Pakistani Respected Army - Point To Ponder

I was grown up in Sialkot City. Presence of Sialkot Cantt had an inherited influence with the result like majority I love and respect army. I belong to that generation in the Army is whose brain all the time. I do remember when I was studying in Islamia College there was only one Brigadier in Sialkot and his son used to come in a black colour army car. It was some cheverlot type car. I do not have much knowledge about vehicles or makes. We the masses used to see the car with much surprise, appreciation and a little fear. The Brigadier’s son though son of a very big gun as per those old times of early 1960s but really was a very nice one who ever tried to show that he was son a mighty but despite that sons of ordinary masses like me keep to stay at distance out of our inferiority or military fear I do not know. When in 1966 I started as a clerk in the civil fortunately I was attached with a uniformed person. My experience was military officers working in civil were more better than civilians in many matters. I have till today never accepted that Pakistan army was ever defeated by Indian army. It is my firm belief morally and principally it is victory of Pakistani army that Indian forces could not in traditional terms defect Pakistani army and a small army stood and faced a six time more heavy weight wrestler. The lifafa columnists who today speak eg Pakistan army’s so called defeat in Kargil forget Bill Clinton’s TV interview in answer to a question saying “yes, we asked Nawaz Shaif to go back from the captured positions”. Why he asked and from which position he asked to go back? Naturally from those advanced position which Pakistani fighters or Pakistani personnel have “captured or conquered” from Indian army. I myself have read living abroad a headline in a foreign newspaper Indian Defence Minister saying “Pakistanis are still in some places and we can not push them back”.

In 1968-70 living in Karachi with my own eyes I often saw in Liaquatabad area (then known as Laloo Khait from where movement against General Ayub started) people throwing stones on buses, putting fire on tyres, stopping the traffic but as soon as army came there came a remote controlled peace and same stone throwing people turned towards raising slogans praising and entertaining army personnel out of their love and respect. There was such a fear of army no one during those days could think of rioting, throwing a stone to an army jeep. I despite having special departmental passes permitting to pass through cardoned or curfew areas in 1967-69 had no courage to pass through an army vehicle on the road.

I am not highly educated. I am an average citizen from lower middle class due to recent economic development of the country soon am near entering to the lower poverty class. I have no political affliation as my politics is my livelihood. Whatever our todays so called liberals or intellectuals may say the fact is from the very day of birth of our beloved Pakistan it is the aim of some to de-establish this country and make a Hindustan under whatever the new the label or brand it may be. Pakistan which to India was expected to get vanish in a six month or a year by the Grace of God developed speedily. These unknown forces realised that unless there is army and judiciary in Pakistan, the goal cannot be achieved as such under a deep planning of unknown-practical-players in 1971 Bangladesh was created to defame Pakistan army. Under this planning after 1971 so-called-arranged defeat every effort was made to defame Army. I remember during about 1973 there was a devastating flood in Punjab. Shahdra Town came under water. People were rescued by operation. On popular “Deehati Bhaioun Kaliay” programme of Radio Pakistan Lahore I heard an interview of an illiterate villager that “army” rescued us, I had to leave all my belongings but by “paying” to “armymen” I could get my buffalow escaped through rescue boats. The fact was army was not at all used in the operation. It was Bhutto’s created Special Security Force whose uniform was just like military which handled this operation. Villager was illiterate not able to distinguish between special force or army. This SSF was in itself created to wekan the Army. For this villager every khakhi type uniform wearer was a “Fouji”. Thus under a deep planning bad name was being given to army as in case of above villager’s example who always would keep in mind a Fauji Bhai took rishwat. To let down other organ namely judiciary Bhutto created the first ever example in the world by arresting from within the court the civil judge Sanghar. Attack on Supreme Court, humaliation of Justice Sajjad etc during Nawaz Sharif etc all are series of same cotinued game to defame army and judiciary.

PART II

part-ii

I cannot for rest of my life forget the photo appearing in the press during 1977 agitation against Bhutto when on Burns Road Karachi near S.M. Law collage a young girl from amongst the demonstrators opened neck of her shirt holding apart with her two hands yelling on the young army Captain “shoot me here”. On the background was an army jeep, young captain holding his gun. He very wisely did not fire. I wept seeing the photo. This was a dangerous photo showing fear receding. In short what today is happening namely; whenever now army comes out in aid of civil administration young people do not care much, stones on para military jeeps have reportedly been thrown and there are unconfirmed reports that one or two uniformed personnel on patrol some years back disappeared etc. A sentence of an MQM leadership was an eye opener sometime in 1997-2000 that we have achieved something or not but we have lessed the fear of army from the minds of people which is an achievement!!. In 1960s, 1980s and even till early 1990 people still generally used to offer tea, juice to army jawans standing on any emergency duties on roads, makets but today same practice hardly is seen today in cities. It may still be in villages or small towns but certainly not in cities today. Why this good habit has disappeared ?

Use of army personnel for checking electric meters, recovery of alleged tax evading docuemnts from DAWN, etc all are the things of same deep planned play that bring military people as much possible in the civil affairs, keep stealing electricity so the bad name should go to army, prepare such office summaries that army people may be allured to get housing plots on sports lands so young sports lovers may feel hate etc all are the different stages and steps of same game.

Paramilitary/scouts entered into South Wazirastan for flushing out alleged terrorists. How much successful was this operation needs no comments. Press reports are there. Whether terrorists have been captured or not, operation is successful or not, is not a serious point. The serious point is since independence this area had been like Great Chinese Wall a natural defence boundry for Pakistan. These people always respected army. They never had thought of raising gun against Pakistan army in which many of their own fathers sons were employed. Today they have for the first time raised their guns killing 13 army personnel. What is more serious in all this is that the fear of army has gone and vanished and that is the most serious point to ponder. No tribal Jirga can now restore what has been lost there. Pakistan’s writ in the area is a praising worth thing, what government did to show its writ no patriotic Pakistani can disagree with the government but there were some other better ways to do which those unknown planners did not want. It is same as Dr. Qadeer and others could had been with respect silently called to offices for de-friefings instead of police to take them for debriefing which same unknown force did not perhaps wanted to because if things could had done the otherway they such a rage in newspapers media could not had been raised.

It is open world topic today that US intelligence (deliberately or otherwise?) failed in giving proper intelligence data about Afghaninstan and Iraq. No weapons of mass destructions could be found in Iraq which was the base for attacking. Credibility of US intelligence services is a top of intrnational newspapers today. In Wazirastan Pakistan paramilitary forces operated on the basis of intelligence shared by US about presence of alleged terrorists. Paramilitary forces counterfaced tribal people who raised their guns against Pakistani paramilitary forces. Now reading some of the comments suggest alleged top terrorists there were either not at all there or escaped. Now point to ponder is was it another step of the same strategy to reduce fear of Pakistan army that wrong intelligence was provided to Pakistan under a planning that Pakistani paramilitary forces may interven so tirbals raise their guns first time in history against Pakistanis which may ultimately create for ever hate amongst the young tribals?. According to Corps Commander the foreign fighers had assult rifles, aircraft guns, flame-throwers etc. The alleged foreign fighters are since long encircled from all sides; from Afghanistan side by US troops from Pakistan side by army so from where this “heavy” ammunition is coming to these encircled fighters? Just routine guns or bullets can get escaped through these barriers but not heavy machine guns etc. So who is supply these heavy items to fighters should be a serious point. Can it not be the same who gave birth to these fighters during russian occupation of Afghanistan and same is playing double game with Pakistan. As I said I am not much educated hence my inability to express my point but intellgent readers can well understand my view point.

Honestly speaking I still have same respect for the army, I still have almost same belief that army people can well deliver good by better controlling systems but at the same time to be honest with my ALLAH a little down sliding of this respect has started. I was never influenced reading so many articles criticising army, alleged irregularities in defence contracts, alleged defeats, alleged this and that but the day I learnt houses allegedly for army officers were being built on a part of national staudium Karachi this down towards journey starded. And I wonder this is what unknown planners actually have planned and this is their strategy.

brother, i have lived in many places but in karachi most out of all of them, currently living in khi also. i have immense love for the army jawans. driving to the office everyday, there are areas where there’s army patrolling. i feel a warm pride when i see these jawans and i think thank God they are there to protect us. i always utter a silent prayer for them and its true that when i see them i feel safe.

BUT on the other hand, it is very true that the generals, many of them have been corrupt and have used our army for their selfish agendas and goals. i do not support all the operations the army is involved in. the leaders got our jawans involved in those operations.

what happenned in 1971? what did yahya khan do? he used the army. what happenned in wana? our army jawans were used by the leadership.

Pak Fouj k jawanon jaanasheeno ko salam Pak Fouj zindabad :jhanda:

Jawed,
welcome to GS!
it was one big good post!

no matter what people say or what they do, i also firmly believe that our army, apart from some bad elements, is the world's best! long live pakistan army!

How many wars has the pakistan army won? You're talking about it as if it has won many wars when it has barely won even a single war.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
How many wars has the pakistan army one?
[/QUOTE]

One? or do you mean to say WOn?

Well altough i am furious at the disrespectful way you have addressed this question, out of curtosey to all those who died i shall answer:

(1)1965 War -September when one lone tank regiment gave a severe mauling to two tank regiments out of a total available Indian force of an armoured division, and a brigade level counter attack in Lahore Sector.

The counter attack of Brigadier Qayyum Sher in Lahore Sector was a successful divisional battle ordered by Major General Sarfaraz MC and executed by Brigadier Qayyum Sher most resolutely! It produced a crisis on the Indian side and threw the Indians off balance! Both retired in the same rank sometimes after the war!

1987 Crisis
The 1987 Crisis was a case of over enthusiasm at the military level with little outward enthusiasm at the highest political level. The Indian Chief Sundarji was living in visions of Glory and visualized that a military manoeuvre would escalate into a war which would lead to a successful Indian military thrust severing the Pakistani line of communication in Rahimyar Khan Sector thus leading to the emergence of a new state in Pakistani Sindh and the creation of a second Indian Field Marshal after Manekshaw i.e Sundarji!

Comically Sundarji’s visions of glory were not matched by strategic insight! Thus he was overawed into inaction and inertia like K.K Singh at Gadgor, once the Pakistani High Command relocated the Pakistani reserves northwards in a purely defensive move!

1987 was a watershed and marked the Indian Army at its lowest position in the eyes of the highest Indian political leadership

vis-a-vis the high position of 1971. Sundarji destroyed all that the Indian Army had gained in 25 years with one night of irresolution and inertia!

1999 Crisis

The 1999 Crisis in Kargil were the result of an audacious Pakistani plan to inflict a sharp but highly subtle psychological defeat on the Indians by threatening the Indian line of communication to Leh and Siachen by placing a small Pakistani force on the heights overlooking the Dras-Kargil-Leh Road. The execution at tactical level was brilliant albeit marked by poor logistic arrangements at divisional level! The Pakistani political leadership lost the resolution to press home the move to its final conclusion. Full facts are not available about what the Pakistan Army’s highest leadership wanted at this point in time.

The Indians payed a heavy price in terms of casualties for an intelligence failure. What Pakistan gained or lost is not clear although a debate continues about who was Kargils winner. Kargil stands out as merely one stage in a long series of actions in Pakistani military history.[Undecided]

(Source- Pakistan Defence Journal 2001/august.)

My Grand Uncle Brig A.Rabb Khan Niazi (SJ) Retired, fought bravely and defended lahore he was part of the one regiment in Lahore Sept 1965.

I hope this answers your question and personally i am disgusted at your attitude concerning the actions of brave and fearless actions of the Pakistan Army to Defend Pakistans Sovereignty.

I am starting to think you are not Pakistani.. Your Words and attitude Disgust me!!!

1965, Pakistan army sent in guerillas into Kashmir in order to win back Kashmir. Instead what happened was that pakistan army almost lost lahore. I don't call that is winning anything. A stalemate at best.

1971, we all know.

1987, no one actually fought.

1999, pakistani forces were hit hard on the peaks of kargil from indian bombs and had to retreat leaving behind bodies that pakistan abandoned.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
1965, Pakistan army sent in guerillas into Kashmir in order to win back Kashmir. Instead what happened was that pakistan army almost lost lahore. I don't call that is winning anything. A stalemate at best.

1971, we all know.

1987, no one actually fought.

1999, pakistani forces were hit hard on the peaks of kargil from indian bombs and had to retreat leaving behind bodies that pakistan abandoned.
[/QUOTE]

Imdad, simple question: Do you consider yourself a Pakistani? A yes or no answer is all that is required.

All you have pointed out is that Pakistan, a much smaller country (both in area/population) held its own against a country better equipped, greater in size and stronger in military. Now please me what other country in South Asia has done the same? Go ahead talk about SL and Bangladesh...

The only time India faced an equivalent rival was in '62..Please update us on the results of that war as well.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *

1999, pakistani forces were hit hard on the peaks of kargil from indian bombs and had to retreat leaving behind bodies that pakistan abandoned.
[/QUOTE]

Only when Paksitan was pulling out and India back tracked on its earlier promise not to hit did we end up taking casualties. In high altitudes as such with peeks air bombing is some what useless. 65, we Hit the Indians back, at the point where Gen. Chaudhri who wanted a drink in Lahore was trembling with fear, and I forgot some sikh brigadier ended up saving India otherwise India was about to retreat all the way to Jullunder. THis is all in the offcial indian 65 war study.

But ignoring all that. WHat is your problem with Pakistan?

As always, well said Rajput and welcome back! long time no see…

Here is someting from an Indian perspective… Please ask this moron if he has ever heard of rann of kutch famously known as they ran in rann.

Previously discussed at:- http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23532&highlight=what+daddy+india+1965

What did you do in the war, daddy?
Dangers of military myths

The official history confirms another great failing of the 1965 war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to provide a decisive edge on the battlefield or even match up to the Pakistanis

In a society where even the writing of ancient history is so politically contentious, it is difficult to expect a realistic appreciation of fairly recent wars. Culturally, we also confuse military science with soldierly heroism. We can spend all our time extolling our troops for the courage they showed in Kargil but avoid talking about what got them in such a near-impossible war in the first place. Even with our bigger wars, propaganda myths created in the course of the engagements are then perpetuated for decades. In the 22-day war in 1965, for example, as schoolchildren we were taught that the Pakistani pilots were so scared of the tiny Gnat that they fled the moment they spotted one. That it was because the then army chief, General J.N. Chowdhary, was such a world-famous hot-shot in tank warfare that the Pakistani armour came unstuck at Khem Karan and other graveyards of the Patton. That Lahore and Sialkot were almost sure to be in our bag if the war had gone on a few more days.

That is why it is refreshing that India’s own official history of the country’s first full-fledged modern war has been written with a degree of detachment. It confirms several widely held beliefs in the strategic community and described in the many books on that war. In India, the official history has followed close after the release of In the Line of Duty: A Soldier Remembers, the autobiography of Lt Gen Harbakhsh Singh, one of our tallest generals ever, professionally and physically, at 6-ft-2. As the western army commander during the 1965 war (there was no northern command then), he also led the operations in Kashmir and therefore controlled the entire war.

His revelations, read with his earlier War Despatches and now authenticated by the official history, are devastating. It is, for example, now confirmed that not only did Gen Chowdhury play a very small role in the entire campaign, he was so nervous as to be on the verge of losing half of Punjab to Pakistan, including the city of Amritsar. Harbakhsh describes, in clinical detail, how our own offensive in the Lahore sector had come unhinged. The general commanding the division on Ichchogil canal fled in panic, leaving his jeep, its wireless running and the briefcase containing sensitive documents that were then routinely read on Radio Pakistan during the war. Singh wanted to court martial him, Chowdhury let him get away with resignation.

But a bigger disaster struck a bit to the south where the other division cracked up in assault, just as it encountered a bit of resistance. Several infantry battalions, short on battle inoculation, deserted and Singh gives a hair-raising account – and confirmation of a long-debated rumour – that Chowdhury panicked so badly he ordered him to withdraw to a new defensive line behind the Beas, thereby conceding half of Punjab to Pakistan. Singh describes the conversation with Chowdhury at Ambala where he refused to carry out the order, asking his chief to either put it down in writing or visit the front and take charge of the battle. Chowdhury waffled even on that panicky decision, Singh’s artillery and some rag-tag armour lured the Pattons into soggy ground on a moonlit night and the result was the greatest escape to victory in our post-Independence military history. What was to be a spectacular Pakistani breakthrough right up
to Panipat became a great rout of its armour.

The official history confirms not just this but also another great failing of that war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to not only provide a decisive edge on the battlefield but to even match up to the Pakistanis. It did not participate in any of the big battles. Many of its attacks were casual, half-hearted, even suicidal, as the decision of opening the campaign with four Vampires, one of history’s first jets, made of plywood, to block the Pakistani advance in Chhamb. All four were shot, and IAF opened the campaign with a 0-4 deficit. Then followed a bizarre story of no communication between the army and the air force. The army apparently thought it could sort out the Pakistanis by itself. The air force thought it was fighting a war exclusively with the PAF.

There was evidently too little communication between the army, air force and the political leadership. The IAF, for example, was told to stay back in the hangars in the eastern sector even when the PAF launched withering attacks on Kalaikunda and Bagdogra. Even after the disastrous Chhamb engagement, the IAF was so casual as to leave a whole bunch of frontline aircraft exposed at Pathankot, within minutes of flying time from PAF bases, and the result was another disaster in a raid at dusk. The Pakistanis seemed to have such a free run they even shot down the Dakota carrying the then chief minister of Gujarat, Balwant Rai Mehta, deep inside our territory, at night.

Many of us have read with great resentment and scepticism claims of writers like former PAF chief Air Marshall Asghar Khan (India-Pakistan War: The First Round) and British writer John Fricker who give Pakistan a TKO victory in the 1965 air war. Fricker, in particular, gave these claims international currency with his controversial article, ‘30 Seconds over Sargodha’, which described ‘‘how’’ a PAF pilot shot down four Indian Hunters in 30 seconds over the Sargodha airbase. These claims are highly inflated. But the fact remains that in 1965 the IAF failed to tilt the balance in any theatre of the war. Singh says the IAF was simply not prepared for war, physically or mentally. The IAF commanders from that period, including the then chief Arjan Singh, say the army never kept them in the loop. But the fact is that all of them, even the eastern and western command chiefs, were decorated after the war. There were no questions asked.

There weren’t any asked elsewhere either. Every single army general even remotely connected with the war effort was decorated, including the Strike Corps commander in the Sialkot sector who did not cover five miles in 15 days. Chowdhury himself was cast as some kind of a swadeshi Rommel, though he never got within shouting distance of the war. And even the then naval chief was decorated though his fleet remained firmly in harbour, failing to stir out even after the Pakistanis cockily pounded Dwarka.

The dangers in perpetuating mythologies built during a war into a kind of instant military history are obvious. It is impossible to first generously lionise and decorate people and to then hold them accountable for what they did wrong during a war. We obviously learnt some lessons from these in 1965 and the result was a decisive, premeditated campaign and victory in 1971. The key to that lightning campaign was total understanding between the army and the IAF. But if you look back on the way we once again rushed to hand out decorations post-Kargil and how closed we still are to the idea of finding out how on earth we let so many Pakistanis get so well entrenched on so much territory for so long, you wonder if the lessons of 1965 are so thoroughly forgotten that we are willing to make the same mistakes again.

Jackal, Rajput, Badsha, Abdali!!!
great posts buddies!!!
im left with nothing to add :slight_smile: :k:

longlive our heores and martyrs, longlive our forces and long live Pakistan!!!

hey jackal,
did your greatuncle Brig Niazi ever come across Maj Aziz Bhatti by any chance? i'm a great fan of Maj Bhatti N.H. Would love to meet his family some day...he was a true hero! was superhuman at the BRB canal at Burki border in Lahore.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Imdad, simple question: Do you consider yourself a Pakistani? A yes or no answer is all that is required.

All you have pointed out is that Pakistan, a much smaller country (both in area/population) held its own against a country better equipped, greater in size and stronger in military. Now please me what other country in South Asia has done the same? Go ahead talk about SL and Bangladesh...

The only time India faced an equivalent rival was in '62..Please update us on the results of that war as well.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I consider myself a Pakistani. What else will I consider myself? Somalian? Anyway, it is you people who don't want to consider me a pakistani because I do not worship the pakistan army.

Defending ones country is supposed to be what the army does. It is nothing special, even if India is a larger country. My point remains, Pakistan army has not won any war but its supporters talk like they have beaten every army since the time of Ceaser. Instead pakistan army surrendered against india in the most humiliating defeat any coutnry could ever face. No one wants to talk about why that happened. Have some prespective over the role of the army.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Haris Zuberi: *
hey jackal,
did your greatuncle Brig Niazi ever come across Maj Aziz Bhatti by any chance? i'm a great fan of Maj Bhatti N.H. Would love to meet his family some day...he was a true hero! was superhuman at the BRB canal at Burki border in Lahore.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah i know you wont belive me when i say this but the fought side by side. Thats why he's got a SJ - Sitara Jurat!

And as for Imads Post above, all i can say is let the Koota bark, i cant be bothered to talk sense into this one!

There are countless people who do not like the Pakistan army, and they are Pakistanis too, nothing to cry about. Instead of calling them 'koottas' we can carry out a civilized argument, and prove to them that soldiers are soldiers, they ought to be respected as they fight for their country, be it Pakistani, Indian, or even an American.

**
Yes, I consider myself a Pakistani. What else will I consider myself? Somalian? Anyway, it is you people who don't want to consider me a pakistani because I do not worship the pakistan army.
**

Really? It is news to me because if you reread of your messages here, you hate Pakistan than most of our Indian guppies. I say you might as well consider yourself American or Indian because it is clear that you hate Pakistan.

No one is asking you to worship the Pakistani army. In fact there are many guppies who dislike the military or President Mush., however they are still Pakistanis because they still support the Pakistani people, by that I dont mean some narrow definition of Shia Urdu speakers of Karachi.

I love all Pakistanis as my people. It doesn't make a difference to me whether you come from a specific province, or what language you speak or what religion you follow, if your alleigences lie with the crescent and the moon, that is enough for me. It is true that I have a special connection to Punjab/Rajputs/Attock because I share a lot of things with much more than just blood relation. Being proud of who you are does not mean that you have to put others down or not realize the mistakes of your people. Pakistan to me, goes beyond the military, if you can't realize that, then it is your bigotry that is clouding your judgement.
**
Defending ones country is supposed to be what the army does. It is nothing special, even if India is a larger country. My point remains, Pakistan army has not won any war but its supporters talk like they have beaten every army since the time of Ceaser. Instead pakistan army surrendered against india in the most humiliating defeat any coutnry could ever face. No one wants to talk about why that happened. Have some prespective over the role of the army. **

The Pakistani Army has defended the borders. It is special, when you consider the heavy disadvantages that the armed forces have faced. A lesser army would have capitulated.

As for '71 it was a political defeat before a military one. Dealing with a hostile populace, being cut from the fatherland by thousands miles and running low supplies, what did you EXPECT them to do? Really, I am looking for an answer.

I see the Armed forces as the premier force keeping the nation united from the likes or fundamentalists, ethnic warmongers (like yourself) and other anti state elements...I sense that you realize the same thing, which is precisely why you oppose the military. As you see it, it is the biggest thorn on your side, the radicals, and India.

Imdad, what I find ironic is that you sit in the US thinking that you can criticize Pakistan left and right...but your gora counterparts will still label you as a terrorist paki. So the way I see it, your neither here nor there.

**
Really? It is news to me because if you reread of your messages here, you hate Pakistan than most of our Indian guppies. I say you might as well consider yourself American or Indian because it is clear that you hate Pakistan. **

How is telling the truth about the army has done to pakistan end up into hating pakistan?

*No one is asking you to worship the Pakistani army. In fact there are many guppies who dislike the military or President Mush., however they are still Pakistanis because they still support the Pakistani people, by that I dont mean some narrow definition of Shia Urdu speakers of Karachi. *

I always support the pakistani people. And whatever narrow definition you speak of was forced on me by the rulers of pakistan and their apoligists. They are the ones who discrminate against others not of their biradari.

*I love all Pakistanis as my people. It doesn't make a difference to me whether you come from a specific province, or what language you speak or what religion you follow, if your alleigences lie with the crescent and the moon, that is enough for me. It is true that I have a special connection to Punjab/Rajputs/Attock because I share a lot of things with much more than just blood relation. Being proud of who you are does not mean that you have to put others down or not realize the mistakes of your people. Pakistan to me, goes beyond the military, if you can't realize that, then it is your bigotry that is clouding your judgement. *

I am happy that you love all pakistanis equally, but when will the pakistani government love all pakistanis equally. I'm hoping sometime in my lifetime. Your words are nice, but practice is very different in pakistan at least.

**The Pakistani Army has defended the borders. It is special, when you consider the heavy disadvantages that the armed forces have faced. A lesser army would have capitulated.

As for '71 it was a political defeat before a military one. Dealing with a hostile populace, being cut from the fatherland by thousands miles and running low supplies, what did you EXPECT them to do? Really, I am looking for an answer. **

Who carried out the brutal orders? Tikka Khan, yaha khan were all involved. Genocide of 3 million muslims, is that what we expect from an army under pressure? Killing of bengali intellictuals in operation searchlight. No one ever officially punished for such despicable crimes. How can I respect an army with such a history that it has never come to terms with?

*I see the Armed forces as the premier force keeping the nation united from the likes or fundamentalists, ethnic warmongers (like yourself) and other anti state elements...I sense that you realize the same thing, which is precisely why you oppose the military. As you see it, it is the biggest thorn on your side, the radicals, and India. *

I see the army as the biggest reason for the demise of pakistani democratic insitutions and the rise of ethnicism since army rule effectively means punjabi rule. It has killed more of its citizens then the enemy, usurped land and resources of minority ethnciites and occupied lands of its citizens for its own use. I see it as a qubza group of pakistani nation and spirit. Why else do they hurl abuses at pakistan army in all of southern pakistan? Are we all RAW agents?

*Imdad, what I find ironic is that you sit in the US thinking that you can criticize Pakistan left and right...but your gora counterparts will still label you as a terrorist paki. So the way I see it, your neither here nor there. *
I've had a much safer life in america then in pakistan, i don't know what the goras will do to me in the future. I know what my fellow pakistani brothers did to me and my family.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The_Jackal: *

Yeah i know you wont belive me when i say this but the fought side by side. Thats why he's got a SJ - Sitara Jurat!

And as for Imads Post above, all i can say is let the Koota bark, i cant be bothered to talk sense into this one!
[/QUOTE]

WOW! Jackal! great to hear that!
ive always been a die hard fan of Maj Bhatti, this man was legendary.

was your uncle in 17 Punjab too? and what was his rank in65? could you let me in on some deatils about what he may have told you about Maj Bhatti and the kind of person he was and so on...?
thanks a bucnh!

I beg your pardon, but uptill now what have you said can be classified as the truth? It is your own personal opnion and not the truth! “OK!” besides you have yet to provide evidence to back up your somtimes idiotic claims.

Well are you sure? I am a pathan but i dont get prosecuted, i know hundreds of southerners and northeners who dont feel prosecuted i even know christians. Do you know why they arent discriminated against? Because they class themslefs as Pakistani’s first. “OK!” - Pakistani First!!!

Again, there seems to be a mjor problem with you and the Pakistani GOvernment..

OMG, What Bull****… Do you even know the real story? Why do you think the Bangali Gov Forgave us? Why dont you read the war papers or even better my Grandfathers Cousin was Gen A.K.Niazi (Late) why dont you ask his son? or why dont you ask those familys that lost their sons that day? Both sides lost that day.. Ohh if that is bad, then why isnt thw world holding india to account about what they are currently doing in India? Or what the Hutu’s did to the tutsi’s in Africa? 8 Million people wiped out? No body asked!!! Its not new ok!! For a non-bias view of Pakistan and the Struggles why dont you read Pakistan: At the Crosscurrent of History (One World)
by Lawrence Ziring . It will open your eyes.

Again some bull****, where do you get this from? Ok so some people hat the Pakistani army, That is acceptable. Afterall many other nations ctizens hate their armys for one reason or another. I.e.: Japanses, the British the Dutch and the Pols. So Big Deal.
And as for the whole of southern Pakistan hurling abuse at the Pakistan army, well i have half my family in karachi and some of them are in the army. Once again they are Pushtun and they are not descriminated against.. Hmm I wonder why? perhaps because they love thier country.

Hah.. Safe, Dont make me laugh, the land of the 24hr mugger.

When i was iving in the UK i was constantly worried about getting mugged when using the tube or walking at night. We even had huge posters saying dont use your mobiles in public for fear of robbery. “Hello Mobile Phone” ! Mobile!!! - You dont get that in Pakistan. Whats worse is when i went to LA to visit my cousin he told me of the serious crime situation.. where in the U.S. someone is raped every 1 hour, there is a robbery every 10 munites there is a mugging every 30 seconds and there is a murder every 10 hours. 1996 Stats “Nationmaster.com” - Safe my ass!

The biggest insult is that you sit in the US of America and supposedly safe in your civilised deomcracy you feel you have the right to critise and insult Pakistan and its establishment? Please, your such a hipocrit and such a liar. When i asked if you live in Pak or not you said, that you lived in a Middle Class part of Karachi.. yeah right!:rolleyes:

Once again do you feel your the only one who has suffered in pakistan? I dont think so.. I know of many people who have had a worse fait then yours atleast your still alive and have your family and now live in the US. Some people have lost thier familys to millitants yet still love Pakistan. Why ? Because Pakistan is where we were born and it is under this flag where we shall rest! “Inshallah”!!

And i shall say this to you as a muslim, that you think you are safe in the US well, your mistaken. Your in thier Land a foreigner and altough they give you a false sense of safety and fellowship they are merely tolerating you. You sir are living a fools paradise. A day will come when they will kick all you foreigners out. Espically msulims and guess what .. I will laugh at that moment and remember the exact words you said to me..

A FINAL NOTE:
If your so comfortable and safe in the US, please why dont you keep it that way. Just leave us savage, illetrate and illmannered pakistanis to our own devices. Huh? Remember there is a saying, unless your willing to help. Dont Critise!

Its easier to sit and point the finger but harder to help make a difference. I am here in Pakistan, i left the UK for my native country even though i hold a British Passport. Why? Because i was born here! My dad was born here! He died here! Was burried here!, I see pakistan has problems and wanted to make a difference so i came back here and now help the government besides starting my own company.

Enough- Said!

Imdad, although what I wanted to say, has already been said by Jackal, I will still respond to your charges against Pakistan.

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How is telling the truth about the army has done to pakistan end up into hating pakistan?
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You don't hold a divine conbnection to what the "truth" is. You cannot account for all of Pakistans armed forces through your tainted vision. It is not my fault if you distrust the Pakistani military or are cynical in regards to Pakistan, that is your problem..I am calling it as I see it.

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I always support the pakistani people. And whatever narrow definition you speak of was forced on me by the rulers of pakistan and their apoligists. They are the ones who discrminate against others not of their biradari.
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You support the Pakistani people? But wait you have implicitly hated Punjab ever since you came to gupshup, don't exactly speak of Pakhtuns in high terms..and the Sindhis well we all know about them. No one was forcing any definations on you, it you who decided to differentiate yourself. To me, all Pakistanis are my people.

Discrimination exists in every society- its an unfortunate part of the human condition. However we all must work against discrimination and make sure that it does not become part of state policy.

If you look at the leaders of Pakistan, how many have come from the Punjab? And I mean the 'real' Punjab not NS and his Kashmiri migrant posse? I am talking about a Rajput, a Jatt, a Gujjar? Ofcourse you racists have that blanket statement of "oh they are controlled by Punjab" which is baseless. If Punjabis were as united as you pretend them to be, why wouldn't we have the Prime Ministership instead of being thrown a bone in the form of Rafiq Tarar as the President? You racists have defamed Punjab and Punjabis for too long. Even on Gupshup, most Punjabis take your insults lying down, but you better believe that this Rajput will not let you defame an entire province.

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I am happy that you love all pakistanis equally, but when will the pakistani government love all pakistanis equally. I'm hoping sometime in my lifetime. Your words are nice, but practice is very different in pakistan at least.
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What can I say? I guess many people have turned as narrowminded as you are. I don't care to discuss my background further, but lets just say that I have thought to consider Pakistanis & Muslims as my people, if it is not the same for you, then so be it.

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Who carried out the brutal orders? Tikka Khan, yaha khan were all involved. Genocide of 3 million muslims, is that what we expect from an army under pressure? Killing of bengali intellictuals in operation searchlight. No one ever officially punished for such despicable crimes. How can I respect an army with such a history that it has never come to terms with?
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Imdad, I agree with you there. I do hold the army responsible for it. However lets not forget ZAB's role in the matter -- Democratically elected Bhutto did not prosecute Tikka Khan, Yahya Khan and the rest.
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I see the army as the biggest reason for the demise of pakistani democratic insitutions and the rise of ethnicism since army rule effectively means punjabi rule. It has killed more of its citizens then the enemy, usurped land and resources of minority ethnciites and occupied lands of its citizens for its own use. I see it as a qubza group of pakistani nation and spirit. Why else do they hurl abuses at pakistan army in all of southern pakistan? Are we all RAW agents?
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Pakistani Armed forces are the only thing stopping anti-state elements from causing trouble or possibly seceding from Pakistan. The Armed forces recruit in all provinces, if the response is greater in Punjab, you cannot blame us for it.

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I've had a much safer life in america then in pakistan, i don't know what the goras will do to me in the future. I know what my fellow pakistani brothers did to me and my family. **

Well thats great. Agree or disagree, I would not want you to be unsafe or in danger. For me, being born in the US is irrelevant when you talk about the bond with the land of your ancestors, a nation of your people. Pakistan may be a new country, but it's Indus Valley heritage is richer than any country in the world.