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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Most Pakistanis are conservative (though many don't vote Republican :)) except those who come here and promptly appay say baahir ho jaatay hein. 3rd generation is not "Pakistani" anyway, so they are out of the equation. I see most Pakistanis here who have good solid jobs, educated wife, kids in school, been here 5-15 years are all culturally sophisticated and keep a nice balance between both cultures. Some Pakistani students I see here in the US are either pakka molvis or complete party-guys. Most just lack the proper balance. Either they keep a wall around themselves culturally or totally throw everything in the air and go all crazy.
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That would have been my assessment. I think mostly families that have migrated tend to be how you described. An interesting example comes to mind, sinnce the Pakistani summer concerts are coming up: i have never seen a girl (besides on stage) actually bhangra down with the many, many guys who go nuts..I mean it's interesting that no one minds, particularly the families/elderly folks. I know back when I was in school in NYC, I would go to concerts with a few friends whose other friends would join in..The guys would start dancing wherever while the girls wouldnt. Interestingly I would see the same girls partying down at Bhangra Basement that Wednesday night. So what I am trying to say is that there might be extremes on ends but in general Pakistani-Americans would have no problem with guys dancing.
I'd clarify one comment about 3rd generation Pakistanis lest someone from PC-brigade starts another controversy. Third generation can be as Pakistanis as they want, and the point was not to degrade their Pakistani-ness. The point was we should not saddle them with unwanted baggage if they don't want to themselves. If they say "I am Pakistani" - more power to you, dude/tte! :-)
Rajput.. I didn't quite get what you are trying to convey with all the guy-dancing comments. Is there some subliminal message there, that we should get?
That would have been my assessment. I think mostly families that have migrated tend to be how you described. An interesting example comes to mind, since the Pakistani summer concerts are coming up: I have never seen a girl (besides on stage) actually bhangra down with the many, many guys who go nuts..I mean it's interesting that no one minds, particularly the families/elderly folks. I know back when I was in school in NYC, I would go to concerts with a few friends whose other friends would join in..The guys would start dancing wherever while the girls wouldnt. Interestingly I would see the same girls partying down at Bhangra Basement that Wednesday night. So what I am trying to say is that there might be extremes on ends but in general Pakistani-Americans would have no problem with guys dancing.<<<
Raju, have you ever been to any death metal concert? I have never seen any girls dancing there either. The premises that you are starting your argument is flawed, you are looking at a very complex issue purely either from gender relations or partying angle…it is called structural functionalism. It is not a very broad view. The openness and intermingling of sexes went on in primitive societies as well (it goes on in present societies too…we just do it differently and we have a different name for it (ask me about Lahore). To me, those who don’t read the NYTimes cover to cover are not enlightened, be they 6th generation Pakistani-Americans or Mongolians. I believe that assimilation is as hollow a concept as diktat. We all live in our own little world and judge everyone by what our own views on assimilation are. Having a long beard or wearing ancestral attire has not made anyone less or more assimilated. Paradoxical? Innit?
By the way, my favorite Indian Food joint in my neighborhood is owned/operated by an English guy next to his Chippie.
Rajeshwara, Basement Bhangra is on thursdays nt wednesday.
As far as you marrying an I Banker. Trust me when I tell you this, I f you wife doesn;t drink, doest shake hands with the clients, wears ahijab etc. she is probably writing code int he back office, no offence intended…but M&A and Front office capital markets is not where such attributes lie..that is fact. This is coming from over 12 yers of expereince.
Faosal is wrong in what the proper the balance is. There is no such thing as the proper balance. You want ot wear burlap, then get a back office job simple as that, work in Non profit, work in IT go crazy. Don;t think for an instance you can succeed in America when you have issiues shaking hands, intermingling with other sexes, races, religions, and god forbid,going to client dinners where someone orders a wine.
I know many Indians here who have their unique dietary restrictions. If someone thinks Muslims have fussy eating habits you should see a hindu, jain or a jew. Most of them are as picky, if not more. None of that stops them from enjoying life here or assimilating in the culture here. Its more a matter of whats in the mind, rather than superficial thing whether someone eats pork or not, drinks or not or dances or not, just to give a few examples.
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Its more a matter of whats in the mind, rather than superficial thing whether someone eats pork or not, drinks or not or dances or not, just to give a few examples.
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I am afraid Faisal, if you want to live in North America and succeed, you can't very well refuse to go with a client for a drink or eat with him whatever his religion. In GS itself a little while there was a thread whether a true muslim should eat at a non-nuslin's house. Many stated that never in a hindu's house. So Vinod Khosla asks you to drop by his house to discuss the private placement that you are after. You are going to say no because hes is a hindu? Please don't ask me who is Vinod.
Faisal, socializing in North America is a requisite to succeed in business.
Anybody who pretends otherwise has already decided to fail.
You people talk about socialising to succeed as if there's an unwritten rule that if you don't drink beer and go clubbing on the weekend, you're doomed. I have seen many successful Pakistanis who are perfectly assimilated into this society yet at the same time maintain their cultural/religious beliefs. Go to corporate dinners, go to functions, socialise with your colleagues. No one is going to force you to drink, no one is going to force you to dance with anyone, no one is gonna force you to celebrate christmas and no one is going to hold a beard or scarf against you. If they do, then that place is not worth your time. Doesn't say much about your faith (whatever it is) if you give it up to have beer or grab a burger with the boss.
As for students, it's my experience that Indian students take a bit longer to adjust as compared to Pakistanis. They stick to their own cliques, still wear the same tight jeans and the typical painful desi accent. This is NOT a blanket statement, I am sure many exceptions exist, I am just stating my experience. However, Indians tend to be more united as a student body on campus, most Pakistanis groups are busy fighting amongst themselves.
In an International Scenario I have Found Pakistanis to be very liberal, I have quite a few Pakistani friends, and believe you me we are closer than most of my relatives back home!!!!
In Pakistan (On my visit to KHI in 1994) I found Pakistanis to be very liberal.So much so I was given a Hug by the Immigration Officer, saying That hug will go back with me to his Relatives back in India.
Its only on GS that I find people crouched behind their computers to be Conservative.
Its only on GS that I find people crouched behind their computers to be Conservative.
OK NOW BASH ME,
But isnt it the truth????
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I have made this point many times that guppies betray a very self-centred xenophobic attitude that I do not see in hundreds of my Pakistani friends in real life.
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*Originally posted by skhan: *
As for students, it's my experience that Indian students take a bit longer to adjust as compared to Pakistanis. They stick to their own cliques, still wear the same tight jeans and the typical painful desi accent. This is NOT a blanket statement, I am sure many exceptions exist, I am just stating my experience. However, Indians tend to be more united as a student body on campus, most Pakistanis groups are busy fighting amongst themselves.
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Even if all that is true, why are Indians more successful than Pakistanis in the US and UK? Liberal thought!!!!
Even if all that is true, why are Indians more successful than Pakistanis in the US and UK? Liberal thought!!!!
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First of all it is very difficult to prove which nationality is more successful due to a variety of factors, for example Indians outnumber Pakistanis by FAR. But even assuming that what you say is true, I wouldn't be surprised. Like I said I notice that Indian students are more involved in their own world and are therefore more focussed and less distracted. Most Pakistanis, on the other hand, tend to get more involved in the nightlife :) and academics are usually the last thing on their mind.
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*Originally posted by skhan: *
Most Pakistanis, on the other hand, tend to get more involved in the nightlife :) and academics are usually the last thing on their mind.
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Ok So now blame the Indians for that too!!!!!
Also on another post I saw you comment about Indians desi Accent, and I beg you to please tell me Pakistanis dont have a accent problem.
Skkhan you are devoid of any knowledge on htis topic. Indians integrate more with the US and UK cultures adn that is why they do do well. Going to pubs has nothing to do with intellectual acumen. Indian are smarter. (just trying to see if you can refute this).
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*Originally posted by skhan: *
If you call success sitting a cubicle coding all day, I'd say they're very smart and assimilate very easily in to US/UK culture.
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I call success having he highest per capita income of any group in the US. Even whites.
UK, the numbers are even more disparaging for Pakistanis vis-a-vis Indians.
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are the poorest groups in the country. Just two in 10 of these women are active in the job market, compared with seven in 10 black Caribbean and white women.
