Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

sanjsingh · July 5, 2013, 8:52pm

Over the years I have heard and read many many times how Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities have been doing badly in so many circles compared to their Indian counter parts and Black and White communities. Pakistani for instance are more likely to have to rely on handouts from the tax payer in the form of benefits to pay their housing rents, where Indians particularly Sikhs are more likely to own their own home and not be reliant on handouts.
Why is this??? It cannot be down to Islamophobia because the statistics are from the 2001 census a time before 9/11 when Islam was not in the news at is now.

Pakistani and Bangladeshi families ‘four times more likely to live in poverty’ | Joseph Rowntree Foundation

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Sikh, Jewish and Hindu households are the most likely to own their own homes. Around three-quarters or more of each group did so in Great Britain in 2001 (82 per cent, 77 per cent and 74 per cent respectively). Muslim and Buddhist households were the least likely to be homeowners (52 per cent and 54 per cent respectively).
Jewish and Christian households were the most likely to own their homes outright rather than be buying with a mortgage, at 40 per cent and 32 per cent respectively. Their older age profiles account for this to some extent, as they will have had more years to finish paying off their mortgages.
Muslim households are the most likely to be living in social rented accommodation, that is accommodation rented from the council or housing association. In 2001, 28 per cent of Muslim households were living in social rented accommodation. Hindu, Sikh and Jewish households were the groups least likely to be social renters – ranging between 8 and 9 per cent.
Buddhist households were the most likely to be living in private rented accommodation (24 per cent). A very small percentage of all households live rent-free (2 per cent), but Muslim households were twice as likely as other households to do so (4 per cent).
Muslim households are the most likely to experience overcrowding. One third of Muslim households (32 per cent) lived in overcrowded accommodation in 2001, as did 22 per cent of Hindu and 19 per cent of Sikh households. Just 6 per cent of Christian households experienced overcrowding. The high proportions for Muslim, Sikh and Hindu households are, to some extent, a reflection of their large size. Their average sizes were 3.8, 3.6 and 3.2 people respectively, compared with 2.3 people among Christian and Jewish households.
Muslim households were the most likely to lack central heating (12 per cent). Hindu and Sikh households were among the least likely to lack this facility (4 per cent and 5 per cent respectively). Eight per cent of Christian households did not have central heating. These differences could be seen across all household types, including households with children and pensioner only households.
Buddhists and Muslim households were the most likely to lack sole access to a bathroom (2 and 1 per cent respectively) and to not have self-contained accommodation (1 per cent for each). Again, this was true for all household types.
This pattern of housing deprivation among the different religious groups was evident across all regions and all socio-economic groups. It was particularly marked among households that had never worked and those experiencing long-term unemployment.

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Muslim unemployment rate highest
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Unemployment rates for Muslims are higher than those for people from any other religion, for both men and women.
In 2003-2004, Muslims had the highest male unemployment rate in Great Britain. At 14 per cent, this was over three times the rate for Christian men (4 per cent). Unemployment rates for men in the other religious groups were between 5 and 11 per cent.
Among women, Muslims again had the highest unemployment rate, at 15 per cent. This was almost four times the rate for Christian women (4 per cent). Hindus (11 per cent) and Buddhists (10 per cent) had the next highest rates. Unemployment rates for women in the other religious groups were between 5 and 8 per cent.
Unemployment rates were highest among those aged under 25 for all the religious groups. Muslims aged 16 to 24 years had the highest unemployment rates of all. They were twice as likely as Christians of the same age to be unemployed – 22 per cent compared with 11 per cent.
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phoenixdesi · July 5, 2013, 10:08pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

hindus need to have a special worship room in the home to place their gods ... hence they focus on getting their own homes with enough rooms.

kamal hai yarr...itni see baat samagh nahieen aiee tumhay?

Ali_Syed · July 6, 2013, 4:12am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Well the Pakistanis who mostly went to Uk were labourers due to the creation of mangla dam. That's the main reason for many Pakistanis not doing well there. The Pakistanis who went to other countries like Australia, US, Canada are much better as compared to their compatriots in Britain (main reason being educated).

Doppleganger · July 6, 2013, 4:18am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Even the second, third or fourth generations? They are still thugging out. I know Imran khan loves to mention UK and also how overseas Pakistanis are doing so well, but he never mentions UK by name in this case.

Ali_Syed · July 6, 2013, 4:25am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

^ most of the Brits seem to be stuck in time. Anyways, there are still Pakistani doctors, engineers and educationists working there.

Doppleganger · July 6, 2013, 4:29am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Yeah, but pakistanis and then blacks and bengalis are the mexicans of the british society and that is not even in a good sense. Even with faisal shehzad type clowns, we luckily don't face the kind of hate experienced by "pakis" in the UK except in the larger sense by some americans who are afraid and have disdain for "moozlims" for al kaayda.

People have told me that punjab has passed the maturity of the pakistani punjabs in UK, but with the recent radicalization of Punjab, I don't know if that is so true anymore. There is a theory that deobandiism / wahabiism spread in punjab as much as people influence in the gulf coming back to Pakistan to a revolt against the political pir / fakir class in southern punjab (hotbed of LET?). I shudder to think what sindhis and balochis would do when they decide to "revolt" against their feudals.

nikhil25 · July 6, 2013, 8:49pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

a substantial percentage of the indian migrants to the UK also went as low-skill laborers - bus drivers, cabbies, mom and pop retail, etc. generally their offspring ended up much better off than them.

i think the explanation does involve the skill/education-level relative to indian immigrants but also involves attitudinal issues.

sanjsingh · July 6, 2013, 9:19pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

As a first generation British Sikh I can say that many Sikh immigrants (my parents generation) where from working class backgrounds with little qualifications but had a hard work attitude which enabled them to succeed.
Also I see many Pakistanis who live in the properties of Sikh Hindu landlords but it is the taxpayer who pays the rent and the Pakistani tenants are happy for that to continue. In schools too Sikhs and Hindus who were entitled to free school meals rarely took them out of principle but almost all the Pakistanis were on free school meals because their parents did not earn enough. Maybe because social security was there certain communities took advantage of it but that wasn't the case in the US or other countries.
Extremist Islamic preachers like Abu Qatada, Abu Hamza, Anjem Chaudary etc also relied on the state for their livelihoods but they may have been playing economic warfare on the UK.

rommel · July 7, 2013, 2:29am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

sanjsingh:

As a first generation British Sikh I can say that many Sikh immigrants (my parents generation) where from working class backgrounds with little qualifications but had a hard work attitude which enabled them to succeed. Also I see many Pakistanis who live in the properties of Sikh Hindu landlords but it is the taxpayer who pays the rent and the Pakistani tenants are happy for that to continue. In schools too Sikhs and Hindus who were entitled to free school meals rarely took them out of principle but almost all the Pakistanis were on free school meals because their parents did not earn enough. Maybe because social security was there certain communities took advantage of it but that wasn't the case in the US or other countries. Extremist Islamic preachers like Abu Qatada, Abu Hamza, Anjem Chaudary etc also relied on the state for their livelihoods but they may have been playing economic warfare on the UK.

your assumptions of seeing muslim tenants renting from a sikh landlord is so random it is unreal as if this is the norm for a entire nation.

there are thousands of muslim landlords in the uk and many who have hindu and sikh tenants does that mean these sikhs are stealing taxpayers money also in your bigoted worldview?

Then you go on a rant about extremist preachers???

based on these and your previous comments you are a racist sikh who does not like muslims it is simple as that.

sanjsingh · July 7, 2013, 8:18pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

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your assumptions of seeing muslim tenants renting from a sikh landlord is so random it is unreal as if this is the norm for a entire nation.
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Well whether it is random or not would depend on the circumstances of my observations especially considering you are not there to see.

I can see you wish to play the race card, I have raised important points but many would use the race card to drown out the points raised especially when they are raised by a non-Muslim.

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you are a racist sikh
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Interesting choice of words, maybe you would care to comment on the points raised by myself and others?

Med911 · July 7, 2013, 8:33pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Well, Muslims have been under performing in comparison to Hindus as far back as anyone can remember. Hindus were often the primary beneficiaries of improving educational standards and improving job opportunities during the British era. Muslims seem to have gotten set in some weird fix since the fall of the mughals, that still seems to resonate to this day, god only knows why.

Thankfully, Pakistani Americans (not sure about Canadians) seem to be doing alright and have bucked the trend, while Bangladesh as a nation, has improved social indicators significantly over the last 20 odd years, even surpassing India in a number of areas.

From what I have seen among Pakistanis in the UK, owing to the large size of the population, they tend to cluster together in these close knit communities where interaction with general society isnt often possible and in some cases is shunned... And the matter isnt helped by the welfare system, which while appreciated, doesn't really encourage the beneficiary to go out there and make things happen for himself.

nikhil25 · July 8, 2013, 5:32am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Med911:

Well, Muslims have been under performing in comparison to Hindus as far back as anyone can remember. Hindus were often the primary beneficiaries of improving educational standards and improving job opportunities during the British era. Muslims seem to have gotten set in some weird fix since the fall of the mughals, that still seems to resonate to this day, god only knows why.

Thankfully, Pakistani Americans (not sure about Canadians) seem to be doing alright and have bucked the trend, while Bangladesh as a nation, has improved social indicators significantly over the last 20 odd years, even surpassing India in a number of areas.

From what I have seen among Pakistanis in the UK, owing to the large size of the population, they tend to cluster together in these close knit communities where interaction with general society isnt often possible and in some cases is shunned... And the matter isnt helped by the welfare system, which while appreciated, doesn't really encourage the beneficiary to go out there and make things happen for himself.

i generally agree with this but i think the elephant in the room is differences in ambition level and priorities. i'm not sure there's a simple explanation but religiosity and subscription to notions of predestination are probably not a bad place to start looking.

Med911 · July 8, 2013, 4:39pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Well, some historians believe its due to a bitterness over the loss of influence in post Mughal India, which caused the Muslims to become more introverted and even hostile to changing times. This was reinforced by the failed revolution of 1857, after which Muslim prospects were diminished even further. I suspect that this attitude was sustained by the wealth generated during better times under Muslim rule, many Muslims having their own land to farm, thus could survive despite not taking advantage of the opportunities afforded to them by the British beyond service in the Army.
HIndus on the other hand, not generally of the landed class, having nothing to lose, nor having any stake in the ideological social constraints placed by the Muslims on themselves, openly adapted to the new era.

Predestination and religiosity, i dont know, perhaps.. All religious people exhibit religiosity and all nations, regardless of religious affinity, have a sense of predestination. Hinduism indulges in such notions as well, how else to explain the caste system?
For what its worth, while the Indian diaspora has done well, the social indicators for India itself, are worse then or on par with many parts of SubSaharan Africa.
Why Indians have done well individually outside the country, yet have only marginally improved living standards in India itself is a nut I cant crack. If it were all to simply come down to mindset and ideological leanings, then India would be the Japan of South Asia. And neither would Bangladesh with its majority Muslim population have surpassed the Indians in the same social indicators if it all came down to religiosity and predestination. So perhaps its a bit more complicated then that.

Med911 · July 8, 2013, 5:06pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Repost..

rommel · July 8, 2013, 5:24pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

your called a racist because you made racist comments you claimed pakistani muslims are tax money thieves.

ignoring the fact their are thousands of muslim of pakistani background who are landlords themselves in the UK. You also conveniently refused to acknolwedge that in UK sikh and hindus claim tax payers money in their droves themselves.

You cannot single out one community make racial sterotypes like that and say why play race card this is 2013 not 1963.

sanjsingh · July 8, 2013, 10:10pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

ok rommel would you kindly highlight where I had claimed that Pakistanis whether Muslims or otherwise are thieves.

There are many many Pakistani or Bangladeshi landlords or successful business persons but the points raised by so many charitable organizations over the years is that they are a disproportinate amount of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who rely on the taxpayer for a variety of benefits. Now that isn’t my opinion but a fact. There are indeed Sikhs and Hindus who also claim benefits but at a disproprtionate rate.

So that means if you take 1000 Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims 80 or 90 of the Sikhs and Hindus would be relying on the taxpayer to house them but the proportion of Muslims is alot higher, 280 of the Muslims would be reliant on the taxpayer to house them

Pakistani and Bangladeshi families in Britain are almost four times as likely to be living on low incomes as white households. Research funded by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation shows that as many as six out of ten have net incomes that are less than half the national average.
The study, by Richard Berthoud of the University of Essex, provides the first in-depth analysis of income data gathered from 2,500 ethnic minority households as part of the Government’s Family Resources Survey. It finds that:

Pakistani and Bangladeshi families are easily the poorest. High unemployment among men, low levels of economic activity by women, low pay and large family sizes all contribute to a situation in which 60 per cent fall below the unofficial poverty line set by half average household income.

The equivalent proportion of white households with less than half average income (not allowing for housing costs) is 16 per cent.

Indian and Chinese people have high levels of employment, and their average earnings are slightly higher than those of white workers. They can be viewed as prospering on this measure, yet their overall rates of poverty - 22 per cent and 28 per cent respectively - are higher than for white households.

Many people of Caribbean origin are unemployed, wages for men are below the level of their white counterparts and rates of lone parenthood are relatively high. Even so, the proportion of households with less than half national average income is only slightly higher than for whites.

There are problems in characterising people of African origin as a single ethnic group, but the research suggests that their incomes are relatively low, with 31 per cent living below the ‘poverty’ line.

The study suggests that even when adults in the family are working, Pakistani and Bangladeshi households are more likely to be poor (50 per cent), than white, non-pensioner households where no one has a paid job (43 per cent).
Low earnings and large family sizes meant that as many as 40 per cent of Bangladeshi and Pakistani working families are receiving Family Credit and other ‘in-work’ benefits, compared with only 8 per cent of white couples with children. Even so, many of them are only marginally better-off than if they had been unemployed and claiming Income Support.
Looking at the incomes of older people, the research finds a similar pattern, with white pensioners most likely to benefit from pension entitlements built up during a full career in work. Pakistani and Bangladeshi pensioners are at the opposite extreme, with few receiving non-state pensions and many living on means-tested benefits.
Richard Berthoud said: “The extent of poverty that this study has revealed among people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin is striking and demands greater attention from policy makers. Lack of appropriate education and training provides part of the explanation and could be part of the solution to poverty in this community. Account also needs to taken of Islamic traditions in relation to female employment and large family sizes. Purely economic factors are also important - such as the collapse of the textile industry in which so many Pakistanis were employed.”
He added: "The study also demonstrates the importance of means-tested social security benefits to some minority groups. They account for one third of the total income of Bangladeshi and Pakistani households. Means-tested benefits are designed to maintain families at a minimum income without wasting public money, but they also create a sense of dependence on the state from which it is difficult to build a position of even modest prosperity.
“But the analysis shows that by no means all minority groups experience low incomes. On some measures, Indians and Chinese are in a very similar position to the white population. So the poverty of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis cannot be explained solely by the fact they are an ethnic minority.”

Med911 · July 8, 2013, 10:37pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

You cant fight statistics... If it makes you feel any better, there is probably a whole host of internal dynamics affecting these two groups which the poll does not consider. You cant really draw any definitive conclusions based solely on this one poll. The truth is probably far more complicated then indicated by this survey alone.

hareem01 · July 9, 2013, 8:26am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

Hindus and sikhs are cool with taking out mortgages and bank loans coz they don't care about paying interest. May be that's why.

sanjsingh · July 9, 2013, 9:02am

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

[quote="heem01"]

Hindus and sikhs are cool with taking out mortgages and bank loans coz they don't care about paying interest. May be that's why.

Many of them would also find it difficult to get a bank loan or mortgage because of their lower earnings and higher levels of unemployment.

rommel · July 9, 2013, 5:42pm

Re: Pakistani poverty in the UK, but Indians doing well.

you stated they was happy to rely on tax payer money as if that is the norm for muslims in UK.

your report is from 2001 that is desperate to say the least.

whats your next insight from 1979

face it you when you ended your rant by using the same old muslims are lunatics and extremists your racism was exposed, you had no need to include this comment as it had nothing to do with the subject but you couldn't help yourself.