PAKISTAN WAS ESTABLISHED ON THE PRINCIPAL OF LA ILAHA ILALLAH, MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH. DO YOU THINK THIS HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED.PLEASE GIVE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM.
SALAAM
No, it has not been established.
Evidence: go and live in Pakistan and you will see for yourself.
“La Illaha Illal Lah, Muhammad ur Rasool ullah” is not a “principal” to create a country … it is the pehla kalma we teach to our children and the core of our faith.
If you wish to discuss the core principles which were espoused by the founders of Pakistan, and whether the nation deviated from those core principles (justice, liberty to practice religion, democracy etc) or not, a better place is “Pakistan Affairs” forum.
On the other hand, if you wish to discuss the essential elements of an Islamic state, please go right ahead.
If you want to present a case, that Pakistanis, generally and as a nation, are bad muslims, feel free to share your views. Don’t forget to present credible evidence too.
[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
**PAKISTAN WAS ESTABLISHED ON THE PRINCIPAL OF LA ILAHA ILALLAH, MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH. DO YOU THINK THIS HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED.PLEASE GIVE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM.
SALAAM**
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.. the thing lacking most among is tolerance.. we all the time are trying to prove that we r better muslims than others and in process start hate.. first we need to establish a a system that guarantees social justice since that is the essence of Islamic system.. applying directly religious system without justice can have very dangerous effects..
..plus dont use CAPS its not polite..
I dont understand how do we find time to criticize others when there is so little time left to do good deeds for the sake of our own salvation. However, pointing out and stopping "unislamic" activities and attitudes is not spreading hatred provided it is being done sensibly.
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
** .. the thing lacking most among is tolerance.. we all the time are trying to prove that we r better muslims than others and in process start hate.. first we need to establish a a system that guarantees social justice since that is the essence of Islamic system.. applying directly religious system without justice can have very dangerous effects..
..plus dont use CAPS its not polite..**
[/quote]
**Creation Of Pakistan **
Pakistan was created in order to establish an economically, socially and culturally independent homeland for the large muslim minority in India. At the time of Pakistan’s creation it was the one country in the world with the largest population of muslims.
“Pakistan ka mathlab kyaa? La Ilahaa IllAllah!”
**The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ** http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/
Enforcement of Shar’iah Act (Act X of 1991)
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/1991/actXof1991.html
Today Pakistan is known as “The Islamic Republic of Pakistan”, which leaves no doubt that this country represents “Islam”.
This has to be discussed here, on this forum
because “Islam” is involved and is being mis-represented.
Please....
Having the largest number of Muslims doesn't make it Islamic. Turkey has a lot of Muslims so according to you that makes it Islamic when women get arrested for wearing hijab and men get thrown from the army if they get caught praying.
You speak about shariah act. Can you honestly tell me that Pakistan is and ever has been ruled by Islam.
Do we implement the system of La Illaha illAllah that Allah has sent down to us or do we work to becoming a country ruled in the same methond as the Americans.
Do we use a system made by man? or do we use a system by who made man?
Please prove to me that Pakistan is Islamic.
For a place to be Islam it has to ruled by Islam and please show me some evidence that it is ruled by Islam because i don't think any pakistani truly thinks Islam is the rule in pakistan.
In reply to you opening comment Pakistan was a reation simply to divide lands up by the British using a concept called divide and conquer because they feared an Islamic uprising. Unfortunately the pakistanis all agreed because they thought they were going to be ruled by Islam but we have never been ruled by Islam.
Yes Pakistan is known as the Islamic republic, thats right known. Doesn't mean it is.
[quote]
Originally posted by Faisal:
"La Illaha Illal Lah, Muhammad ur Rasool ullah" is not a "principal*" to create a country ... it is the pehla kalma we teach to our children and the core of our faith.
*
[/quote]
Is not a principle and its the core of our faith, I see a condradiction here.
[quote]
Originally posted by s_H_e_I_k_H:
Please....
Having the largest number of Muslims doesn't make it Islamic. Turkey has a lot of Muslims so according to you that makes it Islamic when women get arrested for wearing hijab and men get thrown from the army if they get caught praying.
You speak about shariah act. Can you honestly tell me that Pakistan is and ever has been ruled by Islam.
Do we implement the system of La Illaha illAllah that Allah has sent down to us or do we work to becoming a country ruled in the same methond as the Americans.
Do we use a system made by man? or do we use a system by who made man?
Please prove to me that Pakistan is Islamic.
For a place to be Islam it has to ruled by Islam and please show me some evidence that it is ruled by Islam because i don't think any pakistani truly thinks Islam is the rule in pakistan.
In reply to you opening comment Pakistan was a reation simply to divide lands up by the British using a concept called divide and conquer because they feared an Islamic uprising. Unfortunately the pakistanis all agreed because they thought they were going to be ruled by Islam but we have never been ruled by Islam.
Yes Pakistan is known as the Islamic republic, thats right known. Doesn't mean it is.
[/quote]
Brother, you missed this.....
"This has to be discussed here, on this forum because "Islam" is involved and is being mis-represented."
The reason I referred to the Sharia Act is because people on this forum claim that Pakistan and Islam are separate, and that Pakistan related matters should be discussed in the Pakistan Affairs forum and not in the Religion forum.
When Pakistan is known as "The Islamic Republic of Pakistan", it simply means that Pakistan is representing Islam, which is not TRUE!
It is about time that we should accept that Pakistan today IS NOT and "Islamic Republic".
Just read extracts below from Constitution of Pakistan, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and it'll be easy to judge how Islamic our country is.
++++++++++++++++
Chapter 1, Article 45.
The President shall have power to grant pardon, reprieve and respite, and to remit, suspend or commute any sentence passed by any court, tribunal or other authority
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chapter 4, Article 248.
(1) The President, a Governor, the Prime Minister, a Federal Minister, a Minister of State, the Chief Minister and a Provincial Minister shall not he answerable to any court for the exercise of powers and performance of functions of their respective offices or for any act done or purported to be done in the exercise of those powers and performance of those functions:
Provided that nothing in this clause shall be construed as restricting the right of any person to bring appropriate proceedings against the Federation or a Province.
(2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued against the President or a Governor in any court during his term of office.
(3) No process for the arrest or imprisonment of the President or a Governor shall issue from any court during his term of office.
(4) No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the President or a Governor shall be instituted during his term of office in respect of anything done by or not done by him in his personal capacity whether before or after he enters upon his office unless, at least sixty days before the proceedings are instituted, notice in writing has been delivered to him, or sent to him in the manner prescribed by law, stating the nature of the proceedings, the cause of action, the name, description and place of residence of the party by whom the proceedings are to be instituted and the relief which the party claims.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
My Uncle just arrived from Pak, and has been telling me all about how "pious" the Pakistanis are... I myself had many a chance to witness the piety of our great nation. My conclusion... Everyone from the bottom of society to the top are as corrupt and unIslamic as they come.
The question begging to be asked, who are we trying to fool?????
Can you have islam fully being represented whilst the government structure is a republic?
pls reply
Can u explain what u really mean by Islamic state? Islam doesnt force any particular syatem of goverernance but gives guidelines for how form an effective system . The prime reason for that is Islam is a universal religion and it had to spread all over the world. If it was confined to a particular structure it would not had been effective for peopels living in different geographic regions of the world. n Saudia arabia people lived in tribes but in other parts people lived in different structures. Even in Sahaba karam's times the political sructure was always changing and evolving keeping in view the dramatic rise of Islamic civilization. Therefore Govt in the times of Hazrat Abu Bakr was entirely different from Hazrat Umer's or Hazrat Ali's. We make a very stupid assumption when we say shariat should be implemented when we try to actually try to recreate those old times.. only laws of an Islamic country should be according to Quran and Sunnah and not contradict them. An example was taliban's shariat when the courts they established had a look of 1400 years old settings..they even carried old rusted swords! Islam is a major force in the world today and there are several Islamic countries and have their own political structures and some have laws which are closer to Islam than others.
In Pakistan there is a wide vacuum of social justice. Implementing directly shariat without justice would result in massive hardship on poor people. One example is the implementation of blasphemy law without taking precautions that it can be used to take unfortunate turn . Most of the people who were blamed were never given chance to prove their innocence and once blamed could never take out that stigma from there lives even they were innocents. Zia cut off poor peoples hands but never touched rich people. Onecan see that only 11 hands were cut in first 400 years of Islamic history since hadd conditions were very difficult to fulfill.. Hazrat Umer didnt used hadd for years as there was a famine and people under hunger cant be prosecuted under hadd!
Degas, what a beautiful explanation!!!
You're 100% right. People have this misconception that sharia is a set of laws that can be implemented anywhere at any time, without any changes, and it'll turn a society into a heaven-bound one.
Many of the Laws in Pakistan are perfectly Islamic. Some are not. The problem isn't really in the rules though, its in the implementation - the justice factor as Degas says.
If you're going to have these laws, then you need to have the right courts to go along with it, and CURRENT TECHNOLOGY must be implemented to improve the justice.
for example, (i love this example, because no one can come up with an answer on this) - you need 4 witnesses to prove an adultery case or a repeated confession from the adulterer, in order to carry out the punishment.
there is debate whether stoning is even islamic or not - which means that the muslim ummah as a whole needs to establish BEYOND DOUBT what the punishment needs to be.
If there is another way to prove that adultery has or has not taken place - BEYOND DOUBT - why can't these ways be used? ex. a. forensics
b. medical examinations by doctors for bruising to prove there was a rape, not adultery.
c. video tape, audio tape recording of act taking place.
I dont think using this modern technology as evidence would be unIslamic at all. But are the muslim clerics listening?
- examination of jurisdictions held in times of the golden age of Islam - to see if we can learn from the actions in the past and ADAPT this knowledge to the present times.
I dont see any of this being done in ANY muslims populated country. I dont see why people like you guys put so much heat on Pakistan for not being a true Islamic state, when there is NO country that has managed to do it since centuries and centuries ago.
I think what is more important for us is that we each attend to our own selves and make sure we keep on the right path and do the right things. I dont think true believers have anything to fear - they dont even fear the injustice they may be dealt by some idiots who think they know Islam (like Gen. Zia).
I personally like to mind my own business and try to improve myself as a muslim and as a good person. Justice needs to be established in every nation, and I dont think ANY present nation has gotten to that point.
Pakistan is not alone in its problems.
wonderful response Degas
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
Can u explain what u really mean by Islamic state? Islam doesnt force any particular syatem of goverernance but gives guidelines for how form an effective system . The prime reason for that is Islam is a universal religion and it had to spread all over the world. If it was confined to a particular structure it would not had been effective for peopels living in different geographic regions of the world. n Saudia arabia people lived in tribes but in other parts people lived in different structures. Even in Sahaba karam's times the political sructure was always changing and evolving keeping in view the dramatic rise of Islamic civilization. Therefore Govt in the times of Hazrat Abu Bakr was entirely different from Hazrat Umer's or Hazrat Ali's. We make a very stupid assumption when we say shariat should be implemented when we try to actually try to recreate those old times.. only laws of an Islamic country should be according to Quran and Sunnah and not contradict them. An example was taliban's shariat when the courts they established had a look of 1400 years old settings..they even carried old rusted swords! Islam is a major force in the world today and there are several Islamic countries and have their own political structures and some have laws which are closer to Islam than others.
In Pakistan there is a wide vacuum of social justice. Implementing directly shariat without justice would result in massive hardship on poor people. One example is the implementation of blasphemy law without taking precautions that it can be used to take unfortunate turn . Most of the people who were blamed were never given chance to prove their innocence and once blamed could never take out that stigma from there lives even they were innocents. Zia cut off poor peoples hands but never touched rich people. Onecan see that only 11 hands were cut in first 400 years of Islamic history since hadd conditions were very difficult to fulfill.. Hazrat Umer didnt used hadd for years as there was a famine and people under hunger cant be prosecuted under hadd!
[/quote]
One of the last ayahs Allah (swt) revealed was in surah al-maidah. In rough translation he says "today i have perfected your deen for you..." and in surah an Nahl verse 89 he says, " we have revealed upon a book in which everything is clearly explained (Kulli shai'). This builds the premise that Allah (swt) has given us full rules concerning things that occur in life. Hence the question begs has Allah(swt) given the muslims a government structure by which rules can be implemented?
Obviously we know that the sunnah of the Prophet (saw) is a practical example of how people should conduct their affairs.Hence, we see that the Prophet was a head of state and he showed us how the Ahkaam of Islam are applied. So Abu Bakr who also was the head of state followed in these footsteps, so did Umar ibn al-khattab. I.e. all these khulafah did not accept that the muslims could have more that one leader, that the shariah is to be applied upon all people, that the people are not the source of legislation rather it is the shariah.
When new technology comes out, it does not mean that the gonernment system needs to change as Islam addresses the human being and not the technology.As an example, at the time of the Prophet people wanted to have sexual relations as the Instict of sexuality is part of human beings. 1400 years down the line this instict remains and so the way islam regulates this instinct is the same. people still eat, sleep, go to the toilet, want to worship want to buy and sell. All these needs still exist but islam regulates them and allows us to use different means to satisfy them. E.g Islam says that you can purchase things based on the offer and acceptance policy. i.e. that the seller can decide the price and the buyer has an option if he wants to buy or reject. This rule can be applied to the internet purchasing as it still follows this rule. So Islam allows the accepting and utilisation of technology so long as it is not used in the field of Haraam.
Therefore, Islam has the ability to give solutions to new problems that face human beings and hence there is no need to go to another source or system.
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
Can u explain what u really mean by Islamic state? Islam doesnt force any particular syatem of goverernance but gives guidelines for how form an effective system . The prime reason for that is Islam is a universal religion and it had to spread all over the world. If it was confined to a particular structure it would not had been effective for peopels living in different geographic regions of the world. n Saudia arabia people lived in tribes but in other parts people lived in different structures. Even in Sahaba karam's times the political sructure was always changing and evolving keeping in view the dramatic rise of Islamic civilization. Therefore Govt in the times of Hazrat Abu Bakr was entirely different from Hazrat Umer's or Hazrat Ali's. We make a very stupid assumption when we say shariat should be implemented when we try to actually try to recreate those old times.. only laws of an Islamic country should be according to Quran and Sunnah and not contradict them. An example was taliban's shariat when the courts they established had a look of 1400 years old settings..they even carried old rusted swords! Islam is a major force in the world today and there are several Islamic countries and have their own political structures and some have laws which are closer to Islam than others.
In Pakistan there is a wide vacuum of social justice. Implementing directly shariat without justice would result in massive hardship on poor people. One example is the implementation of blasphemy law without taking precautions that it can be used to take unfortunate turn . Most of the people who were blamed were never given chance to prove their innocence and once blamed could never take out that stigma from there lives even they were innocents. Zia cut off poor peoples hands but never touched rich people. Onecan see that only 11 hands were cut in first 400 years of Islamic history since hadd conditions were very difficult to fulfill.. Hazrat Umer didnt used hadd for years as there was a famine and people under hunger cant be prosecuted under hadd!
[/quote]
Degas, I have to admit it, that was one hell of an answer!!!
Too bad, every hizb-ul-tahrir member, who do not have much support and an argument will in the end start calling you an enemy of islam in the end...
Khalifa, no one is arguing about rules and regulations as set forward by the Quran.
we are talking about govt structures - like what form of representation should there be in a govt?
Or should there be no representation, and only one head of state?
And what mechanisms do we use to ensure the leader(s) aren't corrupt, and misusing people while making it seem like they're respecting Islam? And who's watching these mechanisms to make them work, and who's watching the watchers?
Are we to have a democracy? If so - parliamentary form , or presedential form? Both are viable, as long as the laws are Islamic!
Do you know that Egypt has justified its form of Govt ( in terms of structure) , as Islamically acceptable? How many here would accept their system as Islamic?
Are we to have departments to handle different issues, or is it all to be handled by one man, or one group of people? If we have departments, how are the leaders to be chosen? How are the departments supposed to be arranged?
How do these departments communicate with the leader(s) of the state?
What role do people have in the govt? What educational requirements are there for the leaders?
If so, how far can the media go to investigate the actions of the leader(s)? Can they investigate at all? Can they even exist?
How does the leader communicate with the people?
How can a leader make sure that everyone is fed? By creating new jobs or just relying on the Zakat system alone? How can one enforce giving of the Zakat? Is it to be collected by the leader, or other private organizations, or can the people choose how to distribute the zakat?
How do different ethnicities get respect and special attention for their needs? How do different ethnicities get equal representation? Or is representation not to be based on ethnicity, but by numbers of people in that ethnicity?
How does the government operate in a time of emergency? What is an emergency to the Islamic state?
What are the guidelines for Jihaad? I say this because you have a group of muslims supporting the 9-11 attacks as Jihaad! Meanwhile, many other muslims say this is not Jihaad? Who has the final say, and what if the final say is Unislamic? Can the people DO anything about it, or will they face persecution?
There are many questions that need to be answered by those who advocate an Islamic system, becuase its precisely these people who don't know what running a country is about.
The main fear is that these systems will be abused! You see the Hudood Ordinance being abused in Pakistan - yet you see NO ONE here who advocates a khalifa coming up with some suggestions on how to make sure this rule is implemented correctly!
I dont know much myself, but I do know that no one group of people will be able to come up with UNIFORM answers for my questions.
[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
**Khalifa, no one is arguing about rules and regulations as set forward by the Quran.
we are talking about govt structures - like what form of representation should there be in a govt?
Or should there be no representation, and only one head of state?**
Hizb ut tahrir has released many books discussing the details of the government structure and the type of representation. I would love to cut and paste the books but obviously no one would read them. But i can answer your questions in a simplistic fashion.
And what mechanisms do we use to ensure the leader(s) aren't corrupt, and misusing people while making it seem like they're respecting Islam? And who's watching these mechanisms to make them work, and who's watching the watchers?
The Islamic structure of government is unique, it is not democratic or a confederate, rather it is a unitary system. Taking the ruler to account is not democracy rather it is called accountability and the islamic state allows the muslims to select and appoint muslims who represent them and that mechanism is called Majlis ash-Shura or Majlis al-ummah. This body takes the ruler to account for every action he performs, if he misapplies Islam he is accounted and if he implemented Kufr buwa (open kufr) he can be removed from post.
Not only can this mechanism be utilised to account the ruler but every muslim has the ability to take the ruler to task as the Prophet (saw) said in a hadith (which is in the sanad of tirmidhi and abu Dawud), "The best jihaad is a true word spoken in front of a tyrant ruler".
Hence the above are the detailed methods by which Islam allows us to account the ruler.
Are we to have a democracy? If so - parliamentary form , or presedential form? Both are viable, as long as the laws are Islamic!
Democracy is taken from a Greek word 'demos cratos' which means people power. in islam the power is to the Shariah and not to the people. In a democratic government (presidential or parliamentary) people sit together and make laws. One of the names of Allah is al-Hakim (the legislator) and no humans have the right to take this attribute.
Plus, to highlight the contradiction of a democratic system of government with the islamic khilafah system,according to democracy, if out of 100 people 51 said that homosexuality should be allowed, then according to a democratic system it would be made into a law as the majority votes count. In islam the muslims do not have a choice and hence they submit to the rules of Allah (swt). New problems such as cloning, transplaning organs, abortion etc. must be referred back to the Quran and sunnah in order to find Allah's verdict, this process is called Ijtihad.
Do you know that Egypt has justified its form of Govt ( in terms of structure) , as Islamically acceptable? How many here would accept their system as Islamic?
Egypt was one of the first to make peace with israel, a treaty that is not allowed in Islam as Islamic land has been occupied. Not only that but people are arrested for having beards, what kind of islamic government is this?
Are we to have departments to handle different issues, or is it all to be handled by one man, or one group of people? If we have departments, how are the leaders to be chosen? How are the departments supposed to be arranged?
Good question. In Islam all the mandatory powers belong to the khalifah. However he can appoint and delgate others to undertake tasks. The state is founded on eight pillars:
- The Khaleefah
- Delegated Assistants
- The Executive Assistants
- The Ameer of Jihad
- The Governors (Walis)
- The Judiciary
- The Administrative Departments
- The Council of the Ummah
For each of these positions there are many evidenses from the Quran and the sunnah.
How do these departments communicate with the leader(s) of the state?
Through various means i.e. talking, email, phone etc...
What role do people have in the govt
According to Islam, the objective of the government is to look after the affairs of the society by applying islam upon the citizens (muslims and non muslims). The specific roles can vary, i.e. executive, judiciary etc...
What educational requirements are there for the leaders?
According to Islam, if the person can fulfil the criteria laid out by islam then he can be the Khalifah. The criteria is:
1.The Khaleefah must be Muslim
2.The Khaleefah must be male
3.The Khaleefah must be mature
4.The Khaleefah must be sane
5.The Khaleefah must be just
6.The Khaleefah must be a freeman
7.The Khaleefah must be able to carry out the task of the Khilafah
Again, all of these conditions are not made up but they have evidensed from the Quran and Sunnah. Every thing we say has to be backed up by these sourtces as the Prophet said that, "whoever does an action that is not from this matter (islam), it is rejected".
How does the leader communicate with the people?
He can either directly speak to them as was the case of the previous khulafah or he can speak to the Majlis al-ummah who represents the ummah. There are obviously other ways of communication that can be used.
How can a leader make sure that everyone is fed? By creating new jobs or just relying on the Zakat system alone?
As ruling in islam means looking after the affairs of the socity, Islam has to ensure the basic needs of all the citizens are provided as the Propher (saw) said,"The son of Adam has the right to food, clothing and shelter". Hence the Islamic state would provide this as was done in the past.
How can one enforce giving of the Zakat? Is it to be collected by the leader, or other private organizations, or can the people choose how to distribute the zakat?
Just like in the western world, certain taxes are imposed via the state, the Islamic state imposes the Zakat upon the muslims and the poll tax upon the non muslims. There are other taxes such as ushr and fai which are taken to generate funds so that they can be distrobuted to the people. abu Bakr showed a great example of how zakat and other taxes are collected.
How do different ethnicities get respect and special attention for their needs? How do different ethnicities get equal representation? Or is representation not to be based on ethnicity, but by numbers of people in that ethnicity?
Islam does not recognise ethnic groups as it looks upon all peoples as human beings and if they live under the Islamic Khilafah state then they are citizens and are treated as the same way as muslims are treated. In fact the equal treatment of non muslims led thoudsands to embrace islam. Never the less, the same penal code and transactions are implemented upon all citizens and each person is given care.
How does the government operate in a time of emergency? What is an emergency to the Islamic state?
This is a vague question and requires more reality to it.
What are the guidelines for Jihaad
Our reference point is the kitaab and the sunnah hence we follow the guidelines mentioned in them and again detailed rules for jihaad arer laid down, i.e. when can an Islamic state fight, what treaties can it have with other nations etc...
if more explanation is needed, ask.
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