Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
Patriot,
ABC reported that cheney gave proof of this guy's location and said arrest him or US will do the job. I wish our Jarnails realize that you cannot directly **** with the US. Had they handed this guy over before the pressure came, we would have saved our dignity as well as won international praise. Now our credibility is in tatters along with our dignity.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
jaanbaaz I agree, only..the only saving grace is if your 'intelligence' had no clue where this guy was and US intelligence did. Which then raises the questions that aside from dicking around in how the country is run what exactly does ISI do.
I have not been this disappointed in our govt for a very long time.
pkpatriot, I agree on the tact point too. what a friggin joke..
Re: Pakistan’s uncanny ability to produce a new arrest …
I would respectfully suggest that the “agencies” were probably tracking this guy for a while and pounced when the time was right. There is too much at stake with respect to moles pleaced inside Taliban etc to just pull this character out of a hat. It is especially doubtful if you consider that he was arrested on the day of Cheney’s visit to Pakistan. That would mean that Musharraf has a few hundred of these fundos tied up and just rings the corps commander to pull them out of a hat. Besides, if he was really pulling these guys out of a hat, he would have started with the small fish rather than delivering someone so big. Ok this is all conjecture on my part so don’t throw things at me now.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
Bhai
Do you think Cheney would move his fat ass out of his safe hideout for small fry?
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
mufakkar, i can see the logic in your argument, if u scroll back and see, I thought that could be a possibility as well i.e. they had been tracking him.
but there is no right here...
if they were tracking him, they should have either arrested him before cheney visit, or keot on tracking him to find other morons and given a bakers dozen of morons. as someone said, the tact of a freight train
if they were keeping him in some kind of reserve..that is just grossly idiotic.
I have always defended this govt on what I think it is doing right, and fairness dictates that I show my disgust at this scenario because I think it was just handled in a piss poor manner.
Re: Pakistan’s uncanny ability to produce a new arrest …
Fraudia,
As I pointed out, if we were tracking this commander, then Musharraf is guilty of lying. Remember last year when Musharraf and Karzai feuded in America?
See this - South Asia: Karzai, Musharraf Spar Ahead Of Bush Meeting
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
^ oh bhai, did you even understand what I was saying, I am not defending the govt so there is no need to try and convince me that this is ridiculous.
Re: Pakistan’s uncanny ability to produce a new arrest …
Got it. My bad. It’s been a long day and too many serious posts.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
so i dunno what this is
a) is/was musharraf lying?
b) does he not have control of his own intelligence services and is being fed bull**** that he is then telling to the world
c) is this part of some ridiculous strategy of either keeping a trump card for the guaranteed future pakhtoon issue, or to keep the aid from US coming
either way, either friggin way, its just plain simple idiotic...
bah...
what a damn joke...wake the hell up mr president..and smell the capuccino..
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
Spock, why would they not seek shelter in such places when Taliban leaders know they have ISI protection as long as they follow the gameplan.
And of course the army (some part of it anyway) is lying, just like during Kargil. Dare I say even America has better credibility despite Iraq fiasco.
Most likely, he was either in ISI safehouse or a location which ISI was already aware of, but the Americans only recently found out that ISI was protecting him, so Cheney flew down and threatened Musharraf to either arrest him or America would bomb that location. Maybe Cheney bought with him the GPS coordinates of the ISI safe house. It's not the first time that America has shown satellite pictures to Musharraf about what is happening under his own nose while he was either clueless or played dumb.
Re: Pakistan’s uncanny ability to produce a new arrest …
Mr. Fraudia,
You are right. the government seems to be very stupid arresting these guys in Quetta especially now, but then again when lay people like us can recognize the significance, surely we can allow the people innvolved (ISI/Army/‘agunsian’) at least the same cognizance of conditions, if not professional expertise in intelligence and diplomacy 
and be able to say maybe the opportunity to nab this guy was too good to pass up despite all the givens
I really don’t think they were keeping tha Taliban guy in reserve as that would be very hard to keep under wraps. Already, as it appears from BBC, the gov’t hasn’t acknowledged the arrest and it was revealed by someone requesting anonymity.
I was offering my conjecture based on the past record of Mush where he has offered up much bigger fish readily such as Ramzi Bin Al Shibh and Khalid Shiekh Muhammad, so there is no reason to change tactics now. Someone could say well this is the Taliban and some elements still support the Taliban etc. If that were the case and this was cosmetic because of Cheney turning the screws, they would have offered up some smaller fish, rather than such a big catch who would be very credible if they were to ‘admit’ that ISI is hand in glove with the Taliban etc.
Also notice there has been just an arrest and no sudden un explained ‘raids’ in the tribal areas. That suggests that in the context of the Taliban at least, the government stuck to its guns re: the peace deal and all.
Again this is all conjecture on my part and I could be completely off the mark.
Re: Pakistan’s uncanny ability to produce a new arrest …
Unlike some of the scholars here, who seem to have all the exclusive information about what really happened, I have to rely on news which are not always credible and often misleading. Anyhow Pakistan should not make such arrests until after at least one month of American leaders’ visits. Unfortunately, these visits are a common occurrence. Last time when Gates was on his first visit to Afghanistan, an attack was ordered by his majesty, Perves Musharraf, in FATA. I had similar apprehensions about that attack as have been shared by our know-all scholars here. Later his majesty clarified that they had been monitoring the compounds for a while and the information had been shared with the allies. Nevertheless, I had no way of verifying the claims, so I decided not to comment. Another piece of news that I found interesting;
*ISLAMABAD/KABUL: Pakistani security forces have captured a high-ranking Taliban leader in Quetta, **a senior security official and Taliban sources said on Thursday. *The capture of Mullah Obaidullah Akhund marked the first time Pakistan had arrested a senior leader of the militia since it was driven from power in Afghanistan in 2001, and thousands of its fighters fled into Pakistan. The security official, who requested anonymity, and the Taliban sources said Akhund, the third most senior member of the Taliban’s 10-member leadership council, was arrested late on Monday, hours after a visit to Pakistan by US Vice-President Dick Cheney. The head of the Interior Ministry’s Crisis Management Unit, retired Brigadier Javed Iqbal Cheema, denied Akhund had been detained. reuters
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\03\02\story_2-3-2007_pg1_8
So was he really detained? Or is he on his way to Gitmo already? What do the scholars say?
Re: Pakistan’s uncanny ability to produce a new arrest …
Really? Didnt know that… Lol, still, Pakistans reputation is screwed up no matter what it does. This is just another penny in the jar.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
You don't need to be a scholar to know that ISI has a soft spot in their hearts for Taliban, but not so much for Al Qaeda.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
and forgive me for saying that.. but neither do you have to be a scholar to know that some political groups have traditionally seen army and its components as their biggest enemy. i'm neither a politician nor an army man. yes, to the best of my knowledge, many armymen like many ordinary pakistanis from all walks of life, have been sympathetic to the taliban cause for political or religious reasons. how one should deal with this kind of extremism is debatable. the people like hamid gul and beig are morons who have not been able to realize that their investment has been lost. however in my opinion you can't root out ideologies by incarcerating or killing everyone who has had any association with the taliban ideology. it doesn't mean that pak army should not act against taliban. but in the long run military both in pakistan and afghanistan will fail if they can not win over the locals. i'm not privy to any inside reports of what's happening on ground, but i'd like to think that army as an institution is not supporting taliban. they might have their reservations about going after each and every 'taliban' or taliban sympathizers. however i'd call it conjecture rather than 'the fact'. americans want to 'get it over with' and don't seem to care much about the consequences as long as their interests are secured. unfortunately, pakistanis, and more importantly afghans, have to live in this region and face the consequences of any policy. trust me i don't want any resurgence of taliban, but neither do i want any military confrontation as long as it can be avoided.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
Every day I feel we're sitting on a time bomb...The Americans will barge right in any day (or night) they want and we'd never be able to do anything about it. We're already fools in the 'terror' game, fooling ourselves that we're in some way in a position to negotiate our survival or well being, while everyone knows inside it's a huge hoax. I worry about what will happen if their GI Joes land on our land and start taking us down...every day it seems the day may be near...
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
true, the govt. won't be able to do much if americans decide to barge in. but americans will probably turn the country into another iraq before they run out of patience and tell us that our security is after all our own responsibility.
much as i would like to think otherwise, i feel that pakistan will eventually have to 'do more'. whether this 'do more' will help defeat the taliban or further fuel violence and militancy is anyone's guess.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
Pakistan has to have the courage to defend its borders, even if any attack on the terrorsits would be in our intrests.
Re: Pakistan's uncanny ability to produce a new arrest ...
amorphous, you are thinking of long term consequences in the region, and maybe that is the reason our intellience is allegedly babysitting these teletubbies err taleban.
But they have to be kidding themselves if they are going to do this at the expense of short term risks.
Both need to be balanced, and producing this guy in 24 hrs show that whatever the case, they are unable to balance/manage the short term and the long term.
US Forces Pursue Taliban into Pakistan
Color me surprised. Who would have expected this?:halo:
(http://www.ftimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=38988&TM=38757.33)
**US Forces Pursue Taliban into Pakistan **
WASHINGTON (AP) - American forces on Afghanistan’s eastern border routinely fire upon and pursue Taliban enemies into Pakistan, defense officials told Congress on Thursday, offering the most detailed description to date of U.S. action in that region.
They said the Taliban threat is greater now than it was a year ago, and they agreed that the Pakistan government can and must do more to get at the large, ungoverned sectors along the remote Pakistan border that are safe havens for Taliban insurgents.
**‘We have all the authorities we need to pursue, either with (artillery) fire or on the ground, across the border,’ **said Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute told the Senate Armed Services Committee. Lute, who is chief operations officer for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said soldiers can respond if there is an imminent threat. But he said they would have to seek the Pakistan government’s permission to go after a munitions factory further inside the Pakistani border.
The discussion came just days after Vice President Dick Cheney met with Pakistan President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, in an effort to urge a more aggressive Pakistani effort to hunt al-Qaida and Taliban fighters who are expected to increase attacks into Afghanistan this spring.
The Pakistani military has been more aggressive in going after al-Qaida than the Taliban, who are more protected by tribal leaders in some of the border regions.
Musharraf has insisted that his forces have done all they can against the extremists, but senators said it’s simply not enough. And they quizzed Lute and undersecretary of defense for policy, Eric S. Edelman, about what more the U.S. can do if Pakistan won’t or cannot do more.
‘I think we really have no alternative but to continue to work with him as best we can to encourage him to do more,’ Edelman said under repeated questioning from Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass. ‘It means he has to face some difficult political choices at home and we have to encourage him to face up to those.’
There have been suggestions that Congress could cut off some aid to Pakistan, but there was no discussion of that Thursday.
Lute, meanwhile, provided a detailed description of when U.S. forces can fire on and pursue insurgents across the border into Pakistan. He said they can respond when faced with a hostile act, or anyone ‘demonstrating hostile intent.’ The final decision is made by the commander at the scene.
He would not say, however, if there are restrictions on how far into the country soldiers can go. He said the decision is based not on distance, but on the immediacy of the threat involved.
‘If just across the border, inside Pakistan, we have surveillance systems that detect a Taliban party setting up a rocket system which is obviously pointed west, into Afghanistan, we do not have to wait for the rockets to be fired. They have demonstrated hostile intent and we can engage them,’ Lute said.
He added that if U.S. forces learned of a munitions factory inside Pakistan, they would have to share that intelligence with the government, and would have to get permission to strike the building. Asked if Pakistan had ever turned down such a request, Lute said he would have to answer that in a closed, classified setting.:halo: