This is an important discussion. Please participate in a positive manner and give your opinion about the following questions/points.
**Which identity Pakistan has? **
(1) Central Asian,
(2) South Asian,
(3) Central-South Asian
What are the most important elements of Pakistani identity?
(1) Islam,
(2)Urdu-Hindi,
(3)Native Cultures, ethnicities, history and languages i.e. Punjabi, Baluchi, Pashto, Sindhi etc.,
(4) All of the above three…
**Which elements should Pakistanis place more emphasis on to distinguis themselves from Indians and construct/consolidate their unique identity? **
(1) Islam,
(2)Urdu-Hindi,
(3)Native Cultures!
**Can Pakistani identity be strengthened by disassociating from India, in the sense of culture, and establishing strong relationships with Muslim countries in Central Asia and Middle East? **
Can a Pakistani identity be constructed/consolidated without genuine federal set-up and democracy?
Please be realitic and objective while giving your replies!
(1) Central Asian,
(2) South Asian,
(3) Central-South Asian
(3), including Persia and the Middle East.
What are the most important elements of Pakistani identity?
(1) Islam,
(2)Urdu-Hindi,
(3)Native Cultures, ethnicities, history and languages i.e. Punjabi, Baluchi, Pashto, Sindhi etc.,
(4) All of the above three...
(4). Pakistan like any home represents its people, with 155million pakis diverging viewpoints will at times create diversity and sometimes conflicts.
*Which elements should Pakistanis place more emphasis on to distinguis themselves from Indians and construct/consolidate their unique identity? *
(1) Islam,
(2)Urdu-Hindi,
(3)Native Cultures!
Why should we distinguish ourselves? why this insecurity? Why do we have to separate ourselves from our roots, neighbours most importantly history.
*Can Pakistani identity be strengthened by disassociating from India, in the sense of culture, and establishing strong relationships with Muslim countries in Central Asia and Middle East? *
Not neccessarily. Common sense and history dictates a good neighbour is always a blessing.
Can a Pakistani identity be constructed/consolidated without genuine federal set-up and democracy?
No. Govt must represent the ppl in a genuine manner with a sense of participation, responsibility and freedom.
Please be realitic and objective while giving your replies!
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Pakistan was set by the union of different states. Their combined identity is Pakistans identity. For too long we have tried to Urdu-ize this identity, and that was clearly wrong.
Regardless of these shameless pro-Urdu policies, Pakistan remains a place that allows different states to prosper while providing a good and strong security umbrella against the tribal anarchists.
Case in point:
Balochis in Iran are treated much worse comapred to Pakistan. Even though per capita income in Iran is much higher than Pakistan.
Pushtoons are treated much better in Pakistan compared to what they ever got in dirt poor, basket case Southern Afghanistan.
Sh. Mujib was a leader (even under arrest some times) in Pakistan. As soon as he got his sonar Bangla (golden Bengal), his Sonaris and Bengalis put him, his kids, his grand kids, elders, women in a meat grinder and BBQed hamburgers.
The day Iranian Balochis will be treated better in Iran, Pushtoons in Kandhar will be richer and more powerful, and Bengalis will accept their crimes against Sh. Mujib and so many other Pakistanis, I'll accept the issues with Pakistan.
Until that fine day, Pakistan PaindaBaad, Pak Army ZindaBaad.
fartguru, Do you mean majority of Pakistanis have South Asian culture, ethnicity, and territorial affiliations but Middle Eastern religion?
Don't you think there is a wish in many Pakistanis to be disassociated from Hindustan and have an independent identity for themselves? What are the reasons for this desire? Do you consider this wish for a separate identity a genuine wish or a false desire induced by state-propaganda (because the establishment and the allied classes like Mullahs and fudals want to control people and resources)? Can the feelings of peaceful co-existence with neighbours be inculcated without major changes in state ideology and system's structure?
Pakistan is unique because of its geography and is racially-culturally-linguistically a blend of South Asian, Central Asian, and Middle Eastern elements being at its crossroads. This unique blend makes the Pakistani identity distinct from others...not to mention its different history.
Pakistan is a federation of different ethnic groups and the following commonalities between these ethnic groups defines the Pakistani nationhood:
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. are linguistically an Indo-Iranian people.
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a common history/heritage such as Harappans, Aryans, Greeks, Persians, Scythians, Kushans, Hephthalites, Arabs, Turks, Mughals, etc.
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. are mostly Caucasoid by race with several variations (mixed with other races).
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a common geography and economy based around Indus river and its tributaries.
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a culture (with variations) derived from a blend of Indo-Iranian and Islamic roots.
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a common religion as Muslims.
These combined six aspects of commonalities makes Pakistani identity distinct from its neighbors. Being distinct does not mean we have to be enemies with our neighbors....neighborly friendship is essential for any country's prosperity. It is unfortunate that one of its neighbor has hegemonic designs on Pakistan which is manipulated by Pakistan's ruling elite.
By the way, this Pakistani federation is at high risk of harm because of Urdu-Hindi (Indian-Muhajir) cultural invasion, inequitable distribution of resources/wealth, feudalist-mullahist-military control of the masses, and an unfair British-colonialist system that still prevails in the country.
Don't you think there is a wish in many Pakistanis to be disassociated from Hindustan and have an independent identity for themselves? What are the reasons for this desire? Do you consider this wish for a separate identity a genuine wish or a false desire induced by state-propaganda (because the establishment and the allied classes like Mullahs and fudals want to control people and resources)? Can the feelings of peaceful co-existence with neighbours be inculcated without major changes in state ideology and system's structure?
Religion has no boudaries, it may have originated in Hijaz but same message sent earlier was in a different region, and do we know whether it was also sent to the sub-continent. Ofcourse, this argument is based on the precept that one has faith in the existence of God and religion. Therefore, majority of Pakistanis may be Muslim, but they are mostly from the Indus belt which shares history, culture and traditions with its adjoining areas.
I agree, there is this desire to be different from our neighbour, much of this has been engineered by establishment think tanks who want to create a separate identity, new and unrealistic. After the breakup of East Pakistan, Pak think (stink) tanks have gone on a turbo drive to create a Pakistani identity at all costs. Bhutto introduced his socialism, kameez shalwar, roti kapra aur makaan and Islam is our religion. Zia then topped it off with his religious indoctrination of everything, changed our history books, either erased or marginalized our ancient history, demonized all other eligious faiths and created a artificial linkage with the Arab world. Now, we have globalization and a barrage of cosumerism translated ad yuppy culture.
Ofcourse we can have a peaceful, friendly neighbour. If anyone has travelled on continental Europe would vouch, u can sometimes cross borders without even realizing the change of frontiers. Imagine, just 50years ago this part of the world suffered the most horrendous wars leaving 70million plus dead. Here we are, unable to sort out our differences, what a shame. And why is that? simply because the military industrial complex on both sides cannot afford to have peace.
Identity of Pakistan: Part of Islamic Nation - ( Khilafah )
Most important elelments: Islam
Disassociation: Only from Kufr
Democracy is man made system - Islam is a complete Deen - Allah tela has already
sent down the Islamic system through Prophet Muhammad (saw)
[quote=LastOfTheDinosaurs]
This is an important discussion. Please participate in a positive manner and give your opinion about the following questions/points.
*Which identity Pakistan has? *
(2) South Asian,
What are the most important elements of Pakistani identity?
(1) Islam,
(2)Urdu-Hindi,
(3)Native Cultures, ethnicities, history and languages i.e. Punjabi, Baluchi, Pashto, Sindhi etc.,
*Which elements should Pakistanis place more emphasis on to distinguis themselves from Indians and construct/consolidate their unique identity? *
** (1) Islam, enough of hindu traditions such as zaat/caste, bride dowry**
(2)Urdu-Hindi,
** (3)Native Cultures! everyone should be proud and happy of his culture: to love the other people one must love himself first, love your cultures, and then you'll love others culture!
if people feel their culture is in danger they will get agressive towards others, because they'll think they are invaders!
**
*Can Pakistani identity be strengthened by disassociating from India, in the sense of culture, and establishing strong relationships with Muslim countries in Central Asia and Middle East? *
NO it is and will be a mistake, pakistani should be sure of their identity, religion and be at peace with their powerfull neighbors, India is developping and could be a good partner in business ! But middle east are not interesting except for oil! and central asia still lags far behind pakistan and india, even central china is not very much developped.
Trade is the most important in worlds economy, and mostly done by sea, so central asia has a limited interest, though the recent building of a train line linking tibet to developped coastal china is bringing enormous hopes for developpement (and tibet loss of identity).
Can a Pakistani identity be constructed/consolidated without genuine federal set-up and democracy?
democracy is not needed, i mean china has a very strong identity and a booming economy, but no democracy.
But federal set up is very needed, i don't believe pakistan can be governed efficiently without a FEDERAL government, meaning each province should have some autonomy, because each province has specific needs and issues. Trying to uniformise forcibly pakistan, wil take too much time, and people willl suffer in btw! gvt should not ignore the ground reality: there are enormous regional differences, and rural/city diversity.
parissenoor vbmenu_register(“postmenu_4140181”, true); “democracy is not needed, i mean china has a very strong identity and a booming economy, but no democracy”
Paris Noor, are you a Pakistani?? From your post you seem clueless about Pakistan. Hindi becoming our identity, are you serious? lol Dont tell me Hindi and Urdu are the same thing, its a disgrace to people like Babay-e-Urdu Maulvi Abdul Haq, who worked so hard on the language, and other countless nasar-nigaars and poets.
Last of the dinos, is there anything you talk about other than Pakistan and its ethnicities! Does it matter what we culture or ethnicity we belong to yar? We are Pakistanis, not Indians, and I like it the way it is. In the fast changing world, globalism will just eat away any 'remnents' of past culture we have.
Don't you think there is a wish in many Pakistanis to be disassociated from Hindustan and have an independent identity for themselves? What are the reasons for this desire? Do you consider this wish for a separate identity a genuine wish or a false desire induced by state-propaganda (because the establishment and the allied classes like Mullahs and fudals want to control people and resources)? Can the feelings of peaceful co-existence with neighbours be inculcated without major changes in state ideology and system's structure?
Even though you are asking this from farty but I'd jump in anyway.
Even siblings born in the same household, and to the same set of parents try to develop their separate ID. It is only natural.
Struggle for individual ID or national ID card has nothing to do with peaceful co-existance with Tom Dick or Harry. However it has everything to do with the way others will treat you and the way you want to get treated.
Many Pashtoons included yourself are totally confused about their ID. Sometimes they are Pashtoons, sometimes Afghans, and even other times you may be talking about Iranian ancestory. What is the true source of that confusion? Is that kabluli-ism or Kommi-ism?
Many Pashtoons included yourself are totally confused about their ID. Sometimes they are Pashtoons, sometimes Afghans, and even other times you may be talking about Iranian ancestory. What is the true source of that confusion? Is that kabluli-ism or Kommi-ism?
There are two meanings associated with the term; one denoting citizenship and the other ethnicity...And it is an ancient term mentioned in Iranian stone inscriptions and by Huen TSong, the chinese pilgrimage to Bhudist shrines in Peshawar Valley...
The source of confusion seems to be Ranjit Singhism mixed with *Islamism *(Isamabad)...
antioblwe are very aware of our history, unforetunately your ignorance has once again forced to write such a sweeping remark. Iranian ancestry means those groups that decended from iranian tribes (i.e. sakas, medes, etc) and/or speaks an iranian language. Iranian is another way of saying aryan,and it has nothing to do with the present day country. Iranic is the proper term, atleast for clarification. Quite frankly, I really don't care much for iran or pan-iranism. The afghan part lostofdinosaurs ror covered perfectly.
Iranian is the same word as Aryan, so the present-day country of Iran does not have a monopoly on this proto-ethnic and historic terminology. The people of Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, western Turkey, northern Iraq, northwest India, and parts of Central Asia are descended from ancient Iranians/Aryans... this includes their language, culture, and race. Of course those ancient Aryans/Iranians were mixed with other peoples/races over time (there is no pure Aryan/Iranian), but they have by large retained their unique traits through the process of evolution.
Pashtuns share a mostly common heritage with the rest of Pakistanis which includes Harappans, Aryans, Persians, Greeks, Scythians, Parthians, Kushans, Hephthalies, Arabs, Turks, and Mongols.
The word Afghan in the past might have meant Pashtun but that meaning evolved to another one. Today, an Afghan is defined as only a citizen of present-day Afghanistan regardless of ethnicity. There are countless other examples on how a word's meaning evolves to a different one over time. So today a Pashtun can be a Pakistani or an Afghan depending on which country he resides.
A number of geographical and geological sources mention Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa to be parts of Iranian plateau and Punjab-Sindh eastern extensions of the Gangetic Plain. Territorially and geopolitically speaking, Pakistan never existed in the present form or any other form in history before...(although Itezaz Ahsan and others now claim a distinct history...)..
The Indus Civilization was an isolated civilization in time that didn't pass its heritage or the memories of its existence and achievements to any community in the present Pakistan. People didn't know of it until it was discovered in the beginning of 20th Century. It was not like Egyptian or Babilonian or Persian or Sinic civilzations, which successive generations owned or were aware of. Claiming continuity from Indus Civilization would therefore be absolutely wrong...
We don't see any GEOPOLITICAL, CULTURAL, CIVILIZATIONAL, or ETHNIC Continuity in space-time culminating or mutating into Pakistan identity. China is a continuity in every sense one can imagine, geopoltical, cultural, civilizational, and ethnical. That is why it is probably the profoundest and the most cohesive identity in the world. (And so is Iran also. In the case of Hindustan, geopolitical and ethnic conituity was temporarily disrupted again and again but cultural-civilizational continuity couldn't be broken at any point of time).
How can we say that Baluchis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, and Punjabis, through centuries and milinia of their existence and struggle, worked towards a common goal or destiny, i.e. Pakistani identity? There is no common, indegenous, pure, homegrown Pakistani culture that any present or predecessor ethnicity of Pakistan created and passed onto us (as successors). Different ethnicities have distinct histories, and cultures most of the time transcending borders and with origin and centers of gravity else where.
How can we then claim a historical continuity and such a long past for Pakistan?
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and is racially-culturally-linguistically a **blend **of South Asian, Central Asian, and Middle Eastern elements being at its crossroads. This unique blend makes the Pakistani identity distinct from others...not to mention its different history...
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"Blend" would be an overstatement...Isn't it true the elements simply come together without significant blending such that various distinctions are still visible/noticeable and set various communities apart...?
Moreover, how can we say that Pakistan has a different history? Cannot we say that Pakistan was just a battle ground for empires in Iran-Central Asia and Hindustan sometimes controlled by empires based in Iran-Central Asia and sometimes in Hindustan. When was it an independent geopolitical and cultural entity to make a history of its own? The fact is, you cannot separate its history from history of Hindustan or Iran-Central Asia. Whatever, its geopolitical status might have been, culturally, civilizationally, and ethnically, it was partially linked to the east and partially to the west.
When Mahmood of Ghazna attacked Hindustan, Raja Jaipal and Ananpal received support from almost all other princely states in Hindustan on religious (and ethnic, and cultural may be) grounds.
Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. are linguistically an Indo-Iranian people.
Indo-Iranian is a very abstract and broad criterian very up in the classification hierachy and therefore weak to tie people together. For nationhood, more concrete binding factors like common language, race, and values are required...
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Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a common history/heritage such as Harappans, Aryans, Greeks, Persians, Scythians, Kushans, Hephthalites, Arabs, Turks, Mughals, etc.
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Again very general classification criteria...Some of the societies/civilizations, e.g. Harrapans, were species of their own kind that were born, existed for a while, and then perished without passing their attributes/heritage to any later ethnicity or generation...
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Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. are mostly Caucasoid by race with several variations (mixed with other races).
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Again very broad/general criteria not suitable for defining a nationhood...
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Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a common geography and economy based around Indus river and its tributaries.
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What about Nile or Oxus? Rivers cannot integrate people together into a nation...more concrete things are required e.g. common or the myth of common ancestry, language, values, etc. Geographically, Punjab or Sindh have more in common with Gangetic plain than with Baluchistan, for example...
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Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a culture (with variations) derived from a blend of Indo-Iranian and Islamic roots...
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I don't think they have a common culture. Languages being the most importants component of culture are different and so are social structures, values, norms, and other aspects of material and ideological cultures...
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Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochs, etc. share a common religion as Muslims.
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Sharing a religion doesn't mean one has to live with another person in the same country...
Pashtuns share a mostly common heritage with the rest of Pakistanis which includes Harappans, Aryans, Persians, Greeks, Scythians, Parthians, Kushans, Hephthalies, Arabs, Turks, and Mongols.
It is debatable.
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The word Afghan in the past might have meant Pashtun but that meaning evolved to another one. Today, an Afghan is defined as only a citizen of present-day Afghanistan regardless of ethnicity. There are countless other examples on how a word's meaning evolves to a different one over time. So today a Pashtun can be a Pakistani or an Afghan depending on which country he resides.
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Rather the word is used in two senses now; in strict sense, it means a Pashtun; in loose sense it means an inhabitant of Afghanistan. Uzbakistan has a number of ethnicities, e.g. Tajaks, Kazaks, Karghaiz, etc.,. So to the outside world Uzbak would be an appellation for every inhabitant of Uzbakistan but within Uzbakistan, it will mean an "ethnic Uzbak"(a specific ethnicity). So is true for Turkey, Russia, and a number of other cases.
When used in political sense, it means citizen of Afghanistan but when used in ethnic sense, it means a Pashtun.
democracy is not needed, i mean china has a very strong identity and a booming economy, but no democracy.
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Chinese example would be unappropriate. Chinses are a very ancient nation. The first Chinese Empire started in 1500 BC and China existed, in the form of an empire, till as late as 1912 when it was decalred a republic.
:nono: