Pakistanis..Liberals or Conservatives

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
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Do you guys think that Pakistanis (in extension Pakistani culture) is more liberal or conservative compared to our neighboring countries. At least in the US, I have seen Indians and Iranians more progressive culturally, meaning they assimilate more than say Pakistanis. I am not making value judgements here, just calling it based on experiences.

What has your experience been, in the Pakistani diaspora?

(Sorry Pak based guppies, this thread is more about challenges and responses to the Pakistani identity abroad)

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hmm it depends where u r and the circle ur in.

Where i live, theres a variety of pakistani mentality.. some are very conservative and others just the opposite.. and then u have the well balanced as well..

i have a few examples.. but i need to eat first

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hmmm RF, to be honest I don't think you can generalise or make concrete blanket statements about the entire situation. This topic is so abstract and vast, and there are so many variables involved in the equation, that making any comments would be just shooting arrows in the dark imho...

My gut feeling though is that, with a few exceptions, Pakistanis are more conservative, and I like that about us.

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Do you mean politically, or socially, are Pakistanis more liberal or conservative?

And do you mean capital L "Liberal" or small l "liberal", because i know there are Liberals who are conservatives, and Conservatives who are liberals... i guess you are talking about socially, though. Based on political opinions, i think Pakistanis tend to be liberal, but when it comes to social issues - they are conservative.... Here's an example of what i mean - when it comes to politics, Pakistanis by and large TEND to be left of centre, at least based upon what i have seen in North America. When it comes to social issues like abortion or gay rights, then Pakistanis by and large tend to be very conservative.

Is that what you meant ?

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Nadia, I think he is asking liberal in the sense that someone who might embrace values of the land he/she moves to, particularly the values that might not be in line with norms back home (yes, you can say ‘Socially” but that is just one aspect of it).

In terms of your example of politically. It is true for most immigrant groups that they tend to associate with left leaning political parties, as Labor/Democrats/Unionists fight for immigrant rights (which is not always true however).

In my experience, most Pakistanis living outside of Pakistan erect a curtain around them and live in an insular world. Specially the first generation ones. By the 3rd generation, they (in my experience) assimilate fully.

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Sorry guys, for not explaining. I was actually referring to the social aspects.

Some examples:

  • Acceptance of alcohol/drinking. Going to the bar, pub etc.
  • Dating, not just secretly or behind the back, more like introduction of parents etc.
  • Diet: Not worried as much about haram/halal intake etc.
  • Women wearing revealing attire.

Sadz: Of course your correct regarding the circles. I am actually referring to the community at large..Meaning the Pakistani-American, Pakistani-Canadian communities etc.

Irem: Ofcourse I am not generalizing EVERY single Pakistani in the west but rather talking about larger social constructs. Let me elaborate, during my college days I knew plenty of Pakistani kids who dated, but I'd be damn if even one of them would go up to their parents to introduce their Bf/Gf. On the other hand, Indians, Iranians and many others had no problem doing it. Sure Saleem may be a big time player with the ladies on campus, but wait till mummy and daddy stop by, he turns into the biggest momin, catch my drift ;)

Nadia: I am actually referring to the assimilation/adaptation of values. I think your on target regarding the social values, and more.

Madhanee: I think you got the point. However, taking what you said about 3rd generation to be true...lets look at the state of British-Pakistanis (or whatever they call themselves), and compare them to Indian counterparts etc., you will see a difference of night and day. The key difference being a UK-Pakistani girl living with a boyfriend outcasted at best, killed at worst. You dont see the same with the Indians.

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I really do want to have a discussion based on the trends of the community. This isn't a discussion on values or pointing fingers at the good or the bad of the community, but rather my attempt to understand your perspectives on these matters. Some of the things that I have highlighted are ofcourse more "muslim" than just Pakistani and I do realize that not all Pakistanis are Muslims...however so much of our culture is influenced by religion, that I see Christians women in my part of Pakistan dressed more conservatively than many Muslim women.

It is really interesting to see cultures evolve particularly out of Pakistan and since many of us are part of them, I'd like to hear your opinions.

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RF I think there are different types of Pakistanis settled abroad, and you can't discern general trends on the entire diaspora of Pakistanis settled abroad. There are no social constructs as such, even in Pakistan there aren't.

There are those who went from the rural areas as whole families, still maintain joint family systems abroad, then you have the kid who went abroad as an international student in undergrad, the adult who went as a grad student, professionals who went abroad for jobs, families who moved as a whole...etc...

Within these too, you can't discern concrete trends...people come from different family/ethnic backgrounds, have different personalities, go through different experiences abroad, and evolve differently...

Many of the educated Pakistanis abroad seem to be very left-leaning, way more left-leaning than the average Pakistani public or even the educated conservative Pakistani crowd back home. Honestly that always puts me off, its like they've lost their self respect in their mission to be politically correct. In Pakistan, the average Pakistani is more rightist in their political outlook.

Halal / Haram food, again, most Pakistanis abroad I've noticed will buy halal food for their homes, but the second generation kids might eat non-zabeeha if they eat out. Many first generation Pakistanis who went abroad at an early age also eat non-zabeeha from like KFC or Mc D's. But there are exceptions to this too.

Dating...I've seen that many Pakistani parents settled abroad are open to the idea of their kids dating and looking for their own spouses once their kids reach college age. The trend about this back home in the cities is changing as well. There are very conservative parents too who insist on importing spouses for their foreign raised kids from Pakistan.

The example you mentioned abt the guy being a player on campus but turning into a shareef dude in front of his parents, I've seen kids of all types. There are many boys who do what you described, but there are others too who do what their parents would like to do, and many times parents themselves don't strictly mind their boys dating.

Revealing attire...I've seen fob Pakistani girls in mini skirts in the US...and I've seen first generation Pakistani girls wear quite revealing clothes. There are others in hijab and jilbab too. So again, I think there's no real trend. But I think mostly, Pakistani girls dress quite modestly.

To be honest, the one and only thing that I see unites Pakistanis abroad is not their thinking, their views about Islam, not even Pakistani music....but only PAKISTANI FOOD. I don't think you'll ever find a Pakistani anywhere in the world who'll refuse a plate of good Pakistani food.

*Nadi * you're right yaar gay rights is something that Pakistanis as a society are not going to accept for a long long long time. Yet, I've met Pakistanis who as individuals don't have any problem with this concept. They might not consider it for themselves but they don't have a problem with it. There are gay Pakistanis too, in Pakistan and abroad too.

IMHO the way Pakistani society is set up, there is a deep dichotomy between what happens and is acceptable at a societal level and the image of Pakistan, and the day to day realities in people's lives.

For example, you'll be surprised how many women get their babies aborted from seemingly traditional families. But you'll never see a program on PTV condoning abortion.

There's alcohol consumption going on at every level of Pakistani society but people like to keep it hush hush. You'll never see an alcohol ad on TV. I think this is because the Maulvi brigade still holds strong sway on what happens at national level [Thank God for that! Atleast we don't accept and propagate social levels. At a national level we still acknowledge they are wrong.].

There are Maulvi's who drink too. There was a maulvi who used to be called Maulvi Whisky, if you guys recall. He is not alive today so I won't name him.

Dating, Its not exactly the western form of dating that goes on in Pakistan, as in going to movies and restaurants, but pre-marital relationships abound, specially among cousins or neighbors, and parents are very much aware of it too, that their son or daughter like that cousin or that girl/guy in the mohalla.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
The key difference being a UK-Pakistani girl living with a boyfriend outcasted at best, killed at worst.
[/QUOTE]

Is this really true? I don't think so RF. There are many pockets in Pakistani society that wouldn't have a problem with this. Pakistani thinking is really changing. I know of Pakistani girls living abroad in hostels with male flatmates. I know of females living with ghayr mards in villages and small towns in Pakistan.

That's why I've stopped prescribing to the concept of "culture" What is our culture? There's no point in even thinking about this, we might as well be individuals and do what we want. Culture and traditions are just imaginary constructs which we let limit us.

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Raju, I was generalizing. At least in theory, new immigrants are more worried about making a living, first generation is generally (as in generalizing) is between a rock and a hard place (parents still impose strict cultural social expectations on their foreign born kids). The kids of the foreign born kids (or the 2nd generation) is something more attuned to their place of birth, as they get a free ride from their parents (but grandparents can still impose some strict laws, etc. so the 3rd generation (at least in theory) is pretty fully assimilated with the society at large.

Other values such as drinking, dating, eating forbidden food is really not a factor in assimilation. Amish don’t even use electricity. Mormons don’t drink coffee or cafinated drinks. Practicing Jews don’t eat pork or shell fish. So choosing to do these things doesn’t really decide who is assimilated and who is not. My experience is that FOBs as soon as they debark the plane they head to a bar (not all) and there are guys who are born and raised in the US have never set foot in a bar.

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Assimilation is about attitude. No one is holding a gun to someones head to enter a bar or wear or not wear burlap. That is what the western world offers.

I will give you a clear cut example. Desis who only hang out with desis. When they enter a univ, the firs tthing they do is check out the desi club, all their friends are INdian or pakistani. these are are folks that will always have a tough time succeeding in their adopted lands or the lands adopted by their parents. They have a us vs. them mindset which is further fostered at home by the myopia of parents who have one foot back home. In places where there is ghettoization of such populations, i.e. Certain places in UK, we are seeing the datapoints suggest a class of underachievers. Like it or not, Pakistanis kids fro these areas are the poorest of performers in academics because of the lack of assimilation factor.

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I think the most liberal Pakistanis would be considered conservatives in other countries. Imagine what they would think of the conservatives.

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Matsui,,,even thought you are talking thru your armpit, I agree with your analysis. But don’t underestimate the power of Desi cultural clubs/groups at the Unis as they act as a bridge for new students who may not be familiar with their new environment at large. But overall, I am with you, just as you are with me. It calls for a lengthy discussion over a few jrinks. Yaar, these days I am totally taken with work and home (my new job and her travel)…. You should considering coming over to my hood one evening (after 9) so I can take you to Salty Dog, you dog you!

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Thre is nothing wrong to with belonging to the clubs. But your social interactions should not begin and end with the club. BEcause once you leave the univ and get a ob flipping burgers at Mcdonals, there will not be a desi club. Actually I take that back…you might have more of your kind there. :rolleyes:

I am a bit fried myself yaar…trying to get this project off the ground. Having a hard time finding a gray haired dog to allay the concerns of fickle PE firms. Salty Dog sounds good…let’s try for next week. Bitch!!

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

Is this really true? I don't think so RF. There are many pockets in Pakistani society that wouldn't have a problem with this. Pakistani thinking is really changing. I know of Pakistani girls living abroad in hostels with male flatmates. I know of females living with ghayr mards in villages and small towns in Pakistan.

That's why I've stopped prescribing to the concept of "culture" What is our culture? There's no point in even thinking about this, we might as well be individuals and do what we want. Culture and traditions are just imaginary constructs which we let limit us.
[/QUOTE]

Well said Irem, I did read through your earlier post as well. I mean the point that I am trying to get accross here is NOT "oh how we're different" which ofcourse is true on an individual level..And I am not making judgements either. I am talking about what is accepted and not accepted within a larger community.

Example, interracial dating and marriage..I would say that in my part of Ct. is much more acceptable within the Paks..but theres an element of racism too..Countless times have I seen aunties stay quiet when its good old Mohsin dating a white lady but (God forbid) they see Imran and his black who (who happens to Muslim too), and watch them talk about how he could have married a nice Pakistani girl...this is what I SEE on countless occasion..So do you see my point? Pakistanis are marrying and can marry any person they choose, but the point is not their choice but the perceptions of their community.
I'm talking about stuff that Pakistani culture (atleast the majority) does not accept.

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**
Raju, I was generalizing. At least in theory, new immigrants are more worried about making a living, first generation is generally (as in generalizing) is between a rock and a hard place (parents still impose strict cultural social expectations on their foreign born kids). The kids of the foreign born kids (or the 2nd generation) is something more attuned to their place of birth, as they get a free ride from their parents (but grandparents can still impose some strict laws, etc. so the 3rd generation (at least in theory) is pretty fully assimilated with the society at large.**

Don't get me wrong, I am not against generalizing in fact many of my statements are generalizations themselves. I think your correct in your assessment however there are some subtle differences that I want to highlight. Our Indian, Persian counterparts are assimilating faster on the parent generation level. This allows for the first and second generations to assimilate even quicker. For example, they dont need to put on fronts or make adjustements when at home to please their parents. Say dating is fully accepted in a household, the kids are not running around behind their parents backs, instead they are openly introducing their dates.
**
Other values such as drinking, dating, eating forbidden food is really not a factor in assimilation. Amish don’t even use electricity. Mormons don’t drink coffee or cafinated drinks. Practicing Jews don’t eat pork or shell fish. So choosing to do these things doesn’t really decide who is assimilated and who is not. My experience is that FOBs as soon as they debark the plane they head to a bar (not all) and there are guys who are born and raised in the US have never set foot in a bar. **

I beg to disagree. The values I mentioned are definate factors in assimilation. You and I both know that after work many colleagues go out for drinks. Now if a team is going out to drink and the fella who does drink , chooses to go his way, is not viewed as part of a team. Building relationships with bosses and colleagues usually occurs during after hours drink..these relationships come in handy for promotions or networking for other opportunities. Same situations can be applicable for dating/food restrictions.

The Amish, Mormons, and the Jews are fringe communities. Beyond Mormon Utah, Amish Pa and cosmopolitan and jewish east and west coasts..these communities they do not factor in heavily. In fact my fathers Jewish partner mentioned to me that being a Jew is considered an alternative lifestyle in the South!

In American society dating, drinking etc are definately a part of life. If they weren't Prohibition would have been successful and the US would be the largest market for Burkhas.

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**
Assimilation is about attitude. No one is holding a gun to someones head to enter a bar or wear or not wear burlap. That is what the western world offers. **

Yara, no one is even challenging that. I would like your Indian perspective on this: Would you agree that Indian Americans assimilate more than their Pak-American counterparts? I am talking in general terms, not how everyone is different.
**
I will give you a clear cut example. Desis who only hang out with desis. When they enter a univ, the firs tthing they do is check out the desi club, all their friends are INdian or pakistani. these are are folks that will always have a tough time succeeding in their adopted lands or the lands adopted by their parents. They have a us vs. them mindset which is further fostered at home by the myopia of parents who have one foot back home. In places where there is ghettoization of such populations, i.e. Certain places in UK, we are seeing the datapoints suggest a class of underachievers. Like it or not, Pakistanis kids fro these areas are the poorest of performers in academics because of the lack of assimilation factor. **

^
Exactly, Matsui. The UK Asian analysis is facinating on your one point alone. That is what I was trying to say to Madh..If we see 2nd and 3rd gen Brit-Paki and compare him to his Indian counterpart, the difference GENERALLY is huge. Now if we go by Madh's assertion (which although true, is less applicable to Paks), shouldnt performance and assimilation be the same between the two very alike communities?

The riots in Oldham and other cities is a manifestation of this assimilation issue. Ironically UK-Bengalis march lockstep with the Paks on this one.

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Rajesh: You have a point re: after hours bonding. WE live in America not in Saudi Arabia. If a person considers entering a bar bad for his/her karma, then they are taking that risk re: bonding with colleagues. Likewise there are many people who don;t drink but have no problem ordering an iced tea while cavorting with colleagues after hours.

overall though drinking is not an cultural attribute. it is not an American cultural attribute...working hard is. TOmorrow females chaking hands in meetings will be considered a cultural attribute or having women in meetings period.

I have said this before. If half of these stalwarths of hayaa and decorum and religious fatwas that live on this site ever saw what the I Banking ladies of Pakistani origin are capable of, they would commit suicide. But I have a feeling they wold never come across those over achievers because for them the world is a completely different place.

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Re: Pakistanis..Liberals or Conservatives

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Do you guys think that Pakistanis (in extension Pakistani culture) is more liberal or conservative compared to our neighboring countries. At least in the US, I have seen Indians and Iranians more progressive culturally, meaning they assimilate more than say Pakistanis.
[/QUOTE]
Most Pakistanis are conservative (though many don't vote Republican :)) except those who come here and promptly appay say baahir ho jaatay hein. 3rd generation is not "Pakistani" anyway, so they are out of the equation. I see most Pakistanis here who have good solid jobs, educated wife, kids in school, been here 5-15 years are all culturally sophisticated and keep a nice balance between both cultures. Some Pakistani students I see here in the US are either pakka molvis or complete party-guys. Most just lack the proper balance. Either they keep a wall around themselves culturally or totally throw everything in the air and go all crazy.

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**
Rajesh: You have a point re: after hours bonding. WE live in America not in Saudi Arabia. If a person considers entering a bar bad for his/her karma, then they are taking that risk re: bonding with colleagues. Likewise there are many people who don;t drink but have no problem ordering an iced tea while cavorting with colleagues after hours. **

Exactly..but come on yara, if you hate the broadway show your not going to go to watch it for the playbill. Bars are not some old lady investment clubs where iced tea is served, its a place to drink, either your in or your out..
**
overall though drinking is not an cultural attribute. it is not an American cultural attribute...working hard is. TOmorrow females chaking hands in meetings will be considered a cultural attribute or having women in meetings period.
**

Ok so it may not be solely American but i's definately a western one. Like we desis have tea..Chai in the morning, in the evening sometimes during the day. i mean lets face it from college on upwards most happening social events involve alcohol (and you know it :D).
**
I have said this before. If half of these stalwarths of hayaa and decorum and religious fatwas that live on this site ever saw what the I Banking ladies of Pakistani origin are capable of, they would commit suicide. But I have a feeling they wold never come across those over achievers because for them the world is a completely different place. **

No judgements right? This isn't about HOW people think but rather how things really ARE. Let's not even get into ladies of I-Banking considering I married one ;)