Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
Okay lets say I agree with this whole lets kill other muslims idea. Why send in our troops? Simply load up a few F-16s and drop a payload of bombs in people?
Learn something from the americans. Our Military hasn't fought a war in 25 years and they can't even learn the mistakes others are making.
People like you will be crying the most if a full scale assault is done against FATA. I mean, why not just go straight to the nukes, right?
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
First of all, war on terror is really Pakistani war, only name ‘War on terror’ is American. Pakistan was the first country (and probably even now, the only country) in the world where government needed a special court ‘Anti-terrorist court’, and that happened much before President Musharraf came to power. If there was no such thing (terrorism) happening in Pakistan than why Nawaz government started Anti-terrorist court?
Just imagine that USA is not suffering from any terrorism. American is peaceful and not one suicide bombing event happened in USA whereas Pakistan is seeing body less head since long time (much before 9-11). Actually even before 9/11, many criminals involved in terrorism across Pakistan were taking refuge in Tribal areas and especially Afghanistan (under Taliban), and when ever Pakistan asked Taliban to hand them over, Taliban always ignored Pakistan request. Retarded follower of Mullah Umar was partner to all those terrorists and was encouraging terrorism in Pakistan.
Even today, these retarded terrorist are spreading their terrorism all over Pakistan, and most Pakistanis (except retards like them) are fed up from these terrorist retards. If Pakistan government and Pakistan army does not act against them than who would? Actually, American war on terror gave Pakistan an opportunity to try to tackle these terrorists, else slowly they were becoming stronger day by day, and it was possible that if they were not tackled, Pakistan would have seen Taliban like government in Pakistan, lashing and beheading people.
As for doing indiscriminate bombing over these retards taking refuge in FATA, that would be stupid. There are many innocent Pakistanis who live there too. The difference between American actions and Pakistan action is that, for USA none of the people in FATA are Americans so American would not care, but as for Pakistan, most in FATA are Pakistanis. It is easy for American to do carpet bombing (or even nuke the area or use chemical weapons) all over FATA and flatten the area, killing all living there indiscriminately if American have a free hand (something they could not do in Afghanistan or Iraq, as they went in Afghanistan and Iraq to extend their control over that land, but they have no interest in FATA), but for Pakistan, it is difficult to do even selective bombing in FATA as Pakistani forces have to think of innocent Pakistani citizens living there.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
Well said Saleem. These people have short memories, and don't even recall the days when shias were being killed almost daily by jihadi bandars when then went to hide under Taliban.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
The thing I do not understand is, where are the tribals getting their rocket launchers & advanced weapons and who are the leaders?
Rather than fight them head-on, why not stop their supply source.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
The thing I do not understand is, where are the tribals getting their rocket launchers & advanced weapons and who are the leaders?
Rather than fight them head-on, why not stop their supply source.
Major mistake is to dismiss them as tribals. They're better educated (in what matters) than the pakistan military. Better built, trained and motivated.
As to source of equipment - does it really surprise anyone that their source is all (mostly) from within pakistan military?
This is truly a case of pakistan self immolating. Thanks to decades of unwarranted focus on neigbors and no focus internally - which let the religious cancer spread to army and elsewhere
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
Khehkeshan if you think I have a problem with killing muslims you are damn right I do. I however don't play armchair general sitting pretty in the US and UK and openly praising the killing of muslims like you and others. Answer the question. After all they bombed the hell out of Bugti with artillery shells and the like.
Saleem - Define terrorism please pre-9/11. And then post 9/11.
Secondly if the Pakistan army was so worried about civilian casualties (which it isn't. Look at Balochistan), why didn't it try talks on a regular basis? It talked, those didn't work, it moved in and tried to beat everybody into submission. That obviously didn't work.
Now not only are Pakistani troops dying, so are people in FATA, the military morale is low. The people in FATA are unhappy. We have suicide bombing for the first time in our history, our military's most presitigious entities are being made into swiss cheese and you guys see nothing wrong with this whatsoever?
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
Well said Saleem. These people have short memories, and don't even recall the days when shias were being killed almost daily by jihadi bandars when then went to hide under Taliban.
I don't think you understand what you agreed to. The anti-terror laws passed by NS govt had one aim to fight MQM terrorism in Karachi. Nothing more nothing less. As for FATA, military is 110% responsible for whats going on in FATA, and I can tell you today that this war is un-winnable.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
Khehkeshan if you think I have a problem with killing muslims you are damn right I do. I however don't play armchair general sitting pretty in the US and UK and openly praising the killing of muslims like you and others. Answer the question. After all they bombed the hell out of Bugti with artillery shells and the like.
Saleem - Define terrorism please pre-9/11. And then post 9/11.
Secondly if the Pakistan army was so worried about civilian casualties (which it isn't. Look at Balochistan), why didn't it try talks on a regular basis? It talked, those didn't work, it moved in and tried to beat everybody into submission. That obviously didn't work.
Now not only are Pakistani troops dying, so are people in FATA, the military morale is low. The people in FATA are unhappy. We have suicide bombing for the first time in our history, our military's most presitigious entities are being made into swiss cheese and you guys see nothing wrong with this whatsoever?
These barbaric tribal taliban animals are as much muslim as the serbian army in Bosnia could have been considered muslim. Why are you so blind that you cannot even see their unislamic actions of mutilating bodies, beheading, suicide bombing of innocents? To fight them is to fight something like a kharijite rebels, not fellow muslims. Suicide bombings was initiated by the terrorists because Pakistan did not support their Taliban buddies in their futile war against America. If you give in to their terror today on this issue, next it will be some other issue and then some other issue until it will be your family that will be targeted by the suicide bombers.
Pakistan army maybe the most worthless and pathetic fighting force in the world, but that doesn't mean the other side, i.e. taliban jihadis are good muslims and do not deserve to be destroyed. I have always favored letting the Americans mop up FATA. They would do a far better job from the air.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
I don't think you understand what you agreed to. The anti-terror laws passed by NS govt had one aim to fight MQM terrorism in Karachi. Nothing more nothing less. As for FATA, military is 110% responsible for whats going on in FATA, and I can tell you today that this war is un-winnable.
Whatever their original intent was, today they are mostly used against Punjabi rapists and Islamic terrorists.
The jihadi taliban are responsible for their brutality against their own people, no one else. They deserve to be punished for their crimes, no matter who does the punishing. You may think the war is un-winnable, but losing is not an option for Pakistan. If taliban win in Pakistan, Pakistan will break up. Period.
People in punjab and nwfp may want to live under taliban, I don't know, but not in Sindh, where a completely different type of Islam is followed.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
You may think the war is un-winnable, but losing is not an option for Pakistan. If taliban win in Pakistan, Pakistan will break up. Period.
I think we will have low intensity Islamic insurgency for long time to come like in Algeria. BTW, I don't have problem with war, I have problem b/c I think we're fighting this not for ourselves, but to enhance foreign interest in our region which is not in our interest. In other words, we're making more mistakes to cover previous mistakes, and in this game same characters are involved ie Pakistani army and American global imperialism. Mark my words nothing good will come out of this.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
i agree..this war is not winable.....this foolish Musharraf dont know...that by guerilla war ..they have defeated Royal army..in 1800's..recently...they have crushed Red Army...they have defeated the forces of 3 continents....in Iraq....and pakistan army will ...be a cake pie for them....
and one more thing...never ever in military history..guerilla fight can ever take place without the support of local residents..see in kashmir 3 4 years back...700,000 indians forces was helpless in front of few thousands mujahideen..with full support..food..shelter ..protection from local occupied kasmiries....
due to ...shameless policiy of Musahharf for fighting the war for US ..and our army as a fodder of US forces....as a result..the tribal people 200% full support is with all those who are fighting US in Afghanistan..and anybody who will secure US ..will be there enemy..like Musharraf.... 4 attempts of suicide on him..is that result of his policy..of fighting US war in pakistan.....
thats why tribal people are supporting talibans....with thier hearts..some may differ ..but majority is with them..as tribal customs...they always stand by ..each other against the foriegn oppression...
Musharraf must realize that thier tribal set up..thier hundreads of years fighting experience and negociate politically...not with guns....otherwise result is in front of us...280 soldiers were caught like lolly pops....
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
I think we will have low intensity Islamic insurgency for long time to come like in Algeria. BTW, I don't have problem with war, I have problem b/c I think we're fighting this not for ourselves, but to enhance foreign interest in our region which is not in our interest. In other words, we're making more mistakes to cover previous mistakes, and in this game same characters are involved ie Pakistani army and American global imperialism. Mark my words nothing good will come out of this.
Your solution is too surrender to taliban then? Do you realize the consequences of that? Just think of the consequences of soviet withdrawal from afghanistan and how it emboldened the jihadis. I do agree that the way the army is fighting the war is wrong. ISI has its feet in both sides.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
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.they have defeated Royal army..in 1800's.
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See, I still don't get that how the "victorious" afghans gave [sold] half their pashtuns that afghans ***** about now to the royal "losers"????
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
money...my dear ..money..for 30 yerars of war...no money at all...in afghnstan..poverty is biggest factor...
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
I agree with Kehkashan. The point is ISI is playing double game. Locally, it is siding with Taleban and strengthening religious elements...but when pressured, it passes intelligence to NATO/US...So it is conspiring with as well as against Taleban...But Pakistan overall never have had a consistent policy...
If Army proceeded a hard-way, that would be a radical turn in the events...As a consequence, all Pashtuns would be aligned irrespective of political and ideological divide...The alternative is, liberal and secular nationalist forces are supported but the establishment is wary of that because that would enhance Pashtuns's strength for autonomy...That is what Pakistani establishment has always avoided...It has always tried to replace Pashtun nationalism with Islamic patriotism...So the support to MMA and Taleban...
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
^ The problem is that pashtun nationalism brings in the awghol involvement from across the border. Basically, it is punjabi chauvinism and national security [some legitimate issues] interwined that can be really explosive.
I think section of pakistan military still haven't lost all on taliban since northern alliance isn't a good alternative..
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
Hahah, at least some members here have accepted Pakistan's support to Taleban...
^ The problem is that pashtun nationalism brings in the awghol involvement from across the border. Basically, it is punjabi chauvinism and national security [some legitimate issues] interwined that can be really explosive.
And whose involvement did/do Sindhi, Baluchi, and Bangali nationalism brought/bring in?...That invalidates you argument...The actual problem isn't the Afghan involvement but the fake and artificial nature of Pakistani nationhood which the Paki establishment is trying to buttress and keep intact with Islam and force instead of an equitable contract between nationalities garuanteeing genuine representation and autonomy to constituent nationalities ...
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I think section of pakistan military still haven't lost all on taliban since northern alliance isn't a good alternative..
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The only way for Pakistan to become a stable state is to be transformed into a genuine federation with full autonomy to the constituent nations/nationalities...Even an ordinary student of history can understand that the Paklistan's hand in spreading Islamic militancy and political Islam is due to its domination by Punjabis and to a certain degree by Muhajirs to the exclusion of all others...These communities fear that share to other nationalities would lead to a decline in their influence (and prosperity)...So their tendency to neutralise Pashtun, Sindhi, Baluchi, Muhajir, etc. nationalism with Islam...
The sooner the international community realises this point and helps Pakistan to transform, the better for the inhabitants of Pakistan, region, and the world.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
So what do you make of the afghan hostility [with india's behest many times] by the afghans right in 1947? Does that make anyone feel "welcome"? Is it good muslim attitude? Don't be such a chauvinist that you forget what is right and wrong.
PS Quit the diatribe about mahajir this and that. Mahajirs have been out of the bureaucracy / power center since islamabad was made in the sixties [ayub khan came to power] until musharraf. Now, that is another story that he needs his army [majority punjabi and pashtun] to maintain order but let us not go there. Your line of thought can be applied to pathans as well. Many pathans have been rulers starting like ayub and yahya. Pathans are part of that core of the army, along with punjabis, that comes to rule pakistan every few years so it should be others who should be pointing fingers at you. Now, if you were a sindhi or balochi hari, I could see your point but at least for next time, try to rationalize your claims with the truth other there for pathans.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
So what do you make of the afghan hostility [with india's behest many times] by the afghans right in 1947? Does that make anyone feel "welcome"? Is it good muslim attitude? Don't be such a chauvinist that you forget what is right and wrong.
What is good Muslim attitude on the contrary...to try to annex lands of other nations using the pretext of Islam or imposing an imperial-style state structure on people and keeping cultures and nations in chains...and commiting worst genocide of Banglis... their only fault being a demand for equitable share in power and resources...Pakistani attitude at least is not an example of good Islamic behaiour (it is rather worst)...
You would not plunder your neighbour because he is your Muslim brother...Never forget that before British, Pashtun land to the east of Indus was a part of Afghanistan ...People to both sides of the divide are not only bound together by history culture, religion, geogrpagy, and history but also religion... Concern, on the part of Afghanistan, for co-ethnists was but natural...To nullify these concerns and for the sake of Pakistan's stability and good Muslim behavior, the Pakistani establishment should have accepted the rights of others but alas it didn't...
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PS Quit the diatribe about mahajir this and that. Mahajirs have been out of the bureaucracy / power center since islamabad was made in the sixties [ayub khan came to power] until musharraf. Now, that is another story that he needs his army [majority punjabi and pashtun] to maintain order but let us not go there. Your line of thought can be applied to pathans as well. Many pathans have been rulers starting like ayub and yahya. Pathans are part of that core of the army, along with punjabis, that comes to rule pakistan every few years so it should be others who should be pointing fingers at you. Now, if you were a sindhi or balochi hari, I could see your point but at least for next time, try to rationalize your claims with the truth other there for pathans.
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Don't tell me man! Ayub Khan made claims to be a Pashtun but didn't know a word of Pashto ... As for Yahya Khan, the man was born in Punjab and was a Persian speaker...Don't put irrelevant people into our lot...The Pashtun generals in Army were Gen Akbar Khan, Gen Azam Khan, Gen Quli Khan, Gen Gul Hassan, Gen Kakar, Gen Fazlul Haq, Gen Imran, etc. For your kind information Muhajirs form the second dominent group in the officer cadres of Pakistan Army after Punjabis...Pashtuns are only the third...To affirn this, you can pick the statistics of past one decade and analyze it for yourself...In civil bureaucracy, they have a greater share than their size...
But leave that aside...What about media, industry, Banking sector, etc.?
And I harbor no ill-will about common Muhajirs or Punjabis (i have many best friends among them) but fact is fact that should not be suppressed or misstated.
Re: Pakistan troops 'lose faith in war on terror'
Don't tell me man! Ayub Khan made claims to be a Pashtun but didn't know a word of Pashto ... As for Yahya Khan, the man was born in Punjab and was a Persian speaker...Don't put irrelevant people into our lot...The Pashtun generals in Army were Gen Akbar Khan, Gen Azam Khan, Gen Quli Khan, Gen Gul Hassan, Gen Kakar, Gen Fazlul Haq, Gen Imran, etc. For your kind information Muhajirs form the second dominent group in the officer cadres of Pakistan Army after Punjabis...Pashtuns are only the third...To affirn this, you can pick the statistics of past one decade and analyze it for yourself...In civil bureaucracy, they have a greater share than their size...
Gen Waheed Kakar?? The one who joined US think tank on some "strategy"? Fazlul Haq was later governor of NWFP if I remember correctly?