Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

@mercenary2k

Arshad, I gave you numerous chances to provide any sort of proof that TTP are being supported by Foreign Agencies.

At first you tried in desperation to throw tangents like OBL, ISI, Abbottabad, and then when you were backed into a corner you finally published some links which shows a retired ex-official going on a conspiracy rant on how here is proof of TTP being backed by foreigners and yet he presented no evidence.

And then you published links from “Rupee News” on how there are links and yet that site is nothing more than a blog site which went on a conspiracy rant instead of publishing any emperical evidence. And then you started on how USA used Sunni Tribes in Iraq and they are doing the same in Pakistan. But you failed totally to realize that the Sunni Tribes fought Al Qaeda.

The TTP and Afghan Taliban are planning joint attacks. If they are being backed from two opposing sides then why aren’t they fighitng and clashing with other instead of conducting joint attacks? Why are US drones taking out so many TTP leaders like Meshud?

Evidence to show TTP being backed by Foreign elements is intercepted wireless communcation between TTP and their handlers, equipment seized in raids on TTP areas, weapons seized from TTP which show foreign markings, etc.

Not rants by ex-officials who claim to have evidence but don’t present, ridicilous news sites like “Rupee News”, tattoos or blurry images which shows uncircumcized penises.

I cannot prove my argument and you cannot disprove my argument, so where does that leave us? It does not mean that my argument is untrue. Your only response to this seems to be to try to paint me as a conspiracy theorist.

I have explained to you how it is ok with you when the US throws allegations against Pakistan, however you don’t ask to see evidence before you will believe it. You seem to be applying double standards.

Ghost insisted that I provide some links, which I have done at his request only although they have no bearing on the argument being advanced however then you state that the links are not good enough for you. I think if the US says itself that it is supporting the TTP then you will believe it.

It does not seem to me that you are here for rational debate but just trying to point scores, however you can. If you have made your mind up about matters already then why do you even bother posting here. If I am a nutcase advancing conspiracy theories then why are you trying so hard to prove me wrong?

Who says the two groups are working together? If they are working together then why are the drones only targetting only opponents of TTP?

Pakistan informed the US of Baitul Mehsud many times but the US did not nothing against him, for years.

Why are the militants from SWAT hiding in Afghanistan and launching their campaign against Pakistan from there?

Why are bases being attacked and aircrafts being damaged in suicide missions involving several militants at a time?

Instead of attacking US forces that are occupying Afghanistan why are they instead attacking Pakistan?

The terrorism in Pakistan has only taken hold since the invasion of Afghanistan by the US. There was no TTP before that.

CIA obviously has agents on the ground that are giving co-ordinates to the drones for missile attacks, so they would be aware of TTP terrorists yet why is the TTP being left intact?

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The evidence will come out 30 years from now, but you have concluded that its fact as of right now.

ISI isnt sharing the evidence. but you are certain the have it!

Another words, you have no evidence currently, but you still believe what you believe despite that. Thats like saying I know for certain the accused is guilty, I dont have any evidence, but there is evidence to prove it, but none of us will ever see it.

Your logic is self defeating here.

The accused in this case has no evidence that it was not guilty. The accused in this case is a prime suspeso there must be reason behind it no? The accused has the motive, it has the ability and it had the opportunity.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Yeah, but we could read between the lines anywhere, concerning anything. People who are prone conspiracy theories, and are paranoid, will see connections everywhere. They see random stories and otherwise unrelated things and assume they are all somehow related.

Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. However a rational person would at least admit that the possibility is very real.

[chacha_Ghalib]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The accused in this case has no evidence that it was not guilty. The accused in this case is a prime suspeso there must be reason behind it no? The accused has the motive, it has the ability and it had the opportunity.

That's brilliant. I'm saving this gem for future generations.

So the accused has to prove he isn't guilty. Great.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The accused in this case has no evidence that it was not guilty. The accused in this case is a prime suspeso there must be reason behind it no? The accused has the motive, it has the ability and it had the opportunity.

If there is no evidence to assume they are innocent, why do you assume they are guilty?

The reason why I believe there is no mass agency instigated conspiracy is that between the two beliefs, the belief that there is and a belief that there isnt a conspiracy, the belief that there isnt is more likely to be true. Its more likely because its the simplest explanation for whats going on. Experience tells us that between two extremes, the simplest explanation is more likely to be true.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The accused in this case has no evidence that it was not guilty. The accused in this case is a prime suspeso there must be reason behind it no? The accused has the motive, it has the ability and it had the opportunity.

First we have to define what the goal of the accused is. What do they intend ultimately to gain. I suspect, the US intends to, in the most simplest of terms, create a situation in which Afghanistan is relatively stable, and can no longer be used as a staging point for attacks on US interests.
Now, does support for the TTP allow it meet those goals? Does destabilizing Pakistan help in meeting those goals?
Because the motives that you believe exist, even as you admit they are conjecture, dont seem to mesh with the intended goals, one cannot conclude those motives to be valid. The US intent cannot be to advance such polices that would endanger its ultimate goal, which is what they would be doing if they adopted such policies and aided such groups that would hinder the achievement of that goal.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. However a rational person would at least admit that the possibility is very real.

Its also possible that Aliens are visiting earth and breeding humans, or all those people claiming to be abducted have some sort of sleep disorder where they are having vivid hallucinations.

What is more likely you think?

Ultimately you can believe what you like. The Americans could be tracking Pakistanis with microchips in their heads.. Who knows!

Bottom line is, there is a danger in these conspiracy theories. Even as the real enemy is knocking at your door, the average person is trying to figure who is the hand behind them. When they no longer know who the enemy is, they become complacent and crimes go unpunished. There is such a thing as learned helplessness. It means when someone is in a situation where they are abused, and they have no escape route, they simply give up and take the abuse. I think by confusing the awam with these ridiculous conspiracies, you create a situations where people no longer have the will to fight back because they dont know who to fight against. Pakistanis need to define the enemy clearly instead of indulging in stupid conspiracies. The enemy is the one spitting in your eye and admitting to it.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

That's brilliant. I'm saving this gem for future generations.

So the accused has to prove he isn't guilty. Great.

What happens in an investigation is that the one that has the motive, the ability and the opportunity, plus a record of past similar crimes is a prime suspect. The suspect will remain a suspect until it is eliminated from the enquiry. Yes that is a gem and should be saved for future generations but please don't twist my words or make it seem like I am from mars.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

If there is no evidence to assume they are innocent, why do you assume they are guilty?

The reason why I believe there is no mass agency instigated conspiracy is that between the two beliefs, the belief that there is and a belief that there isnt a conspiracy, the belief that there isnt is more likely to be true. Its more likely because its the simplest explanation for whats going on. Experience tells us that between two extremes, the simplest explanation is more likely to be true.

Because there is circumstantial evidence against the suspect. The suspect has the motive, ability and opportunity and a record of past behaviour. Who says there is no evidence? There is evidence with ISI but for political reasons they are remaining silent. I personally cannot offer any evidence.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Its also possible that Aliens are visiting earth and breeding humans, or all those people claiming to be abducted have some sort of sleep disorder where they are having vivid hallucinations.

What is more likely you think?

Ultimately you can believe what you like. The Americans could be tracking Pakistanis with microchips in their heads.. Who knows!

Bottom line is, there is a danger in these conspiracy theories. Even as the real enemy is knocking at your door, the average person is trying to figure who is the hand behind them. When they no longer know who the enemy is, they become complacent and crimes go unpunished. There is such a thing as learned helplessness. It means when someone is in a situation where they are abused, and they have no escape route, they simply give up and take the abuse. I think by confusing the awam with these ridiculous conspiracies, you create a situations where people no longer have the will to fight back because they dont know who to fight against. Pakistanis need to define the enemy clearly instead of indulging in stupid conspiracies. The enemy is the one spitting in your eye and admitting to it.

Coming up with wild conspiracy theories to discredit my argument seems like you are clutching at straws.

The people should know that TTP needs to be eliminated. However they should also know who is behind it.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

@arshad5

Coming up with wild conspiracy theories to discredit my argument seems like you are clutching at straws.

The people should know that TTP needs to be eliminated. However they should also know who is behind it.

Im only trying to make you understand that events can be understood through simple explanations aswell. In fact simple explanations are far more likely. You stubbornly refuse to understand that simple explanations are far more likely to be true then absurd and complex conspiracies.

No one is behind the Taliban Arshad, other then your own make believe bogey man. You wont convince anyone (anyonewith half a brain that is) and no one should believe you.

Once again, no one will fight the Taliban if they dont know they are the enemy. You and people like you are the catalyst of your own destruction. Conspiracy theories are only going to confuse people and make them complacent.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Im only trying to make you understand that events can be understood through simple explanations aswell. In fact simple explanations are far more likely. You stubbornly refuse to understand that simple explanations are far more likely to be true then absurd and complex conspiracies.

No one is behind the Taliban Arshad, other then your own make believe bogey man. You wont convince anyone (anyonewith half a brain that is) and no one should believe you.

Once again, no one will fight the Taliban if they dont know they are the enemy. You and people like you are the catalyst of your own destruction. Conspiracy theories are only going to confuse people and make them complacent.

Ok you want to understand events using simple explanations. I got a simple explanation for you. 9/11 attack was carried out by 19 hijackers. They died in the process. End of story. This is the simple explanation. Why did they US invade Afghanistan? Why did the US link the simple explanation with AQ? Why did they US invade Iraq?

No-one is behind TTP. It just conveniently sprung up and started carrying out terrorism in Pakistan sometime after the US invasion of Afghanistan. It started to destabile Pakistan. It managed to just get weapons which are more sophisticated than the ones used by the security services. It just targeted the GCQ, Naval HQ, and important bases where Chinese are based. It just manages to run its vast network without the need of any money. It just manages to have foreign fighters in its ranks. It just happens to have fighters that seem to be trained by elite forces. It just manages to have the right intelligence for its attacks. It just manages to escape to Afghanistan when it is pushed by Pak Army. It just manages to escape drone strikes.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Ok you want to understand events using simple explanations. I got a simple explanation for you. 9/11 attack was carried out by 19 hijackers. They died in the process. End of story. This is the simple explanation. Why did they US invade Afghanistan? Why did the US link the simple explanation with AQ? Why did they US invade Iraq?

No-one is behind TTP. It just conveniently sprung up and started carrying out terrorism in Pakistan sometime after the US invasion of Afghanistan. It started to destabile Pakistan. It managed to just get weapons which are more sophisticated than the ones used by the security services. It just targeted the GCQ, Naval HQ, and important bases where Chinese are based. It just manages to run its vast network without the need of any money. It just manages to have foreign fighters in its ranks. It just happens to have fighters that seem to be trained by elite forces. It just manages to have the right intelligence for its attacks. It just manages to escape to Afghanistan when it is pushed by Pak Army. It just manages to escape drone strikes.

The US invaded Afghanistan because that is where Al Qaeda had based themselves. OBL was in Afghanistan and he was linked to the hijackers as was Al Qaeda. The circumstances of the situation made it impossible for there not to be an invasion of Afghanistan. If it were not for 9/11 they would never have invaded.

Iraq, I dont know exactly. But GWB and Dick Cheney had some long standing grudge. Was a whole host of reasons. Oil is probably not far down the list.

TTP is the by product of 20 years of extremism and jihadi warfare going all the way back to the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. This coupled with Pakistans own slide towards extremism going back to its birth but being accelerated by Zia and given teeth by the Mujahideen movement funded by the CIA and Saudis.

The Taliban were created, to what degree I dont know, by Pakistan, to exert its influence over the country to stave off Indian influence, by creating a Pashtun dominated proxy group with hardline religious views that would inherently be closer to Muslim Pakistan then Hindu India. They didnt just pop up over night. After the invasion the Taliban dispersed, with most retuning to FATA and setting up their own factions, aided perhaps by local terrorist organizations already present in Pak and perhaps partly supported by the state.

The groups in question gained strength because they were greedy for power and started taking it by force. There main threat is the Pakistani state, which also supported the enemy of the Taliban along the main jihadi front in Afghanistan, hence a natural target. If you cant kill your enemy, kill his supporters, hence the Pakistani state became a target.

The Taliban is comprised of people who have been fighting in wars for the past 20 plus years. First the Russians then the Northern Alliance. So they are experienced. These same old fighters train a new generation of fighters with help of money they get through donations, the drug trade, ransom, and god only knows what else. Yes they have money... Also, since the state of Pakistan at the very least facilitated the Talibans rise, its not unreasonable that they would have also trained them in military tactics. Also, Pashtuns are known throughout history as exceptional fighters. If you read up on the wars between the british and the tribal Pashtuns, you would read of the excellent marksmanship of the Pashtun snipers.

I dont know how sophisticated their weapons are, and i doubt you do either. At the end of the day, you dont need a sophisticated weapon you just need one that points and shoots.

That they have such good intelligence and such capability with such limited resources, speaks volumes for how adept they are and how inept the Pakistan security establishment is.

They havent all escaped drones. The head of the TTP, the first Mehsud, he died by drone attack. As have many others. That they havent all died just tells us they are smart enough to know how to avoid them.

Just because YOU dont understand something, doesnt mean there has be a huge conspiracy involved.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The US invaded Afghanistan because that is where Al Qaeda had based themselves. OBL was in Afghanistan and he was linked to the hijackers as was Al Qaeda. The circumstances of the situation made it impossible for there not to be an invasion of Afghanistan. If it were not for 9/11 they would never have invaded.

Iraq, I dont know exactly. But GWB and Dick Cheney had some long standing grudge. Was a whole host of reasons. Oil is probably not far down the list.

TTP is the by product of 20 years of extremism and jihadi warfare going all the way back to the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. This coupled with Pakistans own slide towards extremism going back to its birth but being accelerated by Zia and given teeth by the Mujahideen movement funded by the CIA and Saudis.

The Taliban were created, to what degree I dont know, by Pakistan, to exert its influence over the country to stave off Indian influence, by creating a Pashtun dominated proxy group with hardline religious views that would inherently be closer to Muslim Pakistan then Hindu India. They didnt just pop up over night. After the invasion the Taliban dispersed, with most retuning to FATA and setting up their own factions, aided perhaps by local terrorist organizations already present in Pak and perhaps partly supported by the state.

The groups in question gained strength because they were greedy for power and started taking it by force. There main threat is the Pakistani state, which also supported the enemy of the Taliban along the main jihadi front in Afghanistan, hence a natural target. If you cant kill your enemy, kill his supporters, hence the Pakistani state became a target.

The Taliban is comprised of people who have been fighting in wars for the past 20 plus years. First the Russians then the Northern Alliance. So they are experienced. These same old fighters train a new generation of fighters with help of money they get through donations, the drug trade, ransom, and god only knows what else. Yes they have money... Also, since the state of Pakistan at the very least facilitated the Talibans rise, its not unreasonable that they would have also trained them in military tactics. Also, Pashtuns are known throughout history as exceptional fighters. If you read up on the wars between the british and the tribal Pashtuns, you would read of the excellent marksmanship of the Pashtun snipers.

I dont know how sophisticated their weapons are, and i doubt you do either. At the end of the day, you dont need a sophisticated weapon you just need one that points and shoots.

That they have such good intelligence and such capability with such limited resources, speaks volumes for how adept they are and how inept the Pakistan security establishment is.

They havent all escaped drones. The head of the TTP, the first Mehsud, he died by drone attack. As have many others. That they havent all died just tells us they are smart enough to know how to avoid them.

Just because YOU dont understand something, doesnt mean there has be a huge conspiracy involved.

The US invaded Afghanistan because of OBL? Yet OBL was never ever charged with any offence. Why did they try to link AQ with Iraq? Anyway what happened to the simple explanation approach?

TTP was created to fight India yet is is attacking Pakistani army? It is not attacking India and it is not attacking the US forces. Isn't there a contradiction there? It only materialised after the US invasion of Afghanistan....does that give a clue to its emergence? Didn't Musharaff abandon the Kashmir cause around that time so why the need to fight India?

Yes only the first mehsud died and then after a few years of Pakistanis chasing the US to kill him. When he died he took with him the secrets of the assasination of BB with him, which he had denied. Very convenient to kill him and close the chapter forever.

[mercenary2k]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

I cannot prove my argument and you cannot disprove my argument, so where does that leave us? It does not mean that my argument is untrue. Your only response to this seems to be to try to paint me as a conspiracy theorist.

I have explained to you how it is ok with you when the US throws allegations against Pakistan, however you don't ask to see evidence before you will believe it. You seem to be applying double standards.

Ghost insisted that I provide some links, which I have done at his request only although they have no bearing on the argument being advanced however then you state that the links are not good enough for you. I think if the US says itself that it is supporting the TTP then you will believe it.

It does not seem to me that you are here for rational debate but just trying to point scores, however you can. If you have made your mind up about matters already then why do you even bother posting here. If I am a nutcase advancing conspiracy theories then why are you trying so hard to prove me wrong?

Who says the two groups are working together? If they are working together then why are the drones only targetting only opponents of TTP?

Pakistan informed the US of Baitul Mehsud many times but the US did not nothing against him, for years.

Why are the militants from SWAT hiding in Afghanistan and launching their campaign against Pakistan from there?

Why are bases being attacked and aircrafts being damaged in suicide missions involving several militants at a time?

Instead of attacking US forces that are occupying Afghanistan why are they instead attacking Pakistan?

The terrorism in Pakistan has only taken hold since the invasion of Afghanistan by the US. There was no TTP before that.

CIA obviously has agents on the ground that are giving co-ordinates to the drones for missile attacks, so they would be aware of TTP terrorists yet why is the TTP being left intact?

Of course I disproved your argument. Don't draw a false equivalency.

You stated that USA supports TTP. I countered that US drones took out TTP leaders, TTP conducted joint operations with Afghan Taliban in attacking Pakistani Forces. If these two groups are being supported by polar opposites then they should clash instead of conducting joint operations.

Your links in a sad attempt to add proof that US backing TTP was beyond ridiculous. Rupee News, and ravings of a discredited ex-official, tattoos and uncircumsized penises. That was your proof.

As for your questions.

US drones have taken out plenty of TTP leaders including Meshud.

Militants from SWAT are seeking refuge wherever they can find. US does not have enough forces to hold every inch of Afghanistan.

They changed their strategy, the so called Surge Strategy to focus on populated areas to win hearts and minds and thus gaps generally develop.

TTP is made of Pakistani tribal militants who are bent like their Afghan Taliban comrades to implement Sharia Law in Pakistan and thus they are focused on Pakistan. But TTP has killed CIA agents in Afghanistan, send a car bomber to blow up Times Square, etc.

Yes you are right. Pakistan created the Taliban to wage jihad in Afghanistan and Kashmir. But Pakistan lost control of these groups and these groups started sheltering international terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda. Pakistan was about to be declared a state sponsor of terrorism if it didn't act and clean its territories of these groups and send its military there. The Tribals then created the TTP to overthrow the current government in Pakistan and implement Sharia Law in Pakistan similar to the way Afghan Taliban are trying to do in Afghanistan.

TTP has been devastated. Ever since the Drone strikes picked up steam since 2008, the number of terrorist attacks in Pakistan has decreased. Its like the rule of economics. As Price goes up, Demand Goes down. Similarly, as Drone strikes went up, terrorist attacks in Pakistan went down. Every other day, more TTP goons are being killed.

If there is so much proof that America is supporting TTP, then why doesn't Pakistan present this proof out in the open to embarrass the USA? After all these TTP have killed thousands of Pakistanis.

See the problem with people like you is you think Pakistan is the greatest Islamic State on the Planet. Pakistan is the Vanguard of Islamic Causes and Pakistan is infallable. And thus you act preplexed when extremist Islamic elements like TTP attack Pakistan and you must concont a conspiracy theory to blame others for problems totally created in Pakistan.

The simple fact is this:
Pakistan created the Taliban in 1992 to take over Afghanistan and stabilize the Western Border which had been wracked with war for over 12 years. But Pakistan lost control over the Taliban and the Taliban started harboring foreign terrorists who then planned and executed global terrorist attacks like 9/11. US attacked Afghanistan and the Taliban were driven out of Afghanistan and into Pakistan's Tribal Areas.

Pakistan send its military into the Tribal Areas in May 2004 and the Tribals started fighting the Pakistani Army. In 2007, the Tribals created the umbrella group called the Pakistani Taliban to fight what they called a non-Islamic Government in Pakistan and bring Sharia Law into Pakistan. They started a major terrorist campaign.

So Pakistan created this Frankeinstein monster and now has lost control over it. Instead of accepting blame and doing some soul searching to ractify the problem, the easy and cowardly way is to blame others for the problem that has been clearly Pakistan's in the making.

And not a single country on the planet is buying this absurd nonsense that US and others are supporting the Pakistani Taliban. This theory is so stupid that not once has Pakistan brought it up in any foreign meeting because they know they will get laughed off the stage.

Overall, you have failed totally and utterly to make your case that Foreigners are supporting the TTP. Your evidence is laughable and your logic is ridiculous.

Thank you for this entertaining discussion.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Of course I disproved your argument. Don't draw a false equivalency. *You did? Where? When? Where is the proof? * You stated that USA supports TTP. I countered that US drones took out TTP leaders, TTP conducted joint operations with Afghan Taliban in attacking Pakistani Forces. If these two groups are being supported by polar opposites then they should clash instead of conducting joint operations. *When did they conducted joint operations? Or this a figment of your imagination. The drones are taking out the opponents of TTP and leaving TTP intact. * Your links in a sad attempt to add proof that US backing TTP was beyond ridiculous. Rupee News, and ravings of a discredited ex-official, tattoos and uncircumsized penises. That was your proof. *The links were requested and I just posted them randomly they are not part of my argument. I knew you would shift your argument after I had provided the links as requested,. * As for your questions.

US drones have taken out plenty of TTP leaders including Meshud. *Plenty of leaders? Care to name a few of these nameless plenty of leaders? * Militants from SWAT are seeking refuge wherever they can find. US does not have enough forces to hold every inch of Afghanistan. *After launching of SWAT operations the US if it was sincere would have been ready and waiting for them as they sought escape from SWAT. Can they not fly drones over those areas where TTP is based in Afghanistan and bomb them now. * They changed their strategy, the so called Surge Strategy to focus on populated areas to win hearts and minds and thus gaps generally develop. *You are saying that the US will rule Kabul and the Taleban will rule 90% of Afghanistan. So we will have 13 years of war and deaths and destruction for nothing. You will be leaving Pakistan once again to mop up your mess behind you. And you will blame Pakistan for your own failure as you need a scapegoat. * TTP is made of Pakistani tribal militants who are bent like their Afghan Taliban comrades to implement Sharia Law in Pakistan and thus they are focused on Pakistan. But TTP has killed CIA agents in Afghanistan, send a car bomber to blow up Times Square, etc. *Yes once in a while they make nonsense and false statements just to make it look like they are not supported by the US. * Yes you are right. Pakistan created the Taliban to wage jihad in Afghanistan and Kashmir. But Pakistan lost control of these groups and these groups started sheltering international terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda. Pakistan was about to be declared a state sponsor of terrorism if it didn't act and clean its territories of these groups and send its military there. The Tribals then created the TTP to overthrow the current government in Pakistan and implement Sharia Law in Pakistan similar to the way Afghan Taliban are trying to do in Afghanistan. **I did not say that TTP was formed by Pakistan to fight India, but Med911 made that statement. So you are saying that Pakistan was forced to attack the tribal areas and that provided the US with an excuse to support individuals to form TTP. TTP only became into existence as a result of US war and its actions, but its guns are turned on Pakistan instead of the US.

*TTP has been devastated. Ever since the Drone strikes picked up steam since 2008, the number of terrorist attacks in Pakistan has decreased. Its like the rule of economics. As Price goes up, Demand Goes down. Similarly, as Drone strikes went up, terrorist attacks in Pakistan went down. Every other day, more TTP goons are being killed. **Drones kill opponents of TTP. However no doubt as soon as the US leaves Afghanistan its proxy will die a natural death. * If there is so much proof that America is supporting TTP, then why doesn't Pakistan present this proof out in the open to embarrass the USA? After all these TTP have killed thousands of Pakistanis. *Why don't you ask Zardari? Why was he parachuted into power? To serve the interests of the US. * See the problem with people like you is you think Pakistan is the greatest Islamic State on the Planet. Pakistan is the Vanguard of Islamic Causes and Pakistan is infallable. And thus you act preplexed when extremist Islamic elements like TTP attack Pakistan and you must concont a conspiracy theory to blame others for problems totally created in Pakistan. *I don't think that Pakistan is the greatest Islamic state and to be honest I don't want it to become a great Islamic state. I want it to become a great humanic state. * The simple fact is this: Pakistan created the Taliban in 1992 to take over Afghanistan and stabilize the Western Border which had been wracked with war for over 12 years. But Pakistan lost control over the Taliban and the Taliban started harboring foreign terrorists who then planned and executed global terrorist attacks like 9/11. US attacked Afghanistan and the Taliban were driven out of Afghanistan and into Pakistan's Tribal Areas. **Pakistan alone did not create the Taleban and it had support from other nations. If the Taleban had did what the US wanted of it then Taleban would not have been a problem.

Pakistan send its military into the Tribal Areas in May 2004 and the Tribals started fighting the Pakistani Army. In 2007, the Tribals created the umbrella group called the Pakistani Taliban to fight what they called a non-Islamic Government in Pakistan and bring Sharia Law into Pakistan. They started a major terrorist campaign.ac *The wanted a reaction so it pushed Pakistan to action so that it could use it to get the reaction. If they were as Islamic as you are stating then fighting the US in Afghanistan would have been the obvious choice. * So Pakistan created this Frankeinstein monster and now has lost control over it. Instead of accepting blame and doing some soul searching to ractify the problem, the easy and cowardly way is to blame others for the problem that has been clearly Pakistan's in the making. I am all for eliminating TTP and think that ISI should do more to eliminate them.

*And not a single country on the planet is buying this absurd nonsense that US and others are supporting the Pakistani Taliban. This theory is so stupid that not once has Pakistan brought it up in any foreign meeting because they know they will get laughed off the stage. **Whether the theory is true or false is not judged by whether others agree or disagree with you. * Overall, you have failed totally and utterly to make your case that Foreigners are supporting the TTP. Your evidence is laughable and your logic is ridiculous. *And you have still failed to prove me wrong. * Thank you for this entertaining discussion.

Thank you too.

[mercenary2k]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

To Arshad

Your argument was Foreign Agencies were supporting the TTP. You failed totally to come up with any logical argument of this instead went on rambling on US history, throwing tangent arugments like OBL, ISI, etc. and when push came to shove you put those laughable links. That is the definition of disproving someone’s arugment when they get so desperate to support their viewpoint they throw in sites like “Rupee News”. :rotfl:

They conducted a joint attack last year when they killed 17 Pakistani Soldiers. Ask the mothers of the dead Pakistani soldiers if that is a figment of their imagination.

Here is the site which tracks all the dead terrorist leaders including the numerous Pakistani Taliban commanders that have been killed: The Long War Journal - Senior al Qaeda and Taliban leaders killed in US airstrikes in Pakistan, 2004 - 2011
Trust me, this site is a lot more authentic than “Rupee News”
Here is an article published just on January 3[SUP]rd[/SUP], in which Afghan and Pakistani Taliban are developing a joint strategy for their shared struggle and this is from an established Pakistani Newspaper not some Zionist controlled Newspaper.
Pakistani and Afghan Taliban groups set up council to coordinate attacks - The National

The links were requested because we demanded proof. But since you failed totally to provide any tangible proof intead some amateurish blog and conspiracy sites, what else do you expect? I wanted quality news sites and empirical evidence. You failed on both counts.

Here are some of the key TTP leaders taken out by Drones. This doesn’t list the countless foot soldiers and mid-level commanders who have been taken out.
Badr Mansoor
Mansoor, a Pakistani citizen, served as al Qaeda’s leader in Pakistan and a key link to the Taliban and Pakistani jihadist groups.
Date killed: Feb. 9, 2012
Ibn Amin
A senior al Qaeda and Taliban military commander who led forces in Swat in Pakistan.
Date reported killed: Dec. 17, 2010.
Qari Mohammad Zafar
A leader of the al Qaeda and Taliban-linked Fedayeen-i-Islam wanted by the US for attacking the US Consulate in karachi in 2006
Date killed: February 24, 2010.
Baitullah Mehsud
The overall leader of the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan.
Date killed: August 5, 2009
Khwaz Ali Mehsud
A senior deputy to Baitullah Mehsud.
Date killed: June 23, 2009
No wonder terrorist attacks in Pakistan have gone down. US drones have devastated the TTP and thus reducing their capacity to launch terrorist attacks.

These SWAT militants didn’t run right into SWAT. Are you for real? Do you even read the news? They retreated into North Waziristan and from there expanded their base of operations into the neighbouring regions of Afghanistan after US pulled out some of its troops needed for the Surge.

No, I am saying that US changed strategy and focused on more populated areas. US is not leaving in 2014. They will keep a residual force to keep training the Afghans to kill these Taliban Terrorist Animals.

So USA is killing its own intelligence agents in an attempt to convince Pakistanis that the TTP is an enemy of USA. :rotfl: Oh man, you are too much. Please tell me more.

Pakistan had a choice to make. Either it joins the community of nations in condemning terrorist attacks eminating from its terroitory and do something about it or it gets labelled a state sponsor of terrorism. TTP’s guns are trained on Pakistan because they want to implement a draconian version of Sharia Law. Why is that too hard for you to understand? Pakistan is not this vanguard of Islamic causes and nor is the truest and most purest Islamic nation that ever existed in the history of the world that no extremist Islamic militant will ever think they can improve upon. TTP are hell bent on establishing an extremist Islamic state in Pakistan much like the Afghan Taliban are doing in Afghanistan. If you cannot understand this basic fact then you need serious help.

Drones have devastated the TTP and thus it shows the big drop in terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

I don’t know Zardari and why would I ask him. He was voted in by the people of Pakistan. You live in Pakistan instead of complaining and whining and wasting my time with your ridiculous conspiracy nonsense, why don’t you do something about the political mess in Pakistan.

If you want Pakistan to become this great humanic state, then you must be against the Taliban Terrorists who are burning girls schools, throwing acid, killing innocents, training young kids to be suicide bombers, using Pakistani ground as a base for global terrorist attacks.

The others nations that supported Pakistan was Saudi Arabia and UAE who gave Pakistan money because Taliban are a Sunni state and they were fighting other factions in Afghanistan who were backed by the Iranians.

They are fighting Pakistanis because they don’t believe that the current government in Pakistan is as Islamic as they would like.

I am totally with you here. I hate the Taliban and all extremist. Either it’s the secular extremists like MQM, or religious extremists like Afghan Taliban, Pakistani Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc.

Others didn’t have an opportunity to judge it as it has not been presented to them. This theory that US are supporting the TTP is a Pakistani only theory. It’s too stupid and absurd to be exported anywhere else.

I have proved you wrong more times than I can count.

[Minar_e_moor]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The US invaded Afghanistan because of OBL? Yet OBL was never ever charged with any offence. Why did they try to link AQ with Iraq? Anyway what happened to the simple explanation approach?

TTP was created to fight India yet is is attacking Pakistani army? It is not attacking India and it is not attacking the US forces. Isn't there a contradiction there? It only materialised after the US invasion of Afghanistan....does that give a clue to its emergence? Didn't Musharaff abandon the Kashmir cause around that time so why the need to fight India?

Yes only the first mehsud died and then after a few years of Pakistanis chasing the US to kill him. When he died he took with him the secrets of the assasination of BB with him, which he had denied. Very convenient to kill him and close the chapter forever.

The US invaded Afghanistan because of OBL? Yet OBL was never ever charged with any offence. Why did they try to link AQ with Iraq? Anyway what happened to the simple explanation approach?

TTP was created to fight India yet is is attacking Pakistani army? It is not attacking India and it is not attacking the US forces. Isn't there a contradiction there? It only materialised after the US invasion of Afghanistan....does that give a clue to its emergence? Didn't Musharaff abandon the Kashmir cause around that time so why the need to fight India?

Yes only the first mehsud died and then after a few years of Pakistanis chasing the US to kill him. When he died he took with him the secrets of the assasination of BB with him, which he had denied. Very convenient to kill him and close the chapter forever.

The generous dollop of gems continues!

Yes, Afghanistan was where Taleban was which was giving shelter to OBL and his gang of terrorists called Al Qaeda who mastermided the 9/11 and several prior attacks.

The so called TTP is nothing but the formal incorporation of some of the terror groups nurtured by ISI to falseflag as mujahideen etc. After the WOT started, atleast the overt & official support of these terrorists had to be stopped due atleast partly to threats mounted by USA. Various parts of the military establishment including ISI and the Musharraf regime were at logger heads around how best to continue/not continue support. The terrorists started attacking Pakistani targets as a show of strength, prodded on by supporters inside teh establishment! But due to US pressure and watch, Pak army retaliated against this show of strength - kind of head eating the tail! Next thing you know all hell broke loose! remember neither ISI nor military is so unified - there are fractions

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

@mercenary2k

To Arshad

Your argument was Foreign Agencies were supporting the TTP. You failed totally to come up with any logical argument of this instead went on rambling on US history, throwing tangent arugments like OBL, ISI, etc. and when push came to shove you put those laughable links. That is the definition of disproving someone’s arugment when they get so desperate to support their viewpoint they throw in sites like “Rupee News”. :rotfl:

They conducted a joint attack last year when they killed 17 Pakistani Soldiers. Ask the mothers of the dead Pakistani soldiers if that is a figment of their imagination.

That was an attack by TTP. Show me the proof that was a joint attack.

Here is the site which tracks all the dead terrorist leaders including the numerous Pakistani Taliban commanders that have been killed: The Long War Journal - Senior al Qaeda and Taliban leaders killed in US airstrikes in Pakistan, 2004 - 2011
Trust me, this site is a lot more authentic than “Rupee News”
Here is an article published just on January 3[SUP]rd[/SUP], in which Afghan and Pakistani Taliban are developing a joint strategy for their shared struggle and this is from an established Pakistani Newspaper not some Zionist controlled Newspaper.
Pakistani and Afghan Taliban groups set up council to coordinate attacks - The National

The links were requested because we demanded proof. But since you failed totally to provide any tangible proof intead some amateurish blog and conspiracy sites, what else do you expect? I wanted quality news sites and empirical evidence. You failed on both counts.

Here are some of the key TTP leaders taken out by Drones. This doesn’t list the countless foot soldiers and mid-level commanders who have been taken out.
Badr Mansoor
Mansoor, a Pakistani citizen, served as al Qaeda’s leader in Pakistan and a key link to the Taliban and Pakistani jihadist groups.
Date killed: Feb. 9, 2012
Ibn Amin
A senior al Qaeda and Taliban military commander who led forces in Swat in Pakistan.
Date reported killed: Dec. 17, 2010.
Qari Mohammad Zafar
A leader of the al Qaeda and Taliban-linked Fedayeen-i-Islam wanted by the US for attacking the US Consulate in karachi in 2006
Date killed: February 24, 2010.
Baitullah Mehsud
The overall leader of the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan.
Date killed: August 5, 2009
Khwaz Ali Mehsud
A senior deputy to Baitullah Mehsud.
Date killed: June 23, 2009
No wonder terrorist attacks in Pakistan have gone down. US drones have devastated the TTP and thus reducing their capacity to launch terrorist attacks.

**We are not talking about AQ here and we are not talking about the tribals, we are talking about TTP. Out of close to 2,000 killed the best you can do is name 2 people from TTP. Out of these can you provide a link for the second from a news site? The first one has killed to silence him.
**
These SWAT militants didn’t run right into SWAT. Are you for real? Do you even read the news? They retreated into North Waziristan and from there expanded their base of operations into the neighbouring regions of Afghanistan after US pulled out some of its troops needed for the Surge.

**So you are saying that the US has pulled its troops away from guarding the border. So they don’t feel threatened by the TTP fighting them in Afghanistan. That does explain a few things alright.
**
No, I am saying that US changed strategy and focused on more populated areas. US is not leaving in 2014. They will keep a residual force to keep training the Afghans to kill these Taliban Terrorist Animals.

**No they don’t want to leave the country but the Afghans are forcing them to leave.
**
So USA is killing its own intelligence agents in an attempt to convince Pakistanis that the TTP is an enemy of USA. :rotfl: Oh man, you are too much. Please tell me more.

**TTP is a short term asset that is expendable. As are the mercenaries from Blackwater or whatever it is called.
**
Pakistan had a choice to make. Either it joins the community of nations in condemning terrorist attacks eminating from its terroitory and do something about it or it gets labelled a state sponsor of terrorism. TTP’s guns are trained on Pakistan because they want to implement a draconian version of Sharia Law. Why is that too hard for you to understand? Pakistan is not this vanguard of Islamic causes and nor is the truest and most purest Islamic nation that ever existed in the history of the world that no extremist Islamic militant will ever think they can improve upon. TTP are hell bent on establishing an extremist Islamic state in Pakistan much like the Afghan Taliban are doing in Afghanistan. If you cannot understand this basic fact then you need serious help.

**Funny isn’t it they TTP does not emerge when the Taleban is in control of Afghanistan but only after the invasion of Afghanistan, with the purpose of attacking Pakistan.

**Drones have devastated the TTP and thus it shows the big drop in terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

**Drones have only devastated the opponents of TTP, the best you can do is to name 2 TTP people out of close to 2,000 killed by drones.
**
I don’t know Zardari and why would I ask him. He was voted in by the people of Pakistan. You live in Pakistan instead of complaining and whining and wasting my time with your ridiculous conspiracy nonsense, why don’t you do something about the political mess in Pakistan.

**Zardari is only in Pakistan because of the NRO which was negotiated by the Americans to allow him back into the country. Why did the US want him in Pakistan? To further their agenda. The US does not believe in providing free lunches.
**
If you want Pakistan to become this great humanic state, then you must be against the Taliban Terrorists who are burning girls schools, throwing acid, killing innocents, training young kids to be suicide bombers, using Pakistani ground as a base for global terrorist attacks.

Yes I am against them, but I also against the sponsors of TTP.

The others nations that supported Pakistan was Saudi Arabia and UAE who gave Pakistan money because Taliban are a Sunni state and they were fighting other factions in Afghanistan who were backed by the Iranians.

They are fighting Pakistanis because they don’t believe that the current government in Pakistan is as Islamic as they would like.

LOL current government in Pakistan is not Islamic but government in Afghanistan is Islamic led by a puppet of the US.

I am totally with you here. I hate the Taliban and all extremist. Either it’s the secular extremists like MQM, or religious extremists like Afghan Taliban, Pakistani Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc.

Others didn’t have an opportunity to judge it as it has not been presented to them. This theory that US are supporting the TTP is a Pakistani only theory. It’s too stupid and absurd to be exported anywhere else.

I have proved you wrong more times than I can count.
**No you still have not proved me wrong. If you have proved me wrong then I have also proved you wrong. Show me the proof that the US in not behind TTP? I am still waiting for that proof. All I have is your word for it, which you want to portray as the truth.
**

.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The generous dollop of gems continues!

Yes, Afghanistan was where Taleban was which was giving shelter to OBL and his gang of terrorists called Al Qaeda who mastermided the 9/11 and several prior attacks.

The so called TTP is nothing but the formal incorporation of some of the terror groups nurtured by ISI to falseflag as mujahideen etc. After the WOT started, atleast the overt & official support of these terrorists had to be stopped due atleast partly to threats mounted by USA. Various parts of the military establishment including ISI and the Musharraf regime were at logger heads around how best to continue/not continue support. The terrorists started attacking Pakistani targets as a show of strength, prodded on by supporters inside teh establishment! But due to US pressure and watch, Pak army retaliated against this show of strength - kind of head eating the tail! Next thing you know all hell broke loose! remember neither ISI nor military is so unified - there are fractions

Someone else wanted a simple explanation of things and I obliged by giving him the simple explanation. LOL now you are taking my words out of context and trying to portray them as something else. You guys don't read half the stuff.

If you know everything and have already made up your minds then I wonder why you even bother trying to debate as you only show up your own stupidity. With guys like you around they don't need the tens of thousands working for the CIA. One of you should be able to replace all of them.