that followed battle siffin. Actually, when facing defeat, Ameer Muawiya raised Quran and asked for arbitration. A group (later to become Khwarijs) in Ali (RA) army, seeing Quran raised, started persuading Ali (RA) to agree for arbitration, but got discontent after realising the deception from Ameer Muawiya under the cover of arbitration, started saying that arbitration was sinful act, started ‘repenting to Allah’ on their initial agreement and persuasion for arbitration, and started asking Ali (RA) to repent too, but when Ali (RA) did not agreed on their interpretation that arbitration was sinful act, and did not agree that he should repent, they left Ali (RA) armed forces.

It was these people who after leaving army of Ali (RA), started doing Takfeer according to their understanding of Islam (and Quran), and started persecuting and killing Muslims because of their ‘takfeer and understanding of Islam’ (what Pakistani Khwarijees are doing today). Ali (RA) went after them to safeguard Muslims from their ‘fitna’. Ali (RA) tried to talk with this group, and most in the group repented and joined Ali (RA) again. Though some who stayed adamant fought Ali (RA) at Naharwan and were mostly killed.

[Note: These people are not called Kharijees because they left Ali (RA) army, neither Ali (RA) fought them because they rebelled, or showed aggression against Ali (RA) or attacked Ali (RA) rule.

Ali (RA) fought them because they started creating fitna with their takfeer, persecution and killing Muslims.]

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

So after you acknowledged and agreed that it is God’s prerogative to place someone in hell (or heaven), you continued to justify calling and sanctioning someone jahannumi.

We cannot call anyone jahannumi.

Even if there are Quran and hadiths saying who might be jahannumi, this does not mean we start using Quran and Hadiths to call fellow human being jahannumi. It is like making God bound to his words.

God can change the destiny of anyone based on something we do not know.

Calling Bhutto a jahannumi, cursing him and denying him namaze janaza is wrong.

Certainly cursing like this is not allowed in Islam.

I stand by what I said in different thread.

Will be glad to discuss that in the related thread.

For now, I just wanted to mention you have extremist ideas. :slight_smile:

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Here you are saying that God is unjust (Nauzobillah) that he would forgive Zulum of Zalim on Mazloom (as corrupts are Zalim and their Zulum is on Nation ... for Pakistan it is 180 million people)?

I do not know how much you believe that Allah is just ... and that Zalim would get punished if Mazloom do not forgive him (not Allah, but Mazloom)?

It is surprising that you feel so upset when I say that a person who do Zulum is Zalim and would end up in Dosakh. I only thought that corrupts would get upset with my that (true) statement, but then, maybe, you took that personal.

Anyhow, who knows, it seems your beliefs are different than mine, where you think that Allah is Zalim (nauzobillah) and would forgive corrupts regardless of whatever harm their corruption has done to Nation, without even giving justice of decision to people who are wronged ... so I should leave your belief with you.

[quote]
Calling Bhutto a jahannumi, cursing him and denying him namaze janaza is wrong.

Certainly cursing like this is not allowed in Islam.
[/quote]

Again lies and baseless accusations (Bohtan)... but then you might not have believe that Allah has sent Laanat on Liars and wrong accusers. What can I say?

It is lie and baseless accusation that I ever called Bhutto a corrupt, a cursed person, or that he should not have had Namaz-e-Janaza.

From whatever I wrote in any of my numerous posts on this forum or in any forum ... you wrote about me that:

[quote]
Calling Bhutto a jahannumi, cursing him and denying him namaze janaza is wrong.

Certainly cursing like this is not allowed in Islam.
[/quote]

If you are not LIAR and ACCUSER (Bothan Daraz) than bring out and quote from any of my numerous posts what you are accusing me of saying.

I know that your English seems Royal where you could not understand simple sentences ... so I am writing in Urdu (hoping that you may understand that).

May nay yea kaheen bhie or Kaheen bhie nahie kaha kay Bhutto Dosakhee tha, lanatee tha, aur uss ko Namaz-e-Janaza nahi milni Chahiyea thee.

May nay yea kaha ka Bhutto ko tou Namaz-e-Janaza mili, meri dua hay kay jo corrupts hain unhay Namaz-e-Janaza bhie na milay iss liya ka corrupts dosakhee hotay hain.

*.

[Actually, it is fact too, that I consider Bhutto of many wrongdoings, unintentional and intentional, but do not consider that Bhutto was corrupt].

Anyhow, I do not care what you do and how you would answer for your 'lies and wrong accusations' after death ... but I would like you to stop spreading Lies and making baseless accusations about me and my posts.*

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

One of the fitna of Akharah is spread of lies, deception, propaganda, and accusations. These tools of Shaitan would become so widespread that truth would hide behind these tools of Shaitan and and people would get misguided.

We should remember that meaning of Dajjal is Liar, deceiver, dhokay-baaz. Al-Mashih-Al-Dajjal means Liar-Mashih who Christians call Anti-Christ (or Liar-Christ, deceiver-Christ).

People with Dajjal would not be only those who call themselves Christians or Jews, but a large number of Muslims would join Dajjal and his work.

One should always ask refuge of Allah from fitna of Liars, Deceivers, propagandist, and Accusers.

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Actually I made a case of God being merciful.

You brought Bhutto in same sentence as corrupts and devils/ looters ( "being worse than Bhutto")...and then cursed. Hence, the confusion.

But as a matter of principle, all I want you to understand, that we cannot sanction anyone (Bhutto or anyone) as jahannumi, which is worse than calling someone kaafir.

Since even Kaafir may not go to Jahannum..if repents or forgiven. :)*

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

Just look at what I wrote:

Now, how on earth you understood from above post or assumed that I called Bhutto Jahannumi, I cursed Bhutto, I considered him corrupt, or I was against his Namaz-e-Janaza?

It is obvious that my target in above post was not Bhutto but Corrupts (without even naming any particular person as corrupt). Actually, in above post I talked about corrupts and prayed that their end should happen worse than Bhutto whose end was bad but not as bad what I hoped corrupts end should be, as Bhutto had Namaz-e-Janaza and I wish that corrupts do not even get Namaz-e-Janaza.

[quote]
But as a matter of principle, all I want you to understand, that we cannot sanction anyone (Bhutto or anyone) as jahannumi, which is worse than calling someone kaafir.
Since even Kaafir may not go to Jahannum..if repents or forgiven.

[/quote]

No doubt there is no certainty that kafirs would go to Jahannum, as Allah is most merciful and Kufr is sin between Allah and his creation, so however bad sin between Allah and his creation could be, one cannot say that Allah would not show mercy and forgive the sinner. [Actually, there is hadith that on judgment day, mercy of Allah would overshadow all his attributes … and thus with that overshadowing mercy, one can expect anything forgiven].

It is this reason that Allah is merciful and may forgive his creation regardless of severity of the sin, I believe, Allah has taken away from himself the right to forgive sins a person commits towards other of Allah’s creation … so that dozakh could get filled from sinners who are guilty of Allah’s other creations (by their abuses, accuses, lies, deceptions, robbing, looting, harming, bribes, nepotism, plundering, violating their rights, etc).

Corrupts are not sinners of Allah alone, but are sinners of people, and on judgement day no person who would be unsure of own salvation would forgive their sinner. From what I know, most who would go to Jahannum would be sinners of other humans.

Situation on judgement day would be such that even close relatives (like parents, children, etc) would not forgive each other, until they would be certain of their own salvation, so corrupts getting forgiveness from 180 million people whom corrupts deceived, abused, looted, plundered, robbed, etc … would be unlikely, hence corrupts is almost certain to go to hell … or are Jahannumi with good certainty (here one is not questioning mercy of Allah, but assuming that 180 million people whom corrupts abused, would not forgive these corrupts).

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Re: papa bhuto ki namz-y-janza

I understand where you are coming from in terms of huqooqul-Ibaad, but I have made my position very clear so no need for me to repeat.

With your analogy, a whole lot of people might be jahannumi automatically.

Let's just hope we do not curse others and wish that we are not the ones who end up asking for forgiveness from other people.