its about time people stop pretending that pakistan is an “islamic” country because its not
and its about time people stop thinking that it should be angelic type country just because it has a majority of muslims…
it is not that either…
pakistan is a muslim country like any other…
and it will be plagued with problems like any other…
their are only two options for the country
implement a system they believe in (an islamic one)
apostasise and then start believing in a system that they implement (democracy)
at the moment pakistan can not progress but not because of maulvis or whatever yall wish to pass the buck to, but because progress requires people stick to one system so if pakistan wants to progress through democracy its majority must become apostates, or if it wants to progress through islam then its rulers must implement what the people believe it…
progress occurs by sticking to one system and one direction…
and it has nothing to do with morality or mannerisms…
There are two muslim countries I can think of which are progressing, Malaysia and Dubai, both of which are very moderate muslim countries with a strong business ethos. Other nations which are making progress are India and China, again it is economy driven like much of the third world.
Musharraf is trying to follow these type of countries unlike that moron Zia ul Haq and it’s a good course IMO. Well done Mushi :k:
Malaysia was just good at putting a good pitch to hide its problems (via Kaula Lampur) in reality no progress has been made
In Dubai,, there is a lot of oil but its given away cheaper then french water
infact what is happening is over valueing the dubai economy, which indidcates that progress is very fragile and can be cut in a moments notice
both malaysia and dubai do not even follow secularist/capitalist principals
whereas india and china follow their principles.... hence India rejected offer to join G8 and rejected co-operation with Britain on many occasion and when asked why.it answered that it wished to become an independant ideological state...
similarly people of china are exteremely patriotic and fully support their government and believe in their government structure,, so when a problem occurs (like SARS) it is solved via working with the government
my point is that both people must believe in one thing and implement that same thing for progress to occur...
And I for one am not willing to apostasize so what i am really saying that for progress to occur the shariah must be implemented...
Why are all the non-Muslim countries progressing then?
We are a great nation. It has not been a collective effort, but still, we are on the road to progress. Maulvis, Mollahs, Jahalat, feudalism, provincialism are just some of the things that are stopping us. Look across the border, a country where the largest IT infrastructure has popped up, is no different from us, but the foriegners arent scared to invest there.
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And I for one am not willing to apostasize so what i am really saying that for progress to occur the shariah must be implemented
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show me one country on the face of this earth that has turly progressed by adopting the so called 'Shariah' as we know it today?
There are inherent flaws with the system commonly known as 'Shariah' .. it's just not practical for this day and age.... there is a reason people have been trying for over a thousand years now but have been miserably unsuccessful in becoming any sorts of power in the global arena.
Pakistan can only progress when it sheds it's inferiority complexes.. starts treating the Arabs like they should be treated.. and gets closer to those ocuntries that are culturually similar and economically and militarily advantageous to it's National interests.
I think its important to understand what common people mean when they say that "they need Shria or Islamic law in the country". Even if just superficial consideration is given to their approach, you will realize that what they are really asking for is simple and plain Justice. Islam and its concept of justice has been in our collective psyche but in this modern era you don’t see the sign of it being implemented. This is the most important reason for people asking for Shria or Islamic law. In absence of clear and transparent justice system its very natural for people to be hooked up to the old notion of justice. So based on that the calls for Sshria are justified.
On the other hand the modernists, rather looking at the basic demand, they are agitated with the word Shria, and don’t want to look at what is really ailing the masses.
I think if you just start implementing the laws, which are already on the books, no new laws or amendments, Pakistan can become an ideal muslim State. Accountability and creation of a majority egalitarian society has been virtues of Islam, and that can only be achieved by providing justice.
So now the question is this thing a priority on our agenda, or our sense of justice would be influenced by internal and recently external factors?
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*Originally posted by Spock: *
Why are all the non-Muslim countries progressing then?
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as i said progress has nothing to do with morality or manarisms ... but it has to do with implementing what you believe and believing what you implement....
MiniMe bhai jaan yeh Justice kissee chiRyaa ka naam naheeN.. it's all about laws and rules and regulations and social reforms.. all have been introduced and tested in some shape or form in various Muslim countries.. from 'chopping hands off thieves' to stoning adulterers in Nigeria to hadood ordinance in Pakistan to the complete dream 'Sharia' state of the Taleban.. what haven't the 'Sharia' lovers not tried so far?
What are the results? We still have a huge list of failed and/or teetering-at-the-brink-of-failure states.
It just doens't work! How much more time do you guys need?
as i said progress has nothing to do with morality or manarisms ... but it has to do with implementing what you believe and believing what you implement....
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It does. Corruption, Fundoism, Feudalism, etc has alot to do with peoples morals and manners.
How do you think george bush won his elections... and which planet are you living on??
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Umar, first of all, dont get personal son.
Secondly, have you ever been to some of the industrialized western countries? Have you seen how people over there work? Stop being so ignorant and look beyond Bush, its not him alone running the country. How do you think they have become the leaders in technology and education? Just go and try to get a driver's license in Pakistan, and do the same thing in the US or UK, and you will find out the difference. Look at our police (the so called Muslim police) who openly takes rishwat, and look at their law enforcement.
Secondly, have you ever been to some of the industrialized western countries? Have you seen how people over there work? Stop being so ignorant and look beyond Bush, its not him alone running the country. How do you think they have become the leaders in technology and education? Just go and try to get a driver's license in Pakistan, and do the same thing in the US or UK, and you will find out the difference. Look at our police (the so called Muslim police) who openly takes rishwat, and look at their law enforcement.
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what do you want me to do? give you a list? the uk police is filled with institutionalised racism... the handuja bros gave millions to try get passports into the country... do you think they are the only ones?... i guess that driving license instructor is payed about 200 times more then a pakistani one.. do you really think problem is rishwat?
how long a list do you need?
man i feel insulted... thats why when i started this thread i said "pakistanis and their high horses"...
Is this why our countries are still third world (or developing countries)? Look at their technological/industrial domination. It does not come through following the mollahs, it comes through dedication and hard work. And yes, Im not talking about problems in the society, we have far problems in our societies than theirs. And yes, we finally have a person who can lead us to the road to progress, and that person is Musharraf. He may be unconstituitional, belongs to the military, but I dont doubt his sincereness to the country.
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*Originally posted by Spock: *
Is this why our countries are still third world (or developing countries)? Look at their technological/industrial domination. It does not come through following the mollahs, it comes through dedication and hard work. And yes, Im not talking about problems in the society, we have far problems in our societies than theirs. And yes, we finally have a person who can lead us to the road to progress, and that person is Musharraf. He may be unconstituitional, belongs to the military, but I dont doubt his sincereness to the country.
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so first sentence is a question? second a statement..... Third another statement without any clear link.....
i started thread about progress and thats a post about justice... and besides america has death by lethal injection (oh no God forbid i should call that barbaric)....
show me one country on the face of this earth that has turly progressed by adopting the so called 'Shariah' as we know it today?
There are inherent flaws with the system commonly known as 'Shariah' .. it's just not practical for this day and age.... there is a reason people have been trying for over a thousand years now but have been miserably unsuccessful in becoming any sorts of power in the global arena.
Pakistan can only progress when it sheds it's inferiority complexes.. starts treating the Arabs like they should be treated.. and gets closer to those ocuntries that are culturually similar and economically and militarily advantageous to it's National interests.
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Show many any one country which has ever implemented true shariah?
The problem is that we are confused nation and are more worried about what outsiders think instead what is really right for us.