Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Why blame them when Justice Javed took an illegal oath as an acting CJ. They r small fish. Not capable of a stir, much less a storm. I wonder how much worse it would be for Mush if a few more judges from SC had stood up to it.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
wait ..so let me understand, the judges who do resign are hailed...the spin is that oh look at this cheeta, he resigned because he is so upset. and now when its asked that well majority of judges did not resign so the spin is is..oh err really, it would not make a stir.
Javed Iqbal is a man of integrity and would not do anything illegal knowingly from what I know of him. so thats that.
yup, you wonder what would happen if more judges stood up, why didn't they? is it the same reason that majority of judges in the country did not resign?
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
I think you have got to look what is happening across the country and how the lawyers and judges are protesting to see which side they are on. Just to say that because 10 resigned and the rest didn't they don't give two hoots about the issue is not quite right.
Or are we saying that the rest of the judges support Musharrafs illegal decision.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
I think you have got to look what is happening across the country and how the lawyers and judges are protesting to see which side they are on. Just to say that because 10 resigned and the rest didn't they don't give two hoots about the issue is not quite right.
sure, but in that case lets not put these 10 as some sort of role models, which was being done here, and used as an example.. because if people are going to put spin on it, it is just as easy to put counter spin on it. That is what I am showing.
People can also talk about media and demonstrations and say oh the nation is this and the nation is that. Fact remains, the overwhelming majority of the nation..really does not give a damn, otherwise what better time to get on the streets en masse.
Bigger protests take place when W's effigy is burnt and KFCs are torched.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
No one is putting them as role models, but at least they had the courage to stand up for what they believed in. Nothing to be sneezed at especially when you can get a call to go and meet someone in unform and have a 5 dressing down and than put under house arrest because you stand up to the "establishment" and dare question their merry ways. Hats off to these 10 judges.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
No one is putting them as role models, but at least they had the courage to stand up for what they believed in. Nothing to be sneezed at especially when you can get a call to go and meet someone in unform and have a 5 dressing down and than put under house arrest because you stand up to the "establishment" and dare question their merry ways. Hats off to these 10 judges.
do the same 10 judges have an issue with the CJ using his office to get favours for his son.
again CJ gave a reason to people who may be looking for reasons.
and Justice Javed Iqbal who is known as a man of integrity, would not have done what he did had he not seen a reason to. He has nothing to lose.
I say hats off to the judges other than the 10 who resigned for not making a further topi drama of this and staying put
In the end, there are ways to protest. we know the slow, backlogged, crappy justice system in pakistan, hey it took my family 11 years to get renters out of our house when they decided they just wanted to take it over.
so these judges, theeir resignation right now only screwed people of Pakistan. but, hey man...hats off to them.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Did Iqbal have issue with the way the man in the uniform behaved with the CJ. But hey lets slaute the establishment and the man in the uniform who screwed the whole nation and tried to destroy an institution to save his own skin. Why not?
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Not very convincing, Mr President
By Bahzad Alam Khan
KARACHI, March 19: President Gen Pervez Musharraf said on Monday that a state of emergency would not be declared in the country and parliamentary elections would be held on time.
The president’s interview with Kamran Khan was seen as an attempt by the government — 10 days after the country’s most bitter judicial crisis pummelled the ruling establishment — to take the nation into confidence. But the president’s unconvincing answers — though made in a glib manner — found few takers among the close observers of the crisis.
It is ironic that while the president blames “tactical errors” on low-ranking government officials, he does not see that he is wrong to restrain the chief justice from discharging his duties. Many fundamental questions were left unanswered and, more crucially, unasked in the TV interview shown on Monday night.
The president insisted that Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry had not been summoned on March 9 – the day the president sent a reference against him to the Supreme Judicial Council.
“He actually called on me. He had called on me earlier as well. He had told me that he was sending a reference against a high court judge to the SJC. He had also said that a smear campaign had been initiated against him. When he called on me on March 9, I showed him the reference against him. I later called in the prime minister. I and the prime minister went off to say the Friday prayers as Justice Iftikhar read the detailed charge-sheet. I afterwards went to Karachi and the prime minister flew off to Lahore,” said the president, smugly.
Strangely enough, it was not asked why an acting chief justice was being sworn in exactly when the chief justice – who, according to the president, was not detained in the camp office at the Army House – read the detailed charge-sheet against him. It was also not asked on whose orders a police official intercepted the chief justice’s car on its way to the Supreme Court and “escorted” him home.
The president said he was dressed in army uniform because he was at work – “Should I have been in a sports kit?” he wondered – but he was not asked why he had deemed it proper to call in the media and take historic pictures of a chief justice sitting submissively in front of an army general in uniform.
President Musharraf was also not asked why he — despite his new-found openness about the issue — did not ensure that harsh treatment was not meted out to the chief justice and his civil liberties were not curtailed. His attempt to lay the blame entirely at the doorstep of small-time government officials sounds simplistic, if not misleading, because it had become known on March 10 that the chief justice was being held incommunicado.
The president was also not asked under what authority he restrained the chief justice – or, to use the ingenious expression employed by the state minister for information, made the chief justice “non-functional”. Constitutional experts concur that while the president can send a reference against the chief justice to the SJC, he cannot make the country’s top adjudicator “non-functional”.
President Musharraf disclosed that as enraged lawyers and demonstrators fought running battles with well-armed law-enforcement agencies on the days the SJC heard the reference against the chief justice, he looked out from the balcony of the Army House at the Supreme Court and found – hold your breath – not a single demonstrator. The anchorperson meekly suggested that perhaps the balcony did not have the right view, but the president asserted that there had been few protesters on the Constitution Avenue.
The president conceded that the judicial crisis was “mishandled” by him because he had not promptly taken the nation into confidence on all the relevant legal and constitutional issues. But, according to his lexicon, making a chief justice “non-functional” is not mishandling.
President Musharraf also disclosed that senior adviser to the prime minister Sharifuddin Pirzada was the first person to show him the clipping of a news item against the chief justice.
“He advised us on the constitutional and legal aspects of the reference. He has offered a technical excuse on why he cannot represent the state against the chief justice in the SJC. But he is part of the game,” he said, employing the word “game” for the way the chief justice has been suspended.
While the anchorperson did ask a question about the content of the reference – and the president shrugged his shoulders and said it was sub judice – he did not mention lawyer Naeem Bokhari’s letter which is believed to have played a crucial role in the preparation of the charge-sheet against the chief justice.
President Musharraf said Justice Rana Bhagwandas would become acting chief justice as soon as he came back, but then said: “I would say he must come back. If he comes back – and I hope he comes back – he will decide whether he wants to head the SJC or not.” The conditional clause in the answer – “and I hope he comes back” – is likely to fuel speculation about the return of a senior Supreme Court judge whom the government has not been able to contact since March 9.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Did Iqbal have issue with the way the man in the uniform behaved with the CJ. But hey lets slaute the establishment and the man in the uniform who screwed the whole nation and tried to destroy an institution to save his own skin. Why not?
hey duplicuty does not work in one case only.
either we say that regardless of the corruption, the CJ needs to be put on a pedestal because he took teh govt head on.
sure, I will buy that, if..by the same token we say
regardless of all the mishandling and power gathering, Musharraf needs to be put on a pedestal because he saved the cuntry's ass, and delivered solid economic results, not just due to grants after 9/11 but by better economic policies, someone who took on hudood ordinance head on, something that every single govt did not have the balls to address.
and if that is not going to workand musharraf needs to be held responsible for his mishandling and what nots, then teh CJ needs to be held responsible for pimping his office for his idiot son .
and as far as Justice Iqbal goes, he would not have gone along with something if he did not feel that it was necessary, he is not the type of person who can be forced.
and anyways, while we blast justice iqbal for trying to appease the military ruler, all politicians, including bhagoray have been trying to make backdoor deals with the same man, in the past and especially now.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
symk, u justwant to cut and paste or u have a view :)
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
wait ..so let me understand, the judges who do resign are hailed...the spin is that oh look at this cheeta, he resigned because he is so upset. and now when its asked that well majority of judges did not resign so the spin is is..oh err really, it would not make a stir.
Javed Iqbal is a man of integrity and would not do anything illegal knowingly from what I know of him. so thats that.
yup, you wonder what would happen if more judges stood up, why didn't they? is it the same reason that majority of judges in the country did not resign?
So in essence???
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
I m not sure how u say that the economic situation is better.. For just 6 months WTO was implemented in textile industry.. and u could have read the result that our textile exports dropped more than 20%..
In sports Nike has left Pakistan…
Itesallat was not ready to take over PTCL even after paying the 20% deposit.. i have heard the chariman of Itesallat (sorry for the spellings) even said to the prime minister that they keep the 20% money but they r not going to come to Pakistan due to corruption and mishandling by the acting (R) army officer of the PTCL…
Similar reaction was shown by the KESC buyer
Our trade deficiet increased to 13 billion from less than 2 billion in last 7 years. The current govt. has fullfilled this deficiet by selling our best assets like PTCL but how the next govt. will look handle this shortfall?
We were lucky by the turmoil in the bangladesh else the picture would have been far more bleak.
We have not made any new power plants in the last 8 years… we have not done any work to reduce the power cost to the industry… just remember 8 years is a lot of time and no democratic govt. got this much time.
Originally i read the article in Dawn, but seems like i can’t find it now..
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\02\23\story_23-2-2007_pg5_1
I think i can write a lot more on this but don’t have much time.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Xcom_Cheetah nay farmaya
*I m not sure how u say that the economic situation is better.. *
read worldbank, asian bank and other reports, major institutiosn willing to invest in Pakistan. per capita earnings etc etc.
just numbers you know :) facts, figures, that kinda thing
For just 6 months WTO was implemented in textile industry.. and u could have read the result that our textile exports dropped more than 20%..
There are external and internal factors. WTO is not run by Pakistan. We are talking about proper economic policies designed to provide positive impact. external variables will always be there, war, drought, natural disasters, quotas. and they will have their impacts
*In sports Nike has left Pakistan... *
due to the screw up of one company, and not because of the country's economic policy.
Itesallat was not ready to take over PTCL even after paying the 20% deposit.. i have heard the chariman of Itesallat (sorry for the spellings) even said to the prime minister that they keep the 20% money but they r not going to come to Pakistan due to corruption and mishandling by the acting (R) army officer of the PTCL...
sure, people still ahve concerns about corruption and stability in pakistan..
Similar reaction was shown by the KESC buyer
sure, but font forget how much investment was pulled out of teh country let alone what was decided not to be invested in previous era. short term memories are nt good here.
Our trade deficiet increased to 13 billion from less than 2 billion in last 7 years. The current govt. has fullfilled this deficiet by selling our best assets like PTCL but how the next govt. will look handle this shortfall?
as you post 'negative' observations, why do you miss looking at the positive ones. The analysts who assess and rate based on the mix of posituve and negative think that overall it has been very positive. Also lets look at things in relative terms..10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago...look at the exact same set of indicators and your perspective may change.
As I have said..short term memories need to be banished :)
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
hey duplicuty does not work in one case only.
either we say that regardless of the corruption, the CJ needs to be put on a pedestal because he took teh govt head on.
sure, I will buy that, if..by the same token we say
is the govt above the law or something sacred like army?
regardless of all the mishandling and power gathering, Musharraf needs to be put on a pedestal because he saved the cuntry's ass, and delivered solid economic results, not just due to grants after 9/11 but by better economic policies,
yup every dictator in last 50 years had the same notions abt his policies..be it Ayyub or Zia or Mushy the enlightenment champion :)
someone who took on hudood ordinance head on, something that every single govt did not have the balls to address.
please do read the articles by Justice Taqi Usmani regarding the matter of hudood ordinance..one dictator puts it on the other puts it off..its like US backed jihad in afghanista..one general takes loans and even syllabus to establish madrassa system and produce jihadis and the other general takes a u turn..
don;t they have brains of their own?
and anyways, while we blast justice iqbal for trying to appease the military ruler, all politicians, including bhagoray have been trying to make backdoor deals with the same man, in the past and especially now.
they should be screwed as well..but then it also hilites the plite of this nation.. this nation cannot even choose its own leaders.
the so called leaders can only come with the 'asheerwaad' of US or by appeasing the generals. wat a pity
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
Just lemme say one thing… The govt came in 1999.. they had 6 years to prepare for WTO regime.. don’t u think thats enough.? Now after six years we get an oppurtunity either to increase our exports and lower our trade deficiets, by having great policies.. or we can make big claims and do nothing on the ground…
The reality is infront of u… Our textile sector produce 70% of the export… why all of a sudden, when we got the chance to expand our textile export further we see that they have shrunked.? don’t u think it has to do something with wrong policies.? Bangladesh textile exports will increase from our textile exports in a year or so.? care to share why.? if our textile export shrinks by 25% this means our overall export has reduced by more than 15%… do u see it as an economic progress.?
i m in IT sector… i can tell you that we are really expensie just because of govt. policies… there are just 2 demands from the IT sector one is high bandwidth low cost internet access and other is cheap electricity.. and both of these things are most expensive in our region… (PTA also accept this thing and there is a classified document in which they recommended govt. to reduce the cost of the internet because its highest in the region. just for example 256Kb dedicated line goes for above $400/month ).
Very recently the govt. build this IT tower and you know how they are promoting IT, they have simply made its rent highest in the area around Rs 75/sq feet… so no new startup company can even dream of going over there… very impressive policy… thats how they are going to promote the IT with their correct policy when every minister will get a place in this IT tower
Why i mentioned Nike was that its share in our sports export is around 20%.. and its a big pie. and the best thing about it was that it was expensive brand ie. the manufacturers used to get more profit margins from it. Now not even a single expensive brand in textile or sport market is left in pakistan… You can confirm it too.
Pakistan first own car company has closed down its manufacturing plant after just 1 and half yr… i don’t know why and how… but i think if there had been some incentives and good policies from govt. we might have seen some progress in this area… importing different type of luxury cars from abroad is not progress.
Just name the industry which has progressed in this era… How can any industry prosper when all the utility prices have gone up and gone up considerably…
Other day i read an article in which the person said that if u sell your house stuff and then says that u have become rich then its only a folly you are doing with your ownself… You agree or not.? just map it this example on Pakistan and you will realise what i m trying to say…
Lastly I am not saying previous era were better or worse.. i m just saying that these people are not good. we are a nation of 160 million people and honestly speaking its the human resource which is the biggest requirement for progress and we have abundance of it and still if we are failing then its only because we are not having good policies.
and remember its only after somebody leaves we get the whole picture… not while he is still in reign. Just as a side thought think why in last seven years even none of our sports have made us proud… from Hockey world cup, asian games, 2003 world cup , 2007 world cup and remember in 1999 we reached the finals of world and we had a lot better standing in hockey too, we were not loosing to China.. If u think you will realize that there is just one common denominator and that you can identify.
I forgot to tell you abt my view about World Bank and IMF.. just read this wikipedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Perkins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Perkins)
and if u can do me a favor buy this book “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” – i have read the translation of it.. and if you r short of money, open a paypal account and i will contribute in it.. but do read it… Really an eye opener.
Just a little para from it.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
Xcom
when it comes to business there are multiple entities involved. government policies, as well as private sector. incentives and all are all fine and dandy, but if the private companies put out shoddy products or do not follow the vendor policies of their customers, it is the vendors fault no one elses. as far as WTO goes, what did the industry do? govt can only do so much..
I have already read the book, and, while as a contrarian view it is an interesting read, it in dishonest in how it it views the situation. policies are not meant for one country but for the entire region and world, and there are losers and there are wiiners. It is not as lopsided as peopel think. In Pakistan it is a fashion to blame IMF and all, but look at our neighbour..faced the same thing, but govt made the right choices...btw that is what pak govt is doing now. But the difference was that the quality of work output whether in services sector or goods sector is just not up to par. stability is another issue, and when we have idiots burnign KFCs and cars everytimg something ticks them off. Even with that not only are multinationals investing more, but the view has swung to more positive view. even major private observers like Moodys have been positive. While we may be able to knock one or two of the views as biased, but cant do that to everyone.
and I agree the govt is not good, any govt that has crooks like our railways minister has issues. yet it appears to be workign better than the previous corrupt regimes.
as far as IT tower goes, even in US startups start in industrial parks, basements, and garages. the more successful companies local or foriegn occupy the more landmark type of buildings so that says very little to me.
please lets not bring sports in the picture because again short term memory is looking at our sports in the last few years.
I dont get your point of nation of 160 million not succeeding because of lack of good policies. change comes slow even when the polciies are fixed...look at india's example, they did not just bcome what they are overnight.
as I said, we suffer from short term memories and expect instant nirvana and utopia without any effort. nothing is perfect, but one can see improvements and gradual impact.
by all means this govt is not perfect and leaves a lot to be desired, but I really have not seen a regime atlest since i have been looking at pak politics that has done as much as this govt.
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
is the govt above the law or something sacred like army?
the govt seems to be above the law in Pak. people follow personalities and can not see even when its painfully obvious that the leader is corrupt. case in point is benazir and her hanky panky with SGS and the whole surrey palace saga. yet our ppl who cant seem to get out of this WWF type personality worshipping cant seem to see politics beyond personalities. so yes...govt seems to be above the law as it as always been
yup every dictator in last 50 years had the same notions abt his policies..be it Ayyub or Zia or Mushy the enlightenment champion :)
lets not forget ther dictators like Benazir, and how about our civilian martial law administrator. we have had dictators who have gotten into the office via voting. that to me is not real democracy anyways.
please do read the articles by Justice Taqi Usmani regarding the matter of hudood ordinance..one dictator puts it on the other puts it off..its like US backed jihad in afghanista..one general takes loans and even syllabus to establish madrassa system and produce jihadis and the other general takes a u turn.. don;t they have brains of their own?
and what did our civilian leaders do, they did not have the cojones to do anything to tha law. what about the whole stuff with afghanistan and madrissa. nothing..so if they are not going to do anything concrete then why even have them in office. what did benazir do abou hudoos ordinance, she gave interviews about womens rights and what nots but when it came to actions...what did she deliver?
they should be screwed as well..but then it also hilites the plite of this nation.. this nation cannot even choose its own leaders. the so called leaders can only come with the 'asheerwaad' of US or by appeasing the generals. wat a pity
nation deserves its leaders, nation needs to look at its own face in the mirror. we are not the only country in the world that has to deal with international pressures and what nots, but to make that an excuse for everythign that is wrong is ridiculous.
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
CJ’s real crimes and the reason why he became expendable for the the military junta and ruling elite…
“Mentioning specifically certain landmark cases, which instantly raised his stature as the adjudicating authority — enjoyed by nobody in the recent past — he talked about hearing petitions against rising oil and pharmaceutical prices involving the interests of large multinationals, preventing public parks being converted into exclusive (mini)golf clubs or commercial complexes, strictly enforcing building regulations and decreeing the demolition of elitist encroachments on public lands, prohibiting the cutting of forests in the construction of an elitist township known as New Murree in the foothills above Islamabad, instituting inquiries into disappearances, providing relief to rape victims, banning forced marriages and the exchange of girls and women to settle disputes according to local customs.”
Re: Pakistan's top judge is suspended (Merged)
CJ's real crimes and the reason why he became expandable for the the military junta and ruling elite...
He became expandable by eating too many laddoos
Re: Pakistan’s top judge is suspended (Merged)
Musharraf meets legal experts amid protests
Islamabad/Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf is consulting constitutional experts ahead of the swearing in of Rana Bhagwandas as chief justice amid protests demanding the president’s ouster.
Suspended chief justice Iftikhar Chaudhry told a fellow judge that he planned to address bar meetings from next week and continue the fight against his removal, Friday’s medial reports said.
He was quoted as saying that he felt ‘under no pressure to resign’.
Bhagwandas, who has just returned from India, is to be sworn in Saturday at the Supreme Court’s registry in Karachi by Justice Javed Iqbal, appointed to that post when Musharraf suspended Chaudhry March 9.
Media reports said Iqbal would fly to Karachi for the ceremony. Lawyers close to Chaudhry said the Islamabad court would not accept Bhagwandas as head of the Supreme Court.
The government, bracing itself for more protests over the issue, charged the opposition with stoking the fire.
They were trying to ’ settle legal and constitutional issues on the streets and roads rather than in the courts’, Federal Minister for Information and Broadcasting Senator Muhammad Ali Durrani was quoted as saying Friday.
But lawyers, furious over the suspension of Chaudhry and having failed to restore his position, have now turned against Musharraf.
In Peshawar, the All Pakistan Lawyers’ Convention has rejected the government’s dialogue offer and demanded that Musharraf resign and be tried for high treason for subversion of the constitution.
Supreme Court Bar Association president Munir A. Malik presented the resolution that was unanimously passed by thousands of lawyers from across the country, gathered at a convention at the Peshawar High Court Thursday.
**A worried Musharraf conferred with Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, select cabinet members and ‘certain constitutional experts’ at an unscheduled meeting to gauge the intensity of protests by lawyers and political parties across the country, the Daily Times said Friday. **
Musharraf is obviously worried that the corruption amongst the lawyers is more deep rooted than he ever imagined. Look at it they are up in arms all over the country and want to remove him before he gets to review their cases. :hehe: