Pakistanis blame India for violence

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Its not a surprise to me
finally someone who is lifting up the moraal of Pakistani youth who seem to follow and believe what he is saying BUT no wait legpulling is what we pakistanis are best at and thats what we do day and night.

Those who criticise Z.Hamid never come one with anwser who is the best person to deliver message of hope to Pakistani people and Pakistani youth.

In these dark days Pakistani youth stand alone with corrupt politicians who loot billions of dollars and go abroad, with politicians who buy parlement seat for 13 crore rupees (believe me not a lie).

Z. Hamid does talk about PakistaniAT nothing else i think you should watch his video's without prejudism mate else nothing will enter your skull.

I also know that not everything he lectures about one can take serious but what else can he do. Should he tell the truth? What is the truth? Who knows the truth?

You as well i know the real truth is very very dirty no one wants to hear that.

zindagi se yehi gila hy mujhy
22

Exactly.

The 1000 km porous border is probably being put to good use-

unfortunately, its our own people and handful of foreigners being used to carry out these massacres. Rehman Malik said that in his statement on Tv.

23

They are but the most common arms used by the rest of the world are Russian.

Especially Russian Arms Dealers.

24

The difference of course is that India meets the burden of proof that's placed on it, as an accuser. Looking specifically at the Mumbai attacks, American NSA and Chinese MSS both intercepted communications between the jihadis carrying out the attacks and their handlers in Pakistan. The recent arrest in the US of Dauood Gilani (aka David Headley), further validate the Indian position.

Pakistan never raises this outside of the Pakistani media. No evidence is presented to anyone. Even China no longer placates the Pakistani position. One is led to believe this is for internal Pakistani consumption.

There is growing consensus amongst Indian analysts that Pakistan should do whatever it needs to combat the extremism that's boiling within its borders. If it means blaming India to garner internal support for actions against organizations that were created by the Pakistani state, so be it.

There is also, of course, a fear that Pakistan will be chasing a phantasm. Looking for non-existent Indian culpability means that the terrorists will not be dealt with.

25

Agreed! If we the Paks fail to identify the target, how could we deal with it.

However Indian hand in Pak troubles can never be "NON-EXISTENT". It is there, it is omnipresent.

It is clear that the current day Pakistan is facing two MAIN threats.

--- From arch-enemy Hindu nationalists in India

--- From arch-enemy Islamists in Pak and abroad

These two nutzi groups never accepted the very existence of Pakistan. The idea of vibrant, tolerant, and prosperous Pakistan has been an anathema for both the Hindu nationalists and the Islamists since 1920s.

You pickup RS*es like Guru Golwalker and Islami*es like Mullah Mawdoodi, and they were equally venomous about Jinnah and Pakistan.

Fast forward to 2009, and the same old $hite is playing over and over. Both of these are involved in creating death and destruction in Pak.

And both of them deflect blame to someone else.

This is true for the Jihadi elements in Pak and abroad.
This is true for the RSS elements in India and abroad.

We the Paks must fight both of these evils in order to survive in the long term'

26

Well time after time i have to remind the Indians to look in the mirror and accept the problems they are facing in india and solve it.
If you do not even accept the problems that your country is facing then how will u be able to solve it. I don't want to mention the problems because if you do not know yourself then its worse then i have imagined.

Secondly denying indian involvement in Pakistan its not the solution. Its so easy to finger point to Pakistan everytime there is mishap in india and totally deny any responsibilty when there is prove of indian involvement in Pakistan.

27

No one can deny Hindutvas' involvement in scheming against Pak.

However

We the Paks should be smart enough to realize that we are facing the twin threats of Hindutvas and Islamists.

Denying Islamists' terror in Pakistan is like burying our heads in the sand, or worse!

28

The argument can be made that historically there was quite a bit of animus within the Indian ruling classes for Pakistan. Certainly idiotic utterances by Indira Gandhi added to this. Those days are gone.

The centre in India is no longer in the North. For South Indians, like me, Pakistan is as foreign as Sudan. We have nothing in common. We don't eat the same foods, don't wear the same clothes, don't speak a common language,or have a common prevalent Punjabi culture. If you add to this the younger generation of Indian leaders born after partition, some after 1971 even, Pakistan has never been anything but a sovereign country and a source of terrorism in India.

I can say unequivocally, and speaking for most South Indians, if it were up to me, Pakistan would be a secure, stable, prosperous country. But that is not what we have.

Pakistan, barring speculation by conspiracy theorists, cannot provide a single shred of evidence of Indian sponsored terrorism in Pakistan. As Collen Powell stated in 2001, Pakistan is the global hub of terrorism. As much as Pakistanis want to see an Indian hand in it, it's the result of Pakistan's shortsighted foreign policy.

For sure, India has lots of problems. We have a huge portion of our population in poverty. Most Indians live on less than one dollar a day. Most Indians are illiterate. Our baby girls are being killed because of notions of inferiority and being sold and kidnapped into the sex trade. We have armed political insurgencies because the fruits of our rapid development aren't being shared by our landless and disenfranchised. India has more problems than can me enumerated in an internet message board. The last thing India wants or needs is a country committing acts of terrorism within India's borders.

Development and modernization is moving in India bottom up. Kerala, the southern most state in India, has a literacy rate of 100%. Bangalore, Hyderabad, and Chennai are the epicenters of the Indian revolution.

But the broader context is that India does not have a partner in peace in Pakistan. Pakistani governments and leaders are caught in a perpetual cycle of exile and coup d'état. Successive governments make deals, are exiled, and the next government passes of it's failures as nefarious Indian activity.

29

I hear you.

That may be true to some degree. But your assertion is a bit over simplistic because of many many many reasons. A few of them are listed below:

  1. It is incorrect on your part to say that whatever happens in Pak will have the same impact on South India as Sudan would impact Indian-southies. Perhaps it was figure of speech. Because I doubt you spend the same amount of your precious time on Sudanese forums, as you do over here.

  2. FYI. Indian psyche (based on extensive travel and interaction with both North and South Indians) is less driven by North vs. South, and much more driven by Indian nationalism. Indian nationalism's worst possible form (luckily practiced by smaller percentage of Indians) is the Hindutva driven nationalism.

The first form of Indian nationalism is willing to tolerate Muslims WITHIN India under Hindu control. The second form of Indian nationalism does not tolerate other religions within India.

However both sides of Indian nationalism at its core DOES NOT accept partition of 1947.

They consider Pakistanis as the one who chopped up the sacred Bharat Matha. Nothing could be further from truth, however this POV is part of the Indian belief system as strongly as their believe in God Vishnu.

Parsad bhai,

Constipated Conspiracy theorists exist on both side of the Pak-India border. Blaming one side will not solve the problem.

The main reason for the conspiracy theories to survive is more than simply deflecting the blame.

These theories however false exist because:

  1. Majority of Indians and Pakistani intellectuals DO NOT conduct their own historical analysis of the events in the subcontinent. They instead rely on heresay, yellow journalism, and the sermons in the mosque/temples.

  2. Thus it is safe to say that 99% Indian and Pakistani educated elite's knowledge of past events remains at the level of 12th grade highly biased history lessons.

you say that INdians do not sponsor terrorism in Pak. Perhaps then, your definition of terrorism is based on very narrow strip of time and space. And that would easily take away any shred of sincerity from your analysis.

Modern day India and Pakistan both are the products of history that is at least as old as the history of "Great Game" in the central Asia and Indian ocean.

Even the cold war was simply a manifestation of the same old great game between Ruskies and the West.

In that great game, Indians allied themselves with the commies.
while Pakistan allied itself with the West.

As an agent of commies, Indians supported and still support leftist-nationalist elements against Pakistan.

While Pakistan supported and still supports religious elements against India.

And terror is committed by both leftist-nationalists in Pak and the Islamists in India.

That fact in itself negates your assertion that Indians do not sponsor terror against Pak.

Therefore I urge you (because you seem to be sincere about the cause of peace in the region), to go beyond the tabloid newspapers of the region and develop your independent view of our history and present.

Only then you will be able to accept the wrong doings of India's policy makers, instead of defending them at every cost.

Those epicenters are great. My hats off to them. But all that epicentrism came to India when finally Indians ditched commies and got into the American club.

We in Pakistan have been in the same club for long long time.

Thus the development that Indian south has seen in the last 15 years have been part and parcel of every major city in Pak.

You see a difference with Pak only because I suspect you have never been to major cities of Pak.

While Indians have been lapping up to Americans in the last 15 years, we in Pak have been able to keep the American businesses out during the last 15 years.

However things are bound to improve in the next 10 years.

And then hopefully both the countries will be bhai bhai, in the same American club.

Unfortunately you are repeating the tabloid newspaper statements without even realizing what you are trying to say.

The day Indian leadership and policy makers quit being petty with 10 times smaller cousin aka Pakistan, the things in our region will hopefully turn for the better.

30

Re: Pakistanis blame India for violence

Since he speaks against west and neighbour, whose values and tradition you are so desperate to adopt, it means he is the stupid conspiracy theorist and you are the enlighten moderates intent on saving Paksitan. I don't give a damn about whether you are right about his intentions or not, but he makes me remember that I am supposed to have my own integrity and so, my liberal friends, I will support Zaid Hamid

31

Re: Pakistanis blame India for violence

Zahid Hamid Rocks All the Way!!

32

Funny that so many of the posters on this forum LIVE, BREED, and WORK in the same WEST, and yet the many of these enlightened gurus and guresses encourage a blind anti-Westernism in Pak.

This is naivety at its best and hypocrisy at its worst.

Anti-Westernism was part of the core-belief system of the commies.

Unfortunately, in the post 1979 era, Islamists have adopted the same anti-Westernism.

And just like commies, and Nazis, this blind anti-Westernism will lead to death and destruction in the Muslim countries.

Surely we need our identity and integrity. Who can deny that?
But the identity and integrity can be maintained much more nicely for Paks by us behaving nicely and gently in this global village.

33

He reminds us of the integrity we once had and makes us desire to establish ourselves as an identitiy - an ummah, which is not only his but iqbal's dream and the fundamental ideology of the nation we are primarily associated with

34

Assumtions, presumptions and adopting ideas that are false its so sad that others keep on believing that Muslims hate the West. Muslims dislike the western politics and the unfair behaviour of the western politicians not the west or the people of the west.

I think you need to go back into the history class and learn something about WEster history mate. You are trying say that Nazi's were anti Western? lolz I mean even a 5 year old knows that its totally nonsense.

You can think whatever you want but you should not present that as the truth or history.

35

With due respect sis!

No need to elevate ZH to the level of modern day Messiah.

FYI ZH is master of Gobbledygook and telling cock n bull stories of mythical lost glory of Pakistanis.

Funny that we the paks lap up all this Ummah $hite without ever questioning some of the basic facts such as--

  1. The glory of Muslim heartland Makka and Madina (modern day saudi) has been gone pretty much for 1000 years and it never came back. Saudi is and has been the backwater cesspool of ignorance and Jahiliyya since then. And if all the Arabic knowledge, and all the sacred places could not bring light to that gad-awful place, then how on earth ZH types can tell us lullabys about Ummah Shummah cock n bull?

  2. Modern day Pakistanis were never ever connected to any of the lost Islamists empires or Islamic empires. The latest the Ottomans didn't have anything about Punjab or Mogals or Sindh in their radars. No ambassadors of sort, no active trade. Nothing. NADA zilch.

Modern day Pakistan was at the most connected to the tribal hinterlands of Afghanistan if you have to believe in the Ummah connection. But who wants to follow the basket case Afghanistan these days or even for the past 100 years.

  1. Ottomans the last so called Khilafet developed severe allergy to the Islamism and they promptly ditched it when they realized that Turkey will not and cannot survive if they kept stuck in the Ummah Shummah concept.

However some of the Pakistanis do not want to believe in the reality, and instead remain chained to the false prophets like ZH.

sadly!

Is this true?
36

so the fundamental Hindu Indians are collaborating with Fundamental Islamic Taliban to occupy Pakistan Ha!

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37

First of all its you who condiders Z.Hamid a prophet me, khair whatever makes u happy.

Secondly if i were u i would mind your language and talk normal because swearing is something

all of us are good at. And it only shows your frustration that Z.Hamids show is very popular and

attracts the youth of Pakistan.

Whatever nonsense you said in your post will not convince the youth of Pakistan to listen to him

and understand that Pakistan is a great nation and its full potentials are yet to be utilised.

Its all because of bad governance and leadership that Pakistan is in this situation.

But times change and no one rules forever and no one stays slave forever. You have inferiority

complex my friend. Looking up to others and thinking you are nothing is not good. You should be

proud of yourself and stop complaining and help your nation. Not everything what Z. Hamid says

i agree with but what is the alternative? Give alternative please its very easy to criticise.

38

oh my god... look at these american shifted pakistanis who have nothing to with pak and how proudly they r defending indians..really americans pakistanis r worthless...
there is a massive involment of indians,mossad,cia,afghan intelligence in pakistan..suck on it u zaid hamid kids i mean mercenary and burqaposh

39

Happy?

The post was meant as a response to someone else. But sadly you jump in to defend your messiah.

Pakistanis are a great nation for sure. But Islamists were ALWAYS against the very idea of it.

Who can deny that?

Pakistan came into being thanks to some pretty strong forces and none of them were Saudi mullah types.

  1. Jinnah - A progressive, un-orthodox who didn't even support a beard. He wore three piece suits instead of of some ghotra and toap.

He was educated in British schools and not some mud-hut mudrassah.

But the credit should also be given to some other groups.

A- Non-orthodox progressive Muslims and non-Muslims of Frontier, Sindh, and Punjab.

B- Punjabi-Pashtun Army - without which these Islamists would now be enjoying halwa while begging in Hindu temples. No wonder the same Islamists are killing Pak army officers and jawans.

C- Sindhi-Punjabi - Land owners who worked with the British to setup peaceful provinces that later formed the core of Pakistan.

D- British army. General Wavell should be credited with accepting Jinnah's logic that Pakistan is a viable and peaceful option. Had it not for Wavell and by extension British leadership of the day, Pakistan would not have been allowed to start. If in doubt, look at Plan B discussions in Gen. Wavell's letters.

E-British army general Auchenleck, who had deep respect for the skills of Punjabis and Pashtuns and he was able to convince the British leadership that Pakistan will be a place of un-orthodox Muslims who will make it into a pro-West country.

F-Last but not least- Maharajah Ranjit Singh who for the first time in the history of Indian sub-continent, established a stable and independent state including Punjab, Frontier, and Kashmir. That state and the culture of governance later transfered into an independent country.

Now Go and find a single Big name Mullah who ever supported Pakistan.

Militant Islamism and Pakistan were never compatible, and they never will be. Off course the likes of ZH and the Mullah brigade from Pakistanis settled in UK/US would have us believe otherwise.

So Mr. Happy, either put up (and respond with some concrete evidence) or ****ut up.

Thank you.

40

And to think that these guys blow themselves up for the infidel...