Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
Two men and two women having sex in a closet may not be harmful...but then as per Islamic law you can't really prosecute these people unless they're out in public doing their business, or proudly proclaiming such.
Islam looks down, and criminalizes, all forms of zina. That includes sex out of wedlock, and adultery. The punishment for homosexuality is at least the same for heterosexuals...flogging if not married else death if married.
This is an established principle with Hadith out the wazoo to support it. Ergo, decriminalizing homosexuality is akin to legalizing zina, which is in direct contradiction to Islamic dictates and so to the muslim mindset HARMFUL as it opposes an islamic order.
By the same token, censorship never harmed anyone, but you have people falling over each other to be the first to proclaim they'd die before they let that happen...it's considered very harmful to those who value free speech, though, say, the value of having a Christ figurine dipped in urine is as dubious as it sounds.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
Two men and two women having sex in a closet may not be harmful...but then as per Islamic law you can't really prosecute these people unless they're out in public doing their business, or proudly proclaiming such.
Islam looks down, and criminalizes, all forms of zina. That includes sex out of wedlock, and adultery. The punishment for homosexuality is at least the same for heterosexuals...flogging if not married else death if married.
This is an established principle with Hadith out the wazoo to support it. Ergo, decriminalizing homosexuality is akin to legalizing zina, which is in direct contradiction to Islamic dictates and so to the muslim mindset HARMFUL as it opposes an islamic order.
By the same token, censorship never harmed anyone, but you have people falling over each other to be the first to proclaim they'd die before they let that happen...it's considered very harmful to those who value free speech, though, say, the value of having a Christ figurine dipped in urine is as dubious as it sounds.
You say that as per Islamic law - you can't really prosecute people unless they're having sex in public.
This is true - the Islamic punishment for zina/adultery/homosexuality - is not a credible threat to stop people from committing the act. Only a few unfortunate ones get caught who are stupidly exhibitionist, the vast majority goes unpunished. Why then should we even have the law - if it is hardly ever used?
All around the Muslim world - zina/adultery/homosexuality goes on behind closed doors - the Islamic punishments only serve to hide this - that is all.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
1) If it is against nature than it should not exist in nature (and homosexuality is widespread in animals, too).
1.If you see the animal and human nature from the same angle, then it is useless to argue with you. we can not follow animals in any way. We are human beings. We can think, decide, create,invent, build or change our self according to circumstances. But animals can't. Do not mix up humans and animals. They are always different.
2.It is a sin according to my religion, and illegal according to Pakistan's law.
3.Please respect the law if you can not respect the beliefs.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
HOMOSEXUALITY AS A CRIME
For homosexuality to be a crime - you could say that it is:
A CRIME AGAINST GOD - in which case it is a matter against God and that individual
A CRIME AGAINST THE PERSON - i.e. a crime against each other - the two who have homo sex - this does not make sense if the two a consenting parties to sex
A CRIME AGAINST SOCIETY - no one has explained how it is a crime against society? I think the opposite is a crime against society - by not accepting homosexuals - our society forces them into marriage - which leads to unfulfilled marriages - and divorces and annulments.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
1.If you see the animal and human nature from the same angle, then it is useless to argue with you. we can not follow animals in any way. We are human beings. We can think, decide, create,invent, build or change our self according to circumstances. But animals can't. Do not mix up humans and animals. They are always different.
2.It is a sin according to my religion, and illegal according to Pakistan's law.
3.Please respect the law if you can not respect the beliefs.
Even animals don't kill the two of their own who indulge in homosexual behavior.
It is a sin according to the interpretation of your religion that you ascribe to. It is illegal according to Pakistani law - it should not be.
Respecting the law - One must fight against unjust laws. In the US before the civil war - slavery was legal - should everyone have followed the law?
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
Even animals don't kill the two of their own who indulge in homosexual behavior.
It is a sin according to the interpretation of your religion that you ascribe to. It is illegal according to Pakistani law - it should not be.
Respecting the law - One must fight against unjust laws. In the US before the civil war - slavery was legal - should everyone have followed the law?
1.Once again it is requested do not mix up animals with humans. Today you are demanding homosexuality , sooner you will demand another ugly thing, like doing sex with your sisters (As it is also common in animals). Why are you so keen to destruct the religious beliefs, cultural values and nature's law.
2.That was USA. It is a Pakistan.
3.That was slavery, and against slavery 100% nations agreed.Homosexuality , an ugly criminal act by law and religion. And on homosexuality not even 3 countries agreed.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
I don't have to use the excuse of homosexuality being present in the animal kingdom as a way of justifying homosexuality in human. I only pointed to that when someone said that homosexuality is against nature. If the person had said homosexuality is against human nature - I would not have linked to the wiki page on homosexuality in animals.
No I don't demand that brothers and sisters have sex with each other. I do think however if two people who are related - have sex - that is something between them and Allah - not something society should punish them on. I guess I'm too liberal for most western states as well then - because even they don't allow that. EDIT - actually I'm not so sure about incest - because the power dynamics and years of growing up with an abusive sibling can lead to biased decision which might not have been made without the difference in power relationship between the two. I guess it'd have to be on a case by case basis.
I think you missed that - Point 2 of yours was that homosexuality is a sin and against your religion to which I replied - that its against the dominant interpretation of your religion - to which you replied That was USA, it is Pakistan - which doesn't make sense.
No not all countries were 100% against slavery in the middle of the 1800's. To my knowledge Islam didn't criminalize slavery - rather encouraged freeing slaves - which is not the same thing. Please do correct me if I am wrong.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
@ raaz08
I would like your opinion on what the solution to homosexuality is though.
Because - even Islamic law - would only punish and kill those homosexuals who are caught and there are four witnesses to the act of penetration. Most homosexuals are smarter than that - fearful of their life that they would not do something in public.
Which would mean that the vast majority of homosexuals would go unpunished (un killed).
Which would mean that a person who you or I might consider having our sisters married to - is the (un killed) homosexual - because of a lack of a witch hunt to find him.
I might have sympathy for homosexuals - however I would never want a relative of mine to get married to one - because the guy didn't have the decency - or was too afraid of state/societal reprisal - to come out and not get married.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
You say that as per Islamic law - you can't really prosecute people unless they're having sex in public.
This is true - the Islamic punishment for zina/adultery/homosexuality - is not a credible threat to stop people from committing the act. Only a few unfortunate ones get caught who are stupidly exhibitionist, the vast majority goes unpunished. Why then should we even have the law - if it is hardly ever used?
All around the Muslim world - zina/adultery/homosexuality goes on behind closed doors - the Islamic punishments only serve to hide this - that is all.
To firmly put the public sphere in the domain of those who desire to practice Islam. To set the criterion of right and wrong. If people engage in illicit acts in private, it is still a far cry from the public being turned over to degenerates who would contradict and militate against Islamic values.
The goal of an Islamic society is to treat these acts as illicit as ordained, not to root out every occurrence and stop it...the nature of the crime is such that this would be sufficient.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
To firmly put the public sphere in the domain of those who desire to practice Islam.
Why assume that all those who practice Islam want Islam in the public sphere? Or can even agree on what that even means.
To set the criterion of right and wrong.
There are many other things what can be put in to a category of right versus wrong - which do not have a punishment associated with them. Punishment is not the only way to set the criterion between right and wrong.
If people engage in illicit acts in private, it is still a far cry from the public being turned over to degenerates who would contradict and militate against Islamic values.
I'm not sure I understand. Degenerates? Who are the degenerates? Why is it that anyone who speaks against imposing Hadd penalties is either not a true Muslim, or a degenerate, or both?
The goal of an Islamic society is to treat these acts as illicit as ordained, not to root out every occurrence and stop it...the nature of the crime is such that this would be sufficient.
And the goal of a human mind is to judge the effect of this policy versus the alternative. If the goal is not to root out a problem then why castigate the unlucky few who happen to get caught? The current policy of condemnation - and punishment for those caught leads to an underground homosexual society - which does cause problems for society.
Homosexuality doesn't cause problems in society because two men or two women sleep together. Homosexuality causes problems in society when a child commits suicide because of the hate speech that he/she hears in her own family while growing up. Homosexuality is a problem for society when homosexuals get pressurized into marriages - which either end - or linger on with both parties unsatisfied.
If homosexuality would be decriminalized - homosexuals would not have to hide in plain sight. They would not get forced into doomed marriages.
If society wants to think of homosexuality as right or wrong - they have every right to do. Reserving the option of killing them seems hardly necessary.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
1.If you see the animal and human nature from the same angle, then it is useless to argue with you.
That is the diff between science, logic and religion. Human are animals, too.
[quote]
we can not follow animals in any way.
[/quote]
What are you talking about? You were talking about nature, and how homosexuality is against nature. I explained to you that nature is made of human non-human and living and non-living things, and that homosexuality exist among animals as well.
[quote]
We are human beings. We can think, decide, create,invent, build or change our self according to circumstances. But animals can't. Do not mix up humans and animals. They are always different.
[/quote]
No kidding! :D
[quote]
2.It is a sin according to my religion, and illegal according to Pakistan's law.
3.Please respect the law if you can not respect the beliefs.
[/QUOTE]
Where? Homosexuality is widespread in Pakistan. As for the law, last time I checked Pakistan was being governed by the Constitution and not by the Islamic laws or run by mullahs.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
That is the diff between science, logic and religion. Human are animals, too.
What are you talking about? You were talking about nature, and how homosexuality is against nature. I explained to you that nature is made of human non-human and living and non-living things, and that homosexuality exist among animals as well.
No kidding! :D
Where? Homosexuality is widespread in Pakistan. As for the law, last time I checked Pakistan was being governed by the Constitution and not by the Islamic laws or run by mullahs.
Neither a single word related to, my post you quoted. Absolutely not a single world related to points that i raised. Just a denial, which is completely useless.This kind of tomfooleries you do write here, no body cant extract anything.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
Are you saying that “straight” people don’t have divorces, their marriages don’t get annulled, or if any marriage is split it is because one of them is gay?
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
Two men and two women having sex in a closet may not be harmful...but then as per Islamic law you can't really prosecute these people *unless they're out in public doing their business, or proudly proclaiming such. *
.
With this logic you are condoning rape as well.. because most of the rapist are not conducting their business in public or proudly proclaiming as such.. and certainly do not do so in front of four male witnesses who will testify against them in a court of law.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
heh, I’m guessing the smiley in the end is irony. But for the lurkers who might be confused. No not all marriages that end are because one of the two parties is gay. But some are - which wouldn’t even get to the point of marriage - if homosexuality was more acceptable in society.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
^^^
I agree.. folks let's get back to the topic..
Agreed - The US ambassador was within his rights to throw such a party - no one was harmed - other than peoples feelings - people need to grow a thicker skin with regards to such issues and not get all worked up about such things that harm no one else.
The Pakistani Ambassador in Washington - could call fundo Mulsim/Christian preachers to the Pakistan embassy and give an anti Gay party - and he would be within his rights to do so. He'd get condemned the same way we're condemning these people though.
With regards to coming back to the topic. its seems that both recent threads on homosexuality get derailed into the morality of homosexuality - because it is the moral condemnation that leads to condemnation of the group and opposition to such events. In which case the discussion on the morality/ right/wrongness of homosexuality becomes relevant.
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
HOMOSEXUALITY AS A CRIME
For homosexuality to be a crime - you could say that it is:
A CRIME AGAINST GOD - in which case it is a matter against God and that individual
A CRIME AGAINST THE PERSON - i.e. a crime against each other - the two who have homo sex - this does not make sense if the two a consenting parties to sex
A CRIME AGAINST SOCIETY - no one has explained how it is a crime against society? I think the opposite is a crime against society - by not accepting homosexuals - our society forces them into marriage - which leads to unfulfilled marriages - and divorces and annulments.
So yeah, its not a crime.
sir because ALLAH has said its a crime againt society
Re: Pakistani muslims condemn Homosexual ceremony in Islamabad
Agreed - The US ambassador was within his rights to throw such a party - no one was harmed - other than peoples feelings - people need to grow a thicker skin with regards to such issues and not get all worked up about such things that harm no one else.
The Pakistani Ambassador in Washington - could call fundo Mulsim/Christian preachers to the Pakistan embassy and give an anti Gay party - and he would be within his rights to do so. He'd get condemned the same way we're condemning these people though.
With regards to coming back to the topic. its seems that both recent threads on homosexuality get derailed into the morality of homosexuality - because it is the moral condemnation that leads to condemnation of the group and opposition to such events. In which case the discussion on the morality/ right/wrongness of homosexuality becomes relevant.
Sir no kafir can be allowed to challenge Islam and make fun of Muslim feelings and above all support a crime in Muslim Society
