[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
** Salaam
Spock, if you are a muslim then my discussion with you would be on the obedience towards Allah and the Islamic viewpoint of women. But if you are a non muslim then this discussion will be fruitless.
If you are a muslim then we can easily agree to the fact that the Quran and sunnah are the basis from which we take our views and not the mind as that would be worshipping our intellect and desires rather than Allah (swt).
R U A MUSLIM?
[This message has been edited by Khilafah1422 (edited August 05, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Wasalaam...
Well, you believe that only your views are in accordance with Islam, and all of us are just plain idiots, who know nothing about Islam. This is why I choose to avoid discussion with Hizb members, or supporters of the Khalifah, as whenever one points out something to them, they say that 'youre kaffar' or 'your views are against Islam'.
Islam has given rights to women, like no other religion, and I cannot believe that we fail to realize that in this day and age. A woman is also Allah's creation. One of the reasons why the western world has left us far far behind is that their women also share the work load with their men, and hence, they have better performance.
I think there is a difference in the role of women generally and the role of women in ruling.
I have heard a sahih Bukhari hadeeth speak about how a woman should not rule and i take that as evidence.
Spock i think from what i read that he asked if you were Muslim because he said from the Sunnah it says that women should not be in ruling and we as Muslims should follow a Sahih hadeeth. Maybe the way it was put across could have been better.
I haven't heard about Sheeba so if you could elaborate then that would be good. Also it is important to understand the Tafsir because many can follow something based just on what they have read, whilst scholars have assessed what the Ayats actually mean and whether something is an order or request for example.
Spock as for women i agree with you. Women are an asset. As i said there is a particular evidence related to a woman ruling so it should be followed. As for women not working and other such things this wrong. Aisha(ra)for example was one of the top lawyers of her time. Unfortunately Pakistan for example has picked up a lot of corrupt traits from when we were with the Hindus and today women are seen as little more than a housewife who should not work. This attitude is wrong and cultural not Islamic. We mistake a lot of things for Islamic when in reality they are culture like forced marriages for example.
Women are an asset and can be very useful working alongside men but for ruling there is a particular evidence which points to how women should not be in ruling and it is sahih so as Muslims we should follow it.
Allah knows better than us and it is Kufr to deny the Quran and his Sunnah so as Muslims we should be very careful what we disagree with.
PyariCgudia mentioned something about women being just as capable. They probably are. From what i know there isn't a reason given why women shouldn't rule, just like Allah doesn't tell us why we pray 2 rather than 4 rakat Fajr. There is no reason. We just follow it as it is legitimate eveidence.
Also with regards to following hadeeth. Allahs Sunnah is a legitimate reference point and hadeeth that are sahih are to be taken as evidence so regardless of whether women are capable or not, in ruling it is commanded that a woman shouldn't rule.
[quote]
Originally posted by Spock:
** Wasalaam...
Well, you believe that only your views are in accordance with Islam, and all of us are just plain idiots, who know nothing about Islam. This is why I choose to avoid discussion with Hizb members, or supporters of the Khalifah, as whenever one points out something to them, they say that 'youre kaffar' or 'your views are against Islam'.
Islam has given rights to women, like no other religion, and I cannot believe that we fail to realize that in this day and age. A woman is also Allah's creation. One of the reasons why the western world has left us far far behind is that their women also share the work load with their men, and hence, they have better performance.**
[/quote]
Salaam
Sorry if i have offended you.It was not my niyya (intention). I just wanted to know on what basis can i convince you that Islam has defined a detailed government structure and a detailed system for life.
You are my brother and inshAllah will always be my brother. I do not say that all other views are invalid rather i say that if you have an opinion then for it to be a valid opinion it must be backed up via the Quran and Sunnah. As an example, if a person said that instead of fasting 30 days in ramadhan we must fast 15, then for me to accept it i would ask for evidences from the Quran and sunnah. If a valid daleel (evidence) is given then i would consider it Islamic, even if it differed with my opinion. In islam, there are areas where we are allowed to have our opinions.
The point being of this discussion is to highlight that when the muslims detach thier deen from lifes affairs, a decline occurs and this is apparent today. To reverse this, islam needs to be comprehensiely applied in lifes affairs.
What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Khilafah1422 (edited August 07, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by OldLahori:
***Khalifa says in a post above: if you read my answer to your question before, it is answered. But in simple, in Islam there is no such concept as minority as all shia, sunni, hindu, christian, jew are seen as citizens of the Islamic state and the laws are applied equally upon them all. In fact it was this non recognition of the minority concept that brought alot of people into Islam as they were treated the same way as the muslims.*
Khalifa, I donot know about the rest of your assertions but your assertion about minorities in Islamic countries is just downright false. I quote one paragraph from the book by L.M. Alphonse " Triumph over Discrimination: The Life story of Farhang Mehr". (page 11). ISBN 0-9709937-0-6
"In accordance with Islam, citizens of Iran are still divided into two groups: Muslims (known as Momen) and Non-Muslims (kafer). Non-Muslims are divided into two more groups: Zimmi and Harbi." Zimmi or dhimmis are the Ahle-kittab (jews, christians, Zorastrians) and the Harbi are the panthesitic religions like Bhuddishts and hindus. The book goes on to say " .. gave Muslims the freedom to enjoy every privilige and to hold any and all positions in society. The Harbi are essentially social non-entities, but the Zimmis are allowed to practice their own religion, though they must pay "Jizya", and are forbidden from holding a high political, judicial, or military positions. They were not allowed to touch food in the market places, or to even go to market on rainy days, because it was believed that they were "najiss," or dirty, and they would contaminate what they touched. If a muslim and a non-muslim lived on the same street, the non-muslims entryway could not be as high as the Muslim's. If a Zorastrian converted to Islam, all assets of the deceased parent would go to the newly converted person, regardless of the number or situations of siblings, regardless of the wishes of the deceased." Anyway he goes on to illustrate some other differences.
In India, the Hanafi fiqha eventually allowed hindus to be recogonised as Dhimmis although the other three fiqha have never accepted that and hindus are still classified as Harbi.
So please do not falsely claim that minorites and muslims are the same under your concept of Sharia. That is a lie. There is just too many sources showing otherwise.
And so you can pigeon hole me: I consider myself a muslim. I am an American and proud of it. However, feel free to call me a kafir, or a hindi, or a jew or etc. whatever makes you comfortable.
[This message has been edited by OldLahori (edited August 06, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Iran does not apply Islam comprehensively in governemtn hence it would be incorrect to use this example.
[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
** Iran does not apply Islam comprehensively in governemtn hence it would be incorrect to use this example.
**
[/quote]
I recognise that your argument is going to be that there is no Islamic Government in existence and has not been in existence since the Saahi Khalifas etc. etc. So I will not even go to the history of various Muslim empires and their treatment of minorites, but for your own benefit look it up. More to the point, the basis of 'Dhimma' originates from the treaty with the jews of the Oasis Khaybar. The entire treatment meted out to the defeated minorities was eventually based upon that treaty, and it was executed by the Prophet himself. Could you please list what the conditions of that treaty were on which the treatment of minorities is based upon in the various muslim countries? Since you are a minority in UK, why not ask the UK government to apply the rules of that treaty as accorded to a minority?
There is simply too much history available to ignore facts.
[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
** Salaam
Sorry if i have offended you.It was not my niyya (intention). I just wanted to know on what basis can i convince you that Islam has defined a detailed government structure and a detailed system for life.
You are my brother and inshAllah will always be my brother. I do not say that all other views are invalid rather i say that if you have an opinion then for it to be a valid opinion it must be backed up via the Quran and Sunnah. As an example, if a person said that instead of fasting 30 days in ramadhan we must fast 15, then for me to accept it i would ask for evidences from the Quran and sunnah. If a valid daleel (evidence) is given then i would consider it Islamic, even if it differed with my opinion. In islam, there are areas where we are allowed to have our opinions.
The point being of this discussion is to highlight that when the muslims detach thier deen from lifes affairs, a decline occurs and this is apparent today. To reverse this, islam needs to be comprehensiely applied in lifes affairs.
What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Khilafah1422 (edited August 07, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Salaam Brother, and thank you very much for your kind reply. I wasnt accusing you directly, as I have found you to be a nice person, and part of the reason I will view your posts with more interest now is the fact that you are a kind person.
My question is this. If the women are also Allah's creation, and they can (on particular occasions) prove that they can govern better than a man, then why shouldnt we let them try it? I would be really interested in your opinions about this.
Btw, I wasnt offended by your comments, and would await your reply with great interest.
[quote]
Originally posted by OldLahori:
** I recognise that your argument is going to be that there is no Islamic Government in existence and has not been in existence since the Saahi Khalifas etc. etc. So I will not even go to the history of various Muslim empires and their treatment of minorites, but for your own benefit look it up. More to the point, the basis of 'Dhimma' originates from the treaty with the jews of the Oasis Khaybar. The entire treatment meted out to the defeated minorities was eventually based upon that treaty, and it was executed by the Prophet himself. Could you please list what the conditions of that treaty were on which the treatment of minorities is based upon in the various muslim countries? Since you are a minority in UK, why not ask the UK government to apply the rules of that treaty as accorded to a minority?
There is simply too much history available to ignore facts. **
[/quote]
I will look into the khaybar treaty to answer your question. But the statement regarding the treatment of non muslims, yes i admit that during the Islamic state, people were oppressed, even muslims were opressed but this only occured when the rulers misapplied Islam. So in one of the posts above one person mentioned the rape of the christians. If one was to understand the islamic viewpoint towards Dhimmas (people of covenant), the Prophet (saw) said that, "whoever harms a dhimmi ( the non muslims) is as if he has harmed me" and in another hadith, (paraphrasing) "whoever harms a dhimmi, i will complain againsts him on the day of judgement".Hence we can see that Islam forbids any sort of harm upon people that live under the Islamic state.If in history this occured then the rulers are to blame or the people who committed those acts and not Islam. So we can see that the recent tensions in the islamic world requre the establishment of an islamic state in order to remove any racial tension and if a muslim harms a non muslim then he is punished.
[This message has been edited by Khilafah1422 (edited August 09, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Spock:
** Salaam Brother, and thank you very much for your kind reply. I wasnt accusing you directly, as I have found you to be a nice person, and part of the reason I will view your posts with more interest now is the fact that you are a kind person.
My question is this. If the women are also Allah's creation, and they can (on particular occasions) prove that they can govern better than a man, then why shouldnt we let them try it? I would be really interested in your opinions about this.
Btw, I wasnt offended by your comments, and would await your reply with great interest.**
[/quote]
JazakAllah khair for your question Brother.
The way that any reality needs to be judged is by first understanding the reality and then going back to the Islamic texts (Quran and sunnah) and then see what islam has to say about this reality.
As an example, we know that pork is haraam and the way we know this is not by saying that the pork is dirty it is because we know that Allah (swt) tells us in the Quran that it is forbidden for us to consume this. Another example is that mobile phones have become really popular and alot of people use them. A muslim would always ask himself that am i allowed to use this.So the reality of the mobile phone is understood i.e. that it is used to cimmunicate, and so we know that Islam allows communication and hence we can understand that the utilisation of mobile phones is mubah(permissable). So because Islam has an answer to all of our problems, we must refer back to it for everything and not decide by our minds what should be halaal and what should be haraam. As Allah (swt) says in Surah an Nisa verse 59 "then if you dispute in anything then refer it to Allah and his messenger if you believe in Allah and the last day".
So now when the question is posed that are women allowed to be rulers or are we allowed to mix with women and socialise? Our viewpoint should emanate from Islam. It would be wrong to use my mind to judge and look at the benefits of the question at hand. So i have heard people say that a bit of Alcohol is good for the body and we should be allowed to take atleast a bit. But obviously this answer came from his mind and not from Islam and so we should not accept it.
InshAllah,i would like to hear your comments on the above. May Allah reward you.
[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
** JazakAllah khair for your question Brother.
The way that any reality needs to be judged is by first understanding the reality and then going back to the Islamic texts (Quran and sunnah) and then see what islam has to say about this reality.
As an example, we know that pork is haraam and the way we know this is not by saying that the pork is dirty it is because we know that Allah (swt) tells us in the Quran that it is forbidden for us to consume this. Another example is that mobile phones have become really popular and alot of people use them. A muslim would always ask himself that am i allowed to use this.So the reality of the mobile phone is understood i.e. that it is used to cimmunicate, and so we know that Islam allows communication and hence we can understand that the utilisation of mobile phones is mubah(permissable). So because Islam has an answer to all of our problems, we must refer back to it for everything and not decide by our minds what should be halaal and what should be haraam. As Allah (swt) says in Surah an Nisa verse 59 "then if you dispute in anything then refer it to Allah and his messenger if you believe in Allah and the last day".
So now when the question is posed that are women allowed to be rulers or are we allowed to mix with women and socialise? Our viewpoint should emanate from Islam. It would be wrong to use my mind to judge and look at the benefits of the question at hand. So i have heard people say that a bit of Alcohol is good for the body and we should be allowed to take atleast a bit. But obviously this answer came from his mind and not from Islam and so we should not accept it.
So islam requires that i take my view from the Quran and sunnah. And the only reason why i say benazir bhutto or any other lady should not rule a country is not because they are unable to but only because the Prophet (saw) forbade a lady engaging in this field.If Islam allowed it then i would accept it whole heartedly. So in order for any opinion to be Islamic it must be backed up by an evidence.
InshAllah,i would like to hear my brother's comments on the above.