Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

[Ghost14]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

@arshad5

I knew that was coming...why am I not surprised? first we don't believe in circumstantial evidence provide us with links. Now that I have provided some links the ground shifts to we don't like the links. Anyway here is another link:

Well yes, authenticity is important because what you're suggesting goes against what we know about the history of the US and the ISI. We know that both supported the Taliban at one point, and that the US has turned on the Taliban. To suggest that America is spending money funding the Taliban, and spending billions more to fight them, not to mention receiving all the bad publicity that drone strikes elicit, seems contradictory.

One of the most frequent complains Pakistanis have about their government is that they're "American lap dogs". Why would America want to destabilize a Pakistan when its government does whatever the US wants? Or rather, when most of its government does what the US wants...

@Ali_Syed

The government or military has not provided any proof for any foreign involvement that's why I won't indulge into this matter. If US is supporting TTP it won't be anything new they have tested the same in Iraq to quell the uprising against them by raising militias who started killing people indiscriminately hence polluting the movement.

This. If there is concrete evidence provided, not just opinion pieces in Pakistan pseudo-blogs, I am willing to believe that someone else is funding the Taliban. It's far more likely that the TTP is receiving funding from Afghanistan, as the Taliban there thrive off the drug trade and extortion. They're pretty much the Afghan mafia.

[Minar_e_moor]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

@arshad5

Lol so the claims of ISI involvement are made by an American born in Washington that was a drugs dealer and an agent for Drugs Enforcement Agency.

I wouldn't even call that evidence. Give me some real evidence.

ISI would have the information about foreign involvement in TTP but for reasons better known to their superiors in the army and in the PPP government they are remaining silent. The reasons seem to be political.

Well, the educated world calls it sufficient evidence. If you want even more specific evidence you need to have some official position that makes you eligible to receive it. Denying ISI involvement even after that is quiet foolish. You really don't expect somebody to come and bring you original tapes do you?

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Well yes, authenticity is important because what you're suggesting goes against what we know about the history of the US and the ISI. We know that both supported the Taliban at one point, and that the US has turned on the Taliban. To suggest that America is spending money funding the Taliban, and spending billions more to fight them, not to mention receiving all the bad publicity that drone strikes elicit, seems contradictory.

One of the most frequent complains Pakistanis have about their government is that they're "American lap dogs". Why would America want to destabilize a Pakistan when its government does whatever the US wants? Or rather, when most of its government does what the US wants...

This. If there is concrete evidence provided, not just opinion pieces in Pakistan pseudo-blogs, I am willing to believe that someone else is funding the Taliban. It's far more likely that the TTP is receiving funding from Afghanistan, as the Taliban there thrive off the drug trade and extortion. They're pretty much the Afghan mafia.

If you want to go by history then the US is only inrterested in winning and getting its way. After using Pakistan in 80's, it had no use for it and imposed sanctions against Pakistan. After 9/11 US threatened to bomb Pakistan into the stone age if it did not help it.

The US is only fighting the Taleban in Afghanistan wheras it is sponsoring the Taleban in Pakistan which is just a militia using the Taleban name to confuse people. These are two different groups. One is fighting to liberate its country and the other is trying to undermine the Pakistani state. The Taleban in Afghanistan have been friendly towards Pakistan and even offered to help protect Pakistan against aggression by India when India mounted it troops near the Pakistan border for several months.

The US wants to win the war in Afghanistan and has created a militia organisation that is trying to recruit people to fight against Pakistan, it is trying to create a new front to relieve the pressure on it in Afghanistan.

The US has a history of sponsoring militas to achieve its objectives. It imposed a puppet government in Pakistan which has allowed the US to attack Pakistan with impunity through drone strikes and through its proxy TTP. TTP's activities involve attacking Naval base in Karachi, Air Force base in Kamra, Army headquarters, Naval headquarters, blowing up girls schools, killing shias and attacking army checkposts.

The US has agents on the ground in Waziristan that plant devices close to places to be bombed by the drones. Thousands have been killed by the drones yet TTP is based in the same area is able to carry out its activities with impunity.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Well, the educated world calls it sufficient evidence. If you want even more specific evidence you need to have some official position that makes you eligible to receive it. Denying ISI involvement even after that is quiet foolish. You really don't expect somebody to come and bring you original tapes do you?

If the educated world calls that sufficient evidence then we in Pakistan need to get educated as well so that we can start blaming others just on suspicion.

[Ghost14]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

But that's my point: if the US already has a puppet government, why would it waste time and money to attack it's own puppet? It's far more likely that people who have brutalized women and minorities in Afghanistan are now expanding into Pakistan.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

But that's my point: if the US already has a puppet government, why would it waste time and money to attack it's own puppet? It's far more likely that people who have brutalized women and minorities in Afghanistan are now expanding into Pakistan.

It is not attacking its puppet it is attacking the Pakstani state. From a military point of view one reason could be to open a second front and to divert the recruits from attacking Afghanistan into attacking Pakistan instead. Another reason could be to pressurise the Pakistani state, another reason could be to get freedom of movement in FATA, another reason could be to try to discredit the Taleban movement in Afghanistan. Another reason could be to try to get the Pakistani military to improve the defence of its bases where sensitive weapons maybe deployed.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

@arshad5

It is not attacking its puppet it is attacking the Pakstani state. From a military point of view one reason could be to open a second front and to divert the recruits from attacking Afghanistan into attacking Pakistan instead. Another reason could be to pressurise the Pakistani state, another reason could be to get freedom of movement in FATA, another reason could be to try to discredit the Taleban movement in Afghanistan. Another reason could be to try to get the Pakistani military to improve the defence of its bases where sensitive weapons maybe deployed.

Im confused. Your saying that the Pakistani Taliban are controlled by foreign agencies, assuming your referring to America, to pressure the Pakistani govt, or Pakistan Army to attack the same Taliban which the US is controlling?

Why would the US need freedom of movement in FATA when the US according to you is controlling FATA through its proxies (the TTP)?

Why would they need to pressurize the Pakistani state when the already control the TTP?

Why would they need to pressure the Pakistanis to improve their own security? Are you saying the Pakistanis are complacent in defending sensitive hardware? Or are you suggesting the Pakistani DONT want to protect their own sensitive weapons against terrorists?

And plus, your saying perhaps the US wants Pakistan to better defend itself against an enemy that is controlled by the US it self. So basically, the US wants to force the Pakistanis to better defend themselves against those acting through clandestine means, as secret proxies of the US to assert US influence?

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

What is unreasonable about my statements? Just to give you one example didn't Libya at one stage support the IRA? Didn't a foreign agency support a terrorist organisation for some time for their own motives and had links with them for a lot longer ?

Am I a conspiracy nut for telling you the above as well which you will not believe.

Well, one reason we know off and everyone understands to be true, the facts that certain groups have supported certain other groups (read terrorist groups) is because they were caught in the act. Grand conspiracies are generally very difficult if not impossible to keep secret.
If the US were supporting the TTP, they would have been caught red handed. The reason the Pak Army and Pak govt arent making an issue of it, is because they know the facts dont support this conspiracy.

In the case of the TTP, the conspiracy seems to convoluted and and so contradictory, that to believe it would mean making all sorts of assumptions based on very flimsy evidence. And as a general rule, when you have to bend over backwards to make sense of everything, and make it all fit together in whatever haphazard way you can, then its probably not true.

You proved it yourself with all those "maybe this an maybe that" questioning. When you have to pepper your statements with endless maybe's, your probably saying you dont have any information and its all conjecture.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Paper trails are always found in all scandals around the around the globe, true or false?

Ofcourse. In ten years, someone among the Taliban would have cracked and spilt the beans.

That isnt to say the CIA or whoever havent tried to infiltrate the Taliban. In fact, the headless corpses with notes claiming they are American spies is probably an accurate description.

But to say the Taliban are funded by foreign agencies exclusively to advance a foreign agency agenda is ridiculous. As if all this religious extremist nonsense is just an elaborate ploy, all the talk about spreading Shriat by force, beheading soldiers and killing politicians, its all an act to fool the Pakistani awam into thinking the Taliban are nothing more then local thugs.

Well people like Arshad saab arent fooled. He knows the Taliban are just a rouse and the real enemy is a kufar govt that is secretly funding them!
Just wait for the conclusive evidence which is going to inevitably reveal itself any time now.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Ofcourse. In ten years, someone among the Taliban would have cracked and spilt the beans.

That isnt to say the CIA or whoever havent tried to infiltrate the Taliban. In fact, the headless corpses with notes claiming they are American spies is probably an accurate description.

But to say the Taliban are funded by foreign agencies exclusively to advance a foreign agency agenda is ridiculous. As if all this religious extremist nonsense is just an elaborate ploy, all the talk about spreading Shriat by force, beheading soldiers and killing politicians, its all an act to fool the Pakistani awam into thinking the Taliban are nothing more then local thugs.

Well people like Arshad saab arent fooled. He knows the Taliban are just a rouse and the real enemy is a kufar govt that is secretly funding them! Just wait for the conclusive evidence which is going to inevitably reveal itself any time now.

First of all very few if any will actually know about the sponsors of their movement. Even then sponsor would use a cover for its support so that its not directly linked.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Well, one reason we know off and everyone understands to be true, the facts that certain groups have supported certain other groups (read terrorist groups) is because they were caught in the act. Grand conspiracies are generally very difficult if not impossible to keep secret. If the US were supporting the TTP, they would have been caught red handed. The reason the Pak Army and Pak govt arent making an issue of it, is because they know the facts dont support this conspiracy.

In the case of the TTP, the conspiracy seems to convoluted and and so contradictory, that to believe it would mean making all sorts of assumptions based on very flimsy evidence. And as a general rule, when you have to bend over backwards to make sense of everything, and make it all fit together in whatever haphazard way you can, then its probably not true.

You proved it yourself with all those "maybe this an maybe that" questioning. When you have to pepper your statements with endless maybe's, your probably saying you dont have any information and its all conjecture.

The conjecture is limited to the motivates behind the support. It could be one or all or more reasons. Only the agencies can decide what the motivating factors will be. There is no conjecture that TTP is sponsored by foreign agencies.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Im confused. Your saying that the Pakistani Taliban are controlled by foreign agencies, assuming your referring to America, to pressure the Pakistani govt, or Pakistan Army to attack the same Taliban which the US is controlling?

Why would the US need freedom of movement in FATA when the US according to you is controlling FATA through its proxies (the TTP)?

Why would they need to pressurize the Pakistani state when the already control the TTP?

Why would they need to pressure the Pakistanis to improve their own security? Are you saying the Pakistanis are complacent in defending sensitive hardware? Or are you suggesting the Pakistani DONT want to protect their own sensitive weapons against terrorists?

And plus, your saying perhaps the US wants Pakistan to better defend itself against an enemy that is controlled by the US it self. So basically, the US wants to force the Pakistanis to better defend themselves against those acting through clandestine means, as secret proxies of the US to assert US influence?

There would not be freedom of movement if TTP was not present in the area, or it would be very limited or it would be reliant on ISI.

The US has no loyalty to TTP, it is being used just to help them achieve their objectives. They can be eliminated..the US does not care. They would rather have them dying in Pakistan than to have them fighting against them via Afghan Taleban in Afghanistan.

There are apprehensions that large organised militants group could try to get the hardware, there is always room for improvement. However the improvement can only take place when you feel the need for extra security otherwise you can become fairly complacent.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

The conjecture is limited to the motivates behind the support. It could be one or all or more reasons. Only the agencies can decide what the motivating factors will be. There is no conjecture that TTP is sponsored by foreign agencies.

For something to be true, or likely to be true, we shouldn't have to conjecture so much about the motives.

Your assuming your conclusion is accurate despite a lack of established motive, and despite the lack of direct evidence.

If there is no evidence, and there is no established motive, then how likely is your conclusion to be fact?

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

First of all very few if any will actually know about the sponsors of their movement. Even then sponsor would use a cover for its support so that its not directly linked.

If you dont know who they are, and you dont have any direct evidence they even are involved, why are you certain they actualy exist?

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

For something to be true, or likely to be true, we shouldn't have to conjecture so much about the motives.

Your assuming your conclusion is accurate despite a lack of established motive, and despite the lack of direct evidence.

If there is no evidence, and there is no established motive, then how likely is your conclusion to be fact?

Sometimes I feel like I am trying to have a conversation with a brick wall.

Since I am not sitting at Langley and making the decisions, a lot of it will be conjecture at this stage until documents become declassified 30 years down the road or so. Conjecture does not mean that the proposition is false.

I have given you some of the likely motives already.

Direct evidence is something that only ISI would have and they are not sharing it with me.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

There would not be freedom of movement if TTP was not present in the area, or it would be very limited or it would be reliant on ISI.

The US has no loyalty to TTP, it is being used just to help them achieve their objectives. They can be eliminated..the US does not care. They would rather have them dying in Pakistan than to have them fighting against them via Afghan Taleban in Afghanistan.

There are apprehensions that large organised militants group could try to get the hardware, there is always room for improvement. However the improvement can only take place when you feel the need for extra security otherwise you can become fairly complacent.

Again, to much maybe this and maybe that. To much conjecture to ever draw any conclusion. You also assume to understand the motives of the US without any real direct insight. You believe they are a certain way, but how do you know your reading of American motives isn't being influenced by your own bias? For example, Pakistanis judge events Baluchistan very differently from most Balochis. both have their own bias.

Generally speaking, the more complicated and convoluted the motives become, the less accurate the conclusion. the simplest rational is usually the most accurate.

[arshad5]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

If you dont know who they are, and you dont have any direct evidence they even are involved, why are you certain they actualy exist?

Circumstantial evidence. Or in other words reading between the lines. Or "Deduction" my dear Watson.

[mercenary2k]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Arshad, I gave you numerous chances to provide any sort of proof that TTP are being supported by Foreign Agencies.

At first you tried in desperation to throw tangents like OBL, ISI, Abbottabad, and then when you were backed into a corner you finally published some links which shows a retired ex-official going on a conspiracy rant on how here is proof of TTP being backed by foreigners and yet he presented no evidence.

And then you published links from “Rupee News” on how there are links and yet that site is nothing more than a blog site which went on a conspiracy rant instead of publishing any emperical evidence. And then you started on how USA used Sunni Tribes in Iraq and they are doing the same in Pakistan. But you failed totally to realize that the Sunni Tribes fought Al Qaeda.

The TTP and Afghan Taliban are planning joint attacks. If they are being backed from two opposing sides then why aren’t they fighitng and clashing with other instead of conducting joint attacks? Why are US drones taking out so many TTP leaders like Meshud?

Evidence to show TTP being backed by Foreign elements is intercepted wireless communcation between TTP and their handlers, equipment seized in raids on TTP areas, weapons seized from TTP which show foreign markings, etc.

Not rants by ex-officials who claim to have evidence but don’t present, ridicilous news sites like “Rupee News”, tattoos or blurry images which shows uncircumcized penises.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Sometimes I feel like I am trying to have a conversation with a brick wall.

Since I am not sitting at Langley and making the decisions, a lot of it will be conjecture at this stage until documents become declassified 30 years down the road or so. Conjecture does not mean that the proposition is false.

I have given you some of the likely motives already.

Direct evidence is something that only ISI would have and they are not sharing it with me.

The evidence will come out 30 years from now, but you have concluded that its fact as of right now.

ISI isnt sharing the evidence. but you are certain the have it!

Another words, you have no evidence currently, but you still believe what you believe despite that. Thats like saying I know for certain the accused is guilty, I dont have any evidence, but there is evidence to prove it, but none of us will ever see it.

Your logic is self defeating here.

[Med911]

Re: Pakistani Taleban: Run by foreign agencies

Circumstantial evidence. Or in other words reading between the lines. Or "Deduction" my dear Watson.

Yeah, but we could read between the lines anywhere, concerning anything. People who are prone conspiracy theories, and are paranoid, will see connections everywhere. They see random stories and otherwise unrelated things and assume they are all somehow related.