Pakistani Identity?

Re: Pakistani Identity?

it's the key of my post;)
muthical identities are required to bring along people from various ethnies under the same falg: it's the reason why chinese BUT also USA are united though they are composed of various people!
i guess USA would be a more appropriate example for pakistan as USA is more recent

Re: Pakistani Identity?

Can you read hindi. Well almost hundred percent people in Pakistan can not read hindi. Both have different scripts. Most of peots and writers in indian movies are those who have studied urdu. With the passage of time Urdu has been dominating hindi. One can feel the difference between old indian movies and the new ones. The use of sanskrit words has been on decline in hindi language with the passage of time :slight_smile:

Re: Pakistani Identity?


yes, it's easier than reading urdu;)
that may be the reason, but some hindi words are just easier than complew persian phrases borrowed by urdu

Re: Pakistani Identity?

As much as u try to oppose it Urdu will remain part of our identity forever InshaAllah. Why dint the Punjabi speakers in the tehrik or otherwise oppose to that when Pak was formed. They dint have a problem with it, its one language that a heavy majority of South Asians can speak and I am proud it is Pakistan’s national language. If u have a problem with it, too bad, coz u’ll have to live with it!

Re: Pakistani Identity?

Hindi and Urdu as used by common Hindustanis are two names for the same language but representing different scripts. As pointed to by one poster here, even the minor variation of some lone words would also vanish. They call the movies they produce in Bollywood as Hindi movies but we consider them Urdu movies because the language is the same.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

Mythical identity is the one that comes into being as a result of a long evolutionary process extended over centries and millinia and the chronological reconstruction of the various phases of the development of which is not possible.

For example, Punjabi identity is a mythical identity that can't be traced back to the first originator and the development of which can't be chronologically described. This is because there is not just a single person having concieved the idea of "Punjabi Identity". (Usually, the people have the myth that they are the descendents of a common ancestor).

Mythical identity is the most profound and is the strongest binding force among its upholders.

Pakistani Identity, on the other hand, is a Historical identity. This is because we know who conceived the idea and how was it materialized. Its development is chronologically reconstructable/describable. Historical identity usually exists only at super-cultural level and is very shallow and transient.

Muslim Identity is also a Historical identity (you can abruptly change your religion...).

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i guess USA would be a more appropriate example for pakistan as USA is more recent
[/quote]

USA is not an appropriate example. This is because unlike USA, where people of different ethnicities and races criss-crossed during the process of settling in that country, Pakistan is compartmentalized i.e. each community occupies its "own compartment" (i.e. well-demarcated territory) and each has a distinct culture, language, and history.

Former USSR would be an appropriate example.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

LastOfTheDinosaurs,

You are not making sense when you claim that there is “no continuity” from Indus Valley Civilization to Pakistan. The memories of Harappan Civilization might had been forgotten through the centuries (until rediscovered 80 years ago), but its cultural/racial/geographical legacy lived on with its people who simply evolved with the arrival of newcomers. Pakistan region was exclusively the base of various civilizations and kingdoms such as the Harappan Civilization, the RigVedic Aryan country of Sapta Sindhva, the Scythian kingdom of Sakastan, the Greco-Buddhist civilization of Gandhara, and much more. With its evolving Harappan culture/race as its foundation, the fusion of newcomers and the natives kept the evolutionary cycle and today the synthesis is the Pakistani identity. Indus is to Pakistan what Nile is to Egypt and Tigris-Euphrates to Iraq with the legacy/heritage of its ancient civilizations. All great civilizations were interrupted by invasions, but its legacy/continuity always survived in different forms.

This is what the renowned archeologist on Harappan Civilization, Mark Kenoyer, has to say about the Harappan continuity/legacy, “Although earlier scholars thought that the Indus civilization disappeared around 1700 B.C., recent excavations in Pakistan indicate that the civilization gradually became fragmented into smaller regional cultures referred to as Late or post-Harappan cultures. The ruling classes and merchants of the major urban centers were no longer able to control the trade networks that served to integrate such a vast geographical area. The use of standardized weights, writing and seals became unnecessary as their social and political control gradually disappeared. The decline of the major urban centers and the fragmentation of the Indus culture can be attributed in part to changing river systems that disrupted the agricultural and economic system. Certain distinguishing hallmarks of the Indus civilization disappeared. Others, such as writing and weights, or aspects of Indus craft technology, art, agriculture and possibly social organization, continued among the Late and post-Harappan cultures. These cultural traditions eventually became incorporated in the new urban civilization that arose during the Early Historical period, around 600 B.C.” And this was published on Discover Magazine, “The legacy of the ancient Indus cities and their crafts people remains. The bead makers of the region continue to make beads based on Harappan techniques — though carnelian is now bored with diamond-tipped drills. Shell workers still make bangles out of conch shells. And in the crowded marketplaces, as merchants hawk the superiority of their silver over the low-quality ore of their neighbors, as gold and jewels are weighed in bronze balances, it’s hard to imagine that a 4,000-year-old Harappan bazaar could have been terribly different.”

With your logic many different people around the world wont be able to claim their heritage because their ancient civilizations were not “memorized” and thus lacks “continuity”. So according to you, the descendents of Mayans who happen to be today’s Guatemalans and Yucatanians have no right to claim their proud heritage of Mayan Civilization because they lacked memory/continuity since it was accidently rediscovered only a hundred years ago. There are many other examples. To make it simple, if you or your future generation forgets the name/memory of your great-great-grandfather then it does not mean that there is no continuity from him.

Geographical landscapes are diverse in many different countries, having commonality with neighboring countries. Same thing holds true for Pakistan, however, Pakistan’s natural boundaries are Karakoram mountains in the north, Sulaiman/Hindu-Kush mountains in the west, Arabian Sea in the south, and Thar desert and the Sutlej river on its east. This unique landscape with Indus river and its tributaries as its lifelihood made Pakistan region distinct from others. Sutlej-Thar have been the traditional-natural boundary between the Indus and Gangetic peoples: Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos which made Pakistan region distinct in its historical background. Moreover, Indus Valley (lets take Sindh) and the heart of Gangetic Valley are thousands of miles apart. Historically both regions evolved with its own language, religion, race, culture, etc.

The combined six commonalities of history, race, culture, religion, linguistics, and geography was “too broad/insufficient” for you to accept a Pakistani identity for the different ethnic groups of Pakistan. Well at least the ethnic groups of Pakistan have much more commonality between themselves when compared to our neighbors’ ethnic groups. Take Iran for instance who has only 63% Indo-Iranians and the rest Altaic and Semitic peoples. Afghanistan is almost 80% linguistically Indo-Iranian, and 1/3rd racially Mongoloid. India is 69% linguistically Indo-Iranian and the rest Dravidians, Sino-Tibetans, and Austrics… and so on and on. So what commonality do Pakistan’s neighbors’ ethnic groups have to give its national identity? Pakistan has an advantage in this aspect and the commonalities I stated in my previous post are very significant to define Pakistan’s identity. Pakistan’s current Islamocentric and Indocentric establishment has not yet fully capitalize on this in order to create a stronger Pakistani identity.

Your argument for countries based on ethnic groups is unrealistic based on the current geo-politics of the region, and will open up a pandora box. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, and India are multi-ethnic countries and the case for ethnic separatism can be valid for all of these countries. National identity is engineered for multi-ethnic countries. Pakistan’s linguistically Indo-Iranian, racially Caucasoid, geographically Indus Valley, historically Harappan-Aryan-Scythic-Turkic-etc, culturally Indo-Iranian-Islamic, and religiously Muslim commonalities between its ethnic groups makes it a very strong national identity, yet distinct from its neighbors. Sure most neighboring countries will always have some commonality with a country but the differences are usually greater.

As far as the term Afghan is concerned, sure in the past it exclusively meant Pashtun (in the national and ethnic sense), but that meaning evolved to a different one since today an Afghan is only a citizen of present-day Afghanistan. This is the accepted definition of Afghan worldwide, including among the non-Pashtun Afghans. In fact, non-Pashtun Afghans strongly oppose to the usage of Afghan as meaning Pashtun since it will represent Pashtun domination of Afghanistan. Other countries that you gave examples with ethnic name as the name for their country are ethnically the overwhelming majority (+80%), on the other hand Pashtuns are only 38% of Afghanistan. Even Wikipedia states, “Pashtuns are also historically referred to as ethnic Afghans as the terms Pashtun and Afghan were synonymous until the advent of modern Afghanistan and the division of the Pashtuns by the Durand Line”.

By the way, you mentioned the Turkic attacks of Mahmud Ghaznavi. Gandhara’s Raja Jaipal allied himself with its eastern neighbors not based on religion or ethnicity, but on purely military-defence lines. And why should he have not when a looting invader is threatening to destroy his kingdom.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

^^you are wrong about afghan, once again, because even today it used for pashtuns as an ethnical sense. I ahve seen even citizens of afghanistan call pashtuns ethnic afghans (not even the khorasani types), check in a dictionary, it mentions it as afghans. Natural boundaries, I doubt it. The western border is a joke, created to keep the pashtuns divided, the eastern well it seems Punjabis and sindhis on both side are happy about it. There really is no pakistani identity, more like a confederation bounded by Islam, thats all there was and that it was intended to be. I justdon't see the point of such articles, when in reality Islam is all that is similar between the ethnic groups. The worry should be creating an atmosphere which leads to harmony between ethnic groups, bringing democracy, etc.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

Heck we should give Nobel Prize on "ethonology" (from ethonol) to all these Afghan-wanna-bees bumble-bees.

People who don't know what side of the border they are, and what nationality they belong to, and whose passport they use, and the domicile they carry. It all depends on what side of the bed they get up (if they have a bed to sleep on!).

Nazir Akbar Abadi said it well:

Muzakkar kay leaay "He", or Moannas kay leeay "She",
Hazarate Mukhannas na "He-oon" main, na "She-oon" main.

Translation: English language use He for male, and she for fe.... However these Kabuli Kommies are neither Pakistani nor Afghanis.

So Baba Sahib! Please concentrate on rebuilding Kabul instead of rioting against the occupation forces, and let us Pakistanis live our lives. We will send you food, and fuel, so that you can use the "transit treaty" to do smuggling into Pakistan. This indeed is a sad "identity-less" life of Kabuli Kommies.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

I don't know what your problems is honestly, it was a discussion on pakistani identity and everytime I properly and correctly claim this fact you have your panties in a bunch. The only one with an identity crisis is you my friend. For 58 years you have tried to seperate yourself from India, even though deep down inside you aware that other than religion there is nothing that binds Pakistan together. Once agin stop calling me a commie, my relatives fought aginast them in the 80's while you were worshipping the corrupt pakistani army (not that afghan government is any better). So kindly stop generalzing em and making sweeping statements.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

Urdu & Hindi almost the same language?? :rotfl: maybe the basics..

Re: Pakistani Identity?

People who don't know their own identity Afghan-Pushtoon-Pakhtoon, Hazari, Tajiki, Uzbeki, Shiati, Sunnati, Maulvati etc. etc. should never talk about some else's identity.

Kabuli Kommies must use their precious brain cells should be used to figure out who they are first.

As I said, Pakistani identity is way beyond simple yet burned-out bombed-out minds of Kabuli Kommies.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

you can't counteract an argument so you resort to personal insults. I don't know how everyone else tolerates you. I am seriously surprised.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

Look! we in Pakistan are trying hard to keep our heads above the shark infested waters.

For the last 60 d@mn years, Kabuli Kommies have raised so much noise, so much $tupid comments, that our patience is wearing thin.

Pakistan has given to Kabul nothing but the best it could in the given circumstances. What do we get in return? Name calling, slander, threats, and you name it.

Pakistan's ID is a small issue (if it is in fact an issue) that becomes very big in the tiny brain compartments of Kabulis.

I wish Kabulis talk about development, roads, infrastructure, and how could we improve it. Now that will put money in the pocket and food on the table. Everyting else is Kabuli $hite.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

Thats upto whoever, now tell me why are lecturing people in this thread, which is tlaking "pakistani identity"? Seriously, and what is your obsession with kabulis and commies? Did a kabuli girl give you a cold shoulder?lolllll

Re: Pakistani Identity?

This is not correct. Claiming racial, cultural, and geographical continuity from a dead civilization ( that didn't evolve and did't leave us any heir immediate or later) of a bygone age would be too much an overstretching of imagination. People don't have the remotest feelings of affiliation with that civilization or any idea of which, how, and when a cultural practice did they inherit from it or which present tribe desended from Indus Valley people.

It wasn't live in the memories of the hundreds of successive generations following its decay and still people didn't care about it. It wasn't like Sinic or Persian civilizations ever "alive" in the memories, acts, culture, society, and collective consciousness of successive generations with no intermediate or later link lost.

So is true of Sythian, Greco-Budhist, and other civilizations you've mentioned which didn't leave any deeper imprints on the lives of the people. Otherwise, one should be able to describe the sequence of evolutionary or revolutionary steps through which Indus Valley Civilization transformed into Pakistani Identity. (The word Pakistan itself is an acronym meaning Punjab, Afghania, KashmIr, Sindh, and Baluchistan and means nothing in terms of ethnicity and culture). One should also be able to find evolutionary connections between Indus Valley Civilization and Ghandhara Civilizations (and the other civilizations you mention) as how an earlier civilization passed its heritage to a later civilization, which ultimately culminated into Pakistani Civilization. (Gandhara Civilization flourished in Peshawar Valley not Indus Valley...).

One should also then be able to answer the question that if we are claiming such a long past for Pakistan, then why a common language and a homogeneous culture and ethnicity (or even a core ethnicity), couldn't be evolved over such a long period of independent existence.?

Which common heritage was passed to us from the LONG PAST of Pakistan in music, folklore, poetry, history, sculpting, painting, etc. that we own and share all?

When I listen to Punjabi, or Sindhi, or Urdu-Hindi music, I don't consider it my own, neither can I arouse a sense of affinity to it nor can I understand it, although I enjoy it. Similarly, Iqbal, Faiz, Sachal Sarmast, Bullai Shah, etc. are foreign to me. I don't own them. I only own those with whom I share culture, language, territory, and past. This doesn't mean I don't want to interact with others but I want to have my own cultural space.

As for cultural practices inherited from Indus Valley Civilization, societies have borrowed cultural practices/technologies from each other throughout history. That doesn't mean any ancestral link. If so, we should claim a link to Western Civilization.

River Tigris-Arafat also flow through Turkey. That doesn't mean Turks and Iraqis are the same people and have to live together in the same state.

Re: Pakistani Identity?

What I want to say is the past for Pakistani Identity cannot be extended beyond 1940, or 1930, or let us say 1905.

When I say there was no geopolitical continuity that culminated into Pakistan, by that I mean, there was no sovereign state or substate or country, at any stage of history, in the region that constitutes Pakistan now with the same name or a different name of which Pakistan can claim to be a heir. Look at China. It was declared a republic in 1912 doing away with its imperial past but that was a transformation of the same geoplolitical entity (a territory with a politically organized society or territory with a society actively struggling for political sovereignty....).

Even a geopolitical past is not necessary for an identity to come into being.

Cultural Continuity is the most powerful driving force in such case. By cultural continuity I mean the collective consciousness of a people whereby they think that they eternally lived together in the same territory, practiced the same culture, upheld the same set of values, spoke the same language, and shared a common history.

This factor of immortality is very important in cultural continuity i.e. in cultural continuity, a community has the belief/conviction/illusion that it was culturally homogeneous, united, and integrated since time immemorial.

How can Baluchis and Punjabis imagine that both practiced the same culture since an infinite point in the past?

Likewise, civilizational and ethnic continuities cannot be claimed for Pakistan. We cannot identify a single ethnicity in history in the region that now constitutes Pakistan of which the present Baluchis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, and Punjabis are the common descendents. Every community has a distinct ethnic past and origin.

Pakistan is a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multinational country.

Pakistani identity is only a political identity meaning that different communities have agreed to live in the same territory under a contract that garauntee their individualities and their cultural, political, and economic rights in a deocratic manner and under a federal set up.

Re: Pakistani Identity?


Heck you go ahead and extend it to 1947. If you want to rob us form our heritage before that, it is just fine. We have dealt with Afghan Barda Farosh (Kidnappers) and smugglers before.

National identity is a virtual term held near and dear by the dying group of people. As they don't have a good present, they are dying like roaches, they are occupied by NATO and US troops, so these Kabuli Kommies are tyring to hang on the 10,000 years of history. While doing so they have embarked on a cycle of death and destruction within the country as well as outside.

Look what you Kabulis did to your own identity in Bamiyan. You guys simply blew it to pieces, hahahah. This is what these tribals do whose so called identity extends beyond Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ!

Re: Pakistani Identity?

so you mean pakistan is a failed country and has no legitimacy…because USSR is a FAILURE!

i was being optimistic, i put USA as an example because though pakistan is still young i think it’s possible to give pakistan a mythical identity, based on unifying islam in south asia, unifying urdu language, and not ignorign that people from all acrross the country are living together in the biggest melting pot city, and economical heart of pakistan: karachi!

i think if pakistani give it a try, it’s possible to build a strong pakistani identity, but a mythical identity has yet to be invented, and people have to work harder on it, because s far opposing indian or afghan idendity for ever is pointless ans self destructive, only blind people can not see that punjabi/mohajir are like indians or that pashtoon are like afghans…the blindest being the those who don’t want to see (a mask in the eyes help of course)

don’t forget there was no USA at the begining, and don’t idealise USA so much, people there are not that mixxed! whites live with whites, black with black…and yellow with yellow people, one of my friends experienced the racism of USA recently,and bitterly.
they are just giving a united image to the world, and to its people, their binding value is $$…
maybe pakistan should create another currency than rupees (indain:rolleyes:) and try to make people proud of their takeoff economy!

Re: Pakistani Identity?

who are you talking to? there is no one from the country named afghanistan there !
before blaming others, sweep the dirt in front of your door, y=re you proud of your pakistani identity? or is it a shame for you? because you talk only about how bad are afghan, so that's just an excuse no to address the point of the thread: pakistani identity!
i'm a foreigner still, but i'm more ready to try to find solutions and try to giev pakistani identity a meaning and a pride!
are you so shamefull to be pakistani you can't give it a try?